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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts 
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You're confused about something, it's just a matter of determining exactly where your confusion lies.
Sub-Rosa and n-strippers (at least as both relate to Mr. England) are one-and-the-same. |
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Banedon New user 74 Posts
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My apologies. Artie cleared up my confusion via PM. I had my terms right but I was confusing two different products. Sub-Rosa just got moved up a bunch of slots in my list of priority purchases.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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(Accordingly from Wikipedia)
The Latin phrase sub rosa means "under the rose", and is used in English to denote secrecy or confidentiality. The rose as a symbol of secrecy has an ancient history. The rose has sometimes been said to have been the emblem of the god Horus in ancient Egypt. The idea of Horus being linked to the rose probably arises from Greek and Roman cultural cross-transmission of myths from Egypt. Firstly, the rose's connotation of secrecy dates back also to Greek mythology. Aphrodite gave a rose to her son Eros, the god of love; he, in turn, gave it to Harpocrates, the god of silence and a Greek name for a form of Horus, to ensure that his mother's indiscretions (or those of the gods in general, in other accounts) were not disclosed. Secondly, in Egypt, the rose was actually sacred to Isis but this appears to have been during the Roman period of Egyptian history. Later, the Greeks and Romans translated the god's Egyptian name Heru-pa-khered as Harpocrates and regarded him as the god of silence. The association of Harpocrates with silence and secrecy originates from a misunderstanding of Egyptian depictions of the god. Heru-pa-khered was represented as a naked youth with a finger-to-mouth gesture—in Egyptian artwork this gesture imitates the hieroglyph for child and is used to represent youth, but was misunderstood by later Greeks and Romans as a gesture for silence. Paintings of roses on the ceilings of Roman banquet rooms were also a reminder that things said under the influence of wine (sub vino) should also remain sub rosa. More recently, "sub rosa" activities have become a byword for covert operations, usually by security services. Originating primarily in the Canadian and American special forces, this meaning has been gradually spreading to other countries and in particular the United Kingdom. What a history for the term "sub rosa." It is incredible how history evolves and the ultimate achievement for the term of sub rosa now is N-STRIPPERS????? WOW!!! I hope we don't get hit with lightning bolts from the heavens thrown by the angry gods. (Am I missing something here?) 
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1406 Posts
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Geno Munari's went over this topic in 1994, it's still available (DVD) from Houdini's Magic.
Almost exactly the same items; History; Devices; How to make a deck; and how to use it. Not as polished as Sub-Rosa and Jason does a better job overall, but one of the issues was that this technique is not under ground. |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts
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Although rudimentary in nature (it was homemade), Geno's DVD/video was certainly one of the first to bring the general subject to the public conscience in terms of a teaching device that could be purchased, and which would teach something (at the time) that was somewhat unknown outside of the assorted inner-circles.
BUT, there was a lot of information missing from Geno's video, whether that was by design or by happenstance remains to be seen. It's also worth pointing out that Geno at no point used any references that would have tipped "N-Strippers" (a word hustlers didn't use at the time) ... Geno used the terms "convex and concave" strippers to describe what was on his video. Geno's video tended to require the viewer to use the information provided as a springboard to continue to make discoveries on their own. What I'm saying is that it's a stretch to compare Geno's video to Jason's video. Jason teaches the viewer the specifics of "N-Strippers", Geno teaches the viewer about convex and concave strippers and leaves the road to "N-Strippers" up to the viewer to discover on their own. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote: As mentioned by Artie Fufkin (and if I may expand a little) Munari's video on "strippers" was a ground breaking achievement in the sense that it was the first of its kind on video. Since Munari was originally in the gambling business and opened up his magic stores later, he still had that gambling orientation (especially shown in his casino cheating video), as opposed to exclusively being a magician type. (That gambling orientation is invaluable in my opinion.) The original Munari tape described the work that cheaters were actually using under fire at the time (and indeed for the previous 100 plus years). He apparently got some good advice from Charlie Miller on this work. Miller was pretty knowledgeable but did not have the "belly" to move under fire, no pun intended. The most important part of the video was the making of "concave" strippers as opposed to "bellies." The magician hyped "N-Strippers" are really a variation of concaves and each has its unique advantages and disadvantages. In fact, there are a number of different ways that the work can be put on, where it can be put, how it can be used and the variations in combinations to be pulled and how applied. In fact, I was originally shown the use of strippers and how they were used in a Gin game by Jackie Newton (an old time card hustler who specialized in beating other hustlers.) His use of Gin Rummy strippers was extremely clever and very powerful in his hands. Another top hustler, Frankie Z (who taught me some great things for use under fire, both in casinos and in private games), used them differently in Gin but it was also very clever and "off-beat." Both these methods would be different from what most on this board would imagine. (What I learned from people like this was the real key to getting the money was being "off-beat" and having "grift sense," not in pretty work or fancy techniques, which for the most part are often impractical except for demos.) Another old time hustler showed me how they were using the work in the 21 games in Vegas at the time and it was incredibly powerful and deceptive. (It was used to beat the house, not the players.) I would say that 99% of expose/demonstrator magicians would have little or no understanding as to what I am referring to here. The huge difference between magicians and cheats is magicians concentrate on the minutia of the work and esoteric techniques which are mostly only valid and usable for demonstrations, whereas the cheats concentrate on how to use the work to get the money. The approach and use is completely different and most will perhaps find this statement incomprehensible, figuring that both are one in the same. I suggest they are not and in some cases not even close. The Munari tape has some good information although it is not up to the slick modern day production standards of today and therefore perhaps not as exciting or as "snazzy" to most. |
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Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Cagliostro,
You are 100% right and hit the nail on the head....the real secret of strippers is not the technology or how to pull them. The best information, which is hard to find, is how to use strippers to gain an edge or guarantee a win in a mock card game....because we all know that using strippers in any game when playing for money is illegal. The academic discussion of how to use them in Gin, blackjack, poker variations, etc. is mathematically interesting to me. Most magicians will simply want to control the 4 aces.
Long Island,
New York |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1729 Posts
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And he's sold almost 3 dozen copies!
Ok, so that number is a bit of an exaggeration. But the truth of the matter is that Geno's tape/DVD, while early and informationally very good, just wasn't SEEN by many magicians. Geno sold them in his shops to be sure, but when was the last time you saw a copy of that tape/DVD sold in any other brick and mortar magic shop? My original claim that negs were a little-known move outside of serious card guys still stands. The people that read the Gambling Spot may think differently, but apparently you all have a difficult time understanding the concept of a self-selected population. Incidentally, I'm still willing to walk around a major magic convention (not a convention of card guys) and ask people if they can explain what "N-Strippers" or "negative strippers" are (or any other name you want to call them). I'll pay you $100 for every person who knows what they are. You pay me $20 for every person that doesn't. We'll stop whenever you wish, which I suspect will be very, very quickly. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2015, JasonEngland wrote: WOW. I did not know he sold that many. I'm impressed at the success of this entrepreneurial endeavor. From what I recall, Munari had three or four VHS tapes that he "home" produced, including the one on strippers and of course the market for them was very small. I don't think they were designed for the mass magician market or as a serious marketing endeavor. I don't even know what Munari's justification was for producing his tapes, whether for posterity or simply to be the first to come out with this info on VHS which was and still is not known to most magicians. His VHS/DVDs have some good information on them but I don't think he expected many sales of these tapes. Since I am not part of the "magic" crowd, I can't say for certain but it seems like Munari's tapes would be of little value to most magician types. From what I can see, what magicians know about card table chicanery isn't a consideration. I don't hang around magicians but would assume most magicians know little about these things or at most have a cursory knowledge. For example, how many magicians know what an Elevator Hop is? Personally, I don't think what magicians do or don't know is a valid test of card table chicanery. Quote:
My original claim that negs were a little-known move outside of serious card guys still stands. I agree. In fact, I would say they were almost completely unknown to most, including most members on this BB until David Malik came out with his Cheating at Hold'em DVD. That revelation made more people aware that there was such a gaff. I believe that even most who knew about strippers did not know what N-Strippers were until Malik's revelation. Of course, more people are now aware of the concept today than even five years ago but for the most part I would also say that although they are more commonly known today, they are still relatively unknown. Quote:
Incidentally, I'm still willing to walk around a major magic convention (not a convention of card guys) and ask people if they can explain what "N-Strippers" or "negative strippers" are (or any other name you want to call them). Sounds like a very exciting and productive pursuit to engage in. What a great way to spend an afternoon or a complete day for that matter. Thanks for the open invitation but regretfully it is really not on my immediate "to-do" list. Doing something like this is really more in the province of: "Different strokes for different folks." 
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1406 Posts
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Jason are you going to be at the Genii convention in Orlando Florida?
Chrismas might be early for you this year. 
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2015, JasonEngland wrote: See ... I've been right all along
But seriously, that we're always talking throughout this forum about a "self-selected population" (to use Jason's term) pretty much has to be an ongoing given. The percentage of the actual general population that's interested in what we discuss in this forum day in and day out is probably barely above zero ... and even in the magic community, I would bet (see what I did there) that you're still talking less than 5 percent of the total number of card magicians who are even remotely interested in this stuff ... probably a couple of percentage points lower in fact. The number of magicians who would simply like to know the secrets is probably higher, but most of those folks just want the information, and have no intention of doing anything with it. ...so in that sense, three dozen would actually be quite a lot!! BTW, this post and 25 cents will get you a cup of 
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote: Where can you still buy a 25 cent cup of coffee? |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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I should add for the sake of completeness to my post of Sep 14, 2015 05:24 pm above, that even though the term "N-Strippers" and the specific work itself were relatively unknown among most card table cognoscenti and almost all magicians prior to Malik's exposure, anyone who had Munari's VHS on strippers or maybe made up a deck or two of concaves and/or worked with them would readily detect N-Strippers. If they were checking the deck as such, it should be readily apparent to them that there was "stripper" work on the cards.
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2015, Cagliostro wrote: I'm pretty low-rent Cag! |
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts
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I still don't like this stuff to be discussed openly.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts
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Not much this forum can do to regulate what people say, and who they decide to say (or sell) it to.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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I had an exchange with AMcD back in 2013 on this BB regarding N-Strippers. I retained it on my computer because it was quite interesting in my opinion and the members can look back and get all the other posts on that threat if they so desire by doing a search.
This may upset some on this BB, but that is not my intent and this is just my opinion. So for better or worse, here it is: Quote:
I think N-Strippers are a good demo item, both to use deceptively as part of a demo trick and to use in a very inferior way by just by showing how you pull them as an expose. Can they be use deceptively in a game? Of course they can be used deceptively. So can regular concave strippers be used deceptively but it depends on the game. It ALWAYS depends on the game, how knowledgeable the players are, how observant they are and how cleverly the gaff is played. That is ALWAYS the primary consideration no matter what you are doing. Are there some clever things you can do with N-Strippers? Of course there are, but there are a lot of other clever things that can be done in a game. So what? It doesn't matter what clever things you can do because if the players can nail concaves, your clever things will be to no avail. If you can detect concave strippers you can detect N-Strippers. It is just that simple. I think AMcD's comments are interesting especially since he is going to or has produced a booklet on N-Strippers. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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How knowledgeable the players are is a mystery. Those who know don’t talk and those who speak don’t know.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2015, tommy wrote: Well, except when those who know choose to speak ... which was Andrews point. |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2015, tommy wrote: It really doesn't take very long to figure out, with a good degree certainty, which players are observant and what they are observant about. Some pay little attention; others lead you to conclude they are looking for specific things. Sure, it can be concealed but most don't try. Even most pit bosses and floor men in a casino, when they sense something is wrong almost go on point. It is quite obvious. Of course, nowadays with surveillance, it the pit person is clever and devious he will turn his back to the game in question, play the IG (ignoramus) and have surveillance tape the game. But even then, if it is a big action game and something is happening and NO ONE is watching, that is a tip-off in and of itself. I think Scarne mentioned in Scarne on Cards (and I paraphrase from memory), that a cheat can sense a suspicious player with the celerity of a lie detector. |
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Posted: Jun 29, 2015 03:44 pm 
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