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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts 
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The cross cut force is an extremely powerful tool. If as a performer you are unable to exploit its power then please don't use it and choose something else.
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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On Dec 3, 2015, Uli Weigel wrote: RiderBacks, would you say, that the Jay Ose False Cut also fools nobody? That's a good question, and I have my own anwer. I avoid these kinds of cuts (and especially avoid the flourishy in-the-hands versions). This for two reasons. First, I try (within some limits) not to be too flashy with cards. Second, I think these moves create confusion, not magic. I believe that the appropriate spectator response to cuts in this style is, "I don't know what you just did. Maybe you cut the deck. Maybe you didn't." (That's what the *intelligent* spectator's response would be, at least.) For a tabled false cut, I would prefer to substitute an up-the-ladder sequence. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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An up the ladder sequence is much flashier than an Ose False Cut.
Ose's is extremely deceptive. Up The Ladder is wonderful but conveys an air of great skill and manipulation by the performer. Both are excellent but are in no way interchangeable. You wouldnt catch Ted Lesley or Barrie Richardson doing an up the ladder but they have devastated intelligent, high paying, sophisticated audiences for decades with subtle procedures like the cross cut and the Ose. |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts
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On Dec 3, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: Your linking the Ose Cut with "being too flashy with cards" makes me wonder whether you even know what the Ose Cut is. There are few false cuts less flashy than Jay Ose's. (If you do know the move, it makes your comments even more ridiculous.) "Second, I think these moves create confusion, not magic." All false cuts rely on confusing the audience as to which packet is which. The trick is to keep them from realizing it--indeed, to leave them convinced that they followed exactly what happened. And false cuts are not supposed to create magic. They're supposed to create the belief that the cards are in a different order than they were before. Few false cuts achieve those goals better than Jay Ose's. Your constant evoking of a ghost chorus of "*intelligent* spectators," "highly intelligent individuals," "intelligent Ph.D.s," and "brilliant people I hang around" who all conveniently happen to see things your way, is a perfect example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy. If a spectator doesn't react the way you think he should, it just proves that he's not truly intelligent. (If you can't understand the link below, perhaps you can get one of those "brilliant people" you hang around to explain it to you.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman RiderBacks' motto: Always wrong; never in doubt. |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2015, Count Lustig wrote: Your linking the Ose Cut with "being too flashy with cards" makes me wonder whether you even know what the Ose Cut is. There are few false cuts less flashy than Jay Ose's. (If you do know the move, it makes your comments even more ridiculous.) Reading is hard for some people. Apparently reading is hard for you. I recommend that you reread my comments to which you replied and try to achieve some modicum of understanding. I did not say that Jay Ose's cut was flashy. You're showing you foolishness off. Stop pretending that confusion results in magic. If you are asked to cut the cards while playing a serious game of poker, and you execute some hard to follow ****, you might just get shot. Who cares about that, of course. Swindling others isn't my game. I'm interested in magic, not snookering gambers. So make it clean and fair. Oh ****. Making it clean and fair works for magic just as much as it does for cheats! |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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On Dec 4, 2015, Count Lustig wrote: All false cuts rely on confusing the audience as to which packet is which. Meh. You can rely upon confusion if you have to. I recommend not relying upon confusion. Make your moves look clean and fair. Don't settle for relying upon confusion. To do so is to take the lazy way out. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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I hear movement under the bridge...
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts
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On Dec 5, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: "Clean and fair" is a pretty good description of the Jay Ose False Cut. (Look it up some time.) You favor the up-the-ladder cut. Nothing wrong with that. But if you don't realize that the up-the-ladder cut works by confusing the audience as to which packet is which, you don't understand the move. (If the audience realized which packet is which, they would realize that the deck is in the same order.) Both the Ose cut and the up-the-ladder cut are effective because the audience doesn't feel confused. They think they followed what happened. (Kind of like the way you think you know what you're talking about.) |
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts
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The Jay Ose false cut even fools people who know it.
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Jon Racherbaumer observed that the Ose Cut looks more real from the spectator's vantage point than a true triple cut to the table.
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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I'll look up the Jay Ose false cut. I didn't respond with particular knowledge of this false cut. However, generally, these false cuts are done so quickly that you it's very hard to follow the cards. They're also done with a limited number of packets. When a limited number of packets are cut in such a way that it is difficult to follow the cards, the intelligent spectator immediately suspects a false cut. A well-executed up-the-ladder sequence does much less to arouse suspicion. Way too much mixing appears to be going on for it to be suspected false, even in the minds of highly intelligent spectators.
In other news, I actually witnessed the most lowly force/bluff I've ever seen recently. This might actually have a name. If so, I don't know it and I don't want to. First, the magi gave the deck a single ruffle shuffle (preserving top stock, of course.) Then he asked an audience member to pick a number, say, between one and ten. He then dealt that number of cards face down off the top of the deck into the audience member's hand. Next, he picked up the packet in the audience member's hand and showed the audience the bottom card (that'd be the top card of the initial deck). This was supposed to be the randomly chosen card. I carefully observed the audience's reaction. I noticed that at least one adult whispered an explanation of what happened to his buddy. I was unable to determine what the children thought, or how many of the adults noticed this bluff. I am, however, reasonably confident that many, if not most, were completely (and very sadly) fooled. I wonder if defenders of the cross-cut are going to claim this move is permissible? Thankfully, the move was followed by a little bit of misdirection, but it clearly wasn't enough misdirection for any adult with a working brain. Maybe it played well for the children, but I couldn't really tell. I sort of think that the children present were probably not sure what to think of the trick. As an aside, I thought the performer's show was overall alright. Many people were puzzled by at least some (if not all) of the effects. I was also puzzled by one or two, and if you manage to puzzle me on occasion, I'm happy to say you're doing fine. |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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On Dec 4, 2015, Count Lustig wrote: You favor the up-the-ladder cut. Nothing wrong with that. But if you don't realize that the up-the-ladder cut works by confusing the audience as to which packet is which, you don't understand the move. (If the audience realized which packet is which, they would realize that the deck is in the same order.) Both the Ose cut and the up-the-ladder cut are effective because the audience doesn't feel confused. They think they followed what happened. (Kind of like the way you think you know what you're talking about. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. With most tabled false cuts using small numbers of packets, intelligent people feel confused. Intelligent people do not feel confused by a well-executed up-the-ladder sequence, since they don't expect it to possibly be false. |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts
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On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: Well, I'm sure you must feel that you're making some sort of a point. |
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts
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On Dec 5, 2015, magicfish wrote: It's true. Absolutely one of my favorite techniques in card magic.
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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Peckham Loyal user 225 Posts
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I use it occasionally and it works fine. You need to delay the reveal and the forget the sequence. I think Gary Ouellet had a version of this page n his book, Close Up Illusions.
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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On Dec 6, 2015, Peckham wrote: I use it occasionally and it works fine. You need to delay the reveal and the [sic] forget the sequence. I think Gary Ouellet had a version of this page n his book, Close Up Illusions. Sometimes I'm not sure why I continue this. You do not make magic by adding "time delay." You increase confusion. What kind of hubris must you have to believe that your (polite) spectator is fooled by this nonsense? What they're thinking to themselves is, "Oh crap. I forgot which packet was which. Darnit, why didn't I pay better attention!?" There is no illusion of a real cut created for a remotely intelligent spectator. They know you're doing a magic trick. They expect you to be cheating. They will, and do, realize they haven't been paying close enough attention, and they will suspect that you did not cut the cards fairly. Since they are probably polite, and fault themselves for not keeping better track of a single packet, they won't say anything. But you're not doing magic. |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts
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On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: Because you enjoy looking foolish? Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: Time delay is a form of misdirection. In fact, it's often called "time misdirection." Misdirection is the foundation of magic. No magician needs to apologize for using it. Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: What kind of hubris must you have to believe that you know what a spectator is thinking, not based on what they say, not based on how they act, not based on how they react to the effect, but just based on what you want to believe is true? |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Im having trouble taking this whole thing serious. I suspect we're being pranked.
There is no way a knowledgeable magician can pontificate with such authority ...and have so very little knowledge. He's going to "look up" Ose's Cut. Is he serious? He's unaware of one cardmagic's great weapons from Close-Up Card Magic but he is an authority on false cuts. He refuses to acknowledge the expert treatment given the Crosscut Force by the all time greats. Is this a joke? Now watch? His next post will begin with, "The only joke here is your....." Yawn. |
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Overworked New user 45 Posts
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"You do not make magic by adding "time delay." You increase confusion."
? It is a bit difficult to believe that anyone who would say this has any experience actually performing for people. |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: He's going to "look up" Ose's Cut. Is he serious? I looked it up. Then I snorted coffee out of my nose. Quote:
He's unaware of one cardmagic's great weapons from Close-Up Card Magic but he is an authority on false cuts. I do not consider Ose's False Cut to be "one of card magic's great weapons." I consider it to be a basic, beginner move for a magician who doesn't want to acquire any serious chops. It's simpler than I expected it to be. In fact, you can't get simpler... Thanks to you, I'm now going to be stuck remembering the name of this lowly little move I'll never, ever deploy. Quote:
He refuses to acknowledge the expert treatment given the Crosscut Force by the all time greats. Is this a joke? The expert treatment of the cross-cut force? What are you talking about? That's like talking about some "expert treatment of drying dishes with a dish towel!" Now I know you're just pulling my leg. By the way, Harry Lorayne has published about three million things. Not all of them are going to be good, bud. |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Do you think the Cross cut force fool someone? experiances? (21 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Dec 3, 2015 11:41 pm 
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