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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Zach:
Semi-professional is a fairly new term, and whilst it makes some sense wouldn't it actually go against the primary definition of professional (someone who comfortably supports himself through a particular activity)? I'm not sure, then, that it is a useful term. What say you? Dick: I agree that semi-professional is an odd term - see my reply to Zach above. But name calling and an accusation of trolling? Really, for someone of your age and professional standing that is just disappointing. If a discussion is proving so frustrating that a venomous streak starts to ooze out it might just be best to leave. I think you're making the right choice to have that as your last post. No hard feelings and all the best. It's just the Internet, not worth the stress. mastermindreader: Than you for supporting me against the accusation of trolling! Appreciated. Regarding the difference between meaningful discussion and BS, I think it highly subjective. One man's deep debate is another's small talk. Maybe it reflects the different stages of development they are at - what is profound to a novice may be mundane to a master. I trust, then, that people can make their own choices about whether a thread is worth posting in or not - if the topic seems trivial just pass over. I'm somewhat puzzled, I admit, by those who think a topic beneath them, or just BS, yet who take the time to engage anyway. I guess it's just fun, sometimes, to engage in meaningless small talk |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
I used to use the term Semi-Pro, but stopped when it struck me that from the way I define 'Pro', it's kinda like saying that my wife is half pregnant. You are either, I believe, a Pro, that is you are working full time in a field and making your main income there from or you are a "what?"...hobbyist(?), who does shows sometimes in a professional manner (hopefully).
But, you see that's the problem. I have known full time pros that made me cringe that they were working. How did they work so much? They NEVER did repeat shows. They were very clever marketers and had the ability to get gigs despite a so-so reputation. On the other hand I've recounted my friend who is literally one of the finest performers of magic I've ever watched, but he does shows as he likes, charges huge fees to do so, because he doesn't care a wit if he gets the show and would rather get $1000 per or not work. The hilarious thing is that he's so good that he gets his fee all the time and lots of return gigs and referrals. So, the line between the two Pro and Hobbyist blurs. That's why I think it's important to learn from the best you encounter no matter what their field designation. But, I still think that we need the designations. If I'm talking to someone who I KNOW has been a full time pro for 30+ years and has a killer rep IN the community. He does a couple hundred shows a year or more....he's like E.R. Hutton: THAT's they guy I KNOW I want to talk to and listen to and learn what he has to teach. The Hobbyist no matter how good, only to a limited degree and based on what I know about them. It's not a devaluing of the latter it's a way to sensibly use what time I have available. If you stand behind a magic counter for 30+ years and talk to thousands of 'hobbyists' and hundreds of pros, there is simply a huge difference not only 'what' they talk about, but how much the information can be trusted to be helpful. If one guy has experience over say 10 shows a year, no matter what level the show is at: For a buddy, freeby for hospital peds wing, paid, whatever. And, you can talk to a guy who does 6-8 shows a day for weeks at a time working fairs, etc. Who will have the best information: Probably? I've tried to sift through all the clutter and I've come to the following conclusion (possibly..probably...wrong!) that the reason those of us who consider ourselves pros and have been same for decades at a time get annoyed at times by opinion we don't agree with is that we have all had a basic and similar gestalt of the business. We've had similar experiences in the field that's why when pros recount 'experience' you hear the phrase, "Ha! Yep, that happened to me to." Because, it did. Shows are all different....to an extent and contrary wise they are all the same...to an extent. That's why pros almost never get flustered when things go wrong. They've done so many shows that they've literally encountered virtually every possible 'bad' thing that could happen and for the most part know how to turn the bad, not just to 'good', but better....to their advantage! That's one of the hallmarks of the pro and the failing of many, not all, hobbyists. It is literally just a matter of experience. Thus the refrain from many pros: You gotta get on the show. You gotta DO shows. This is, in many ways, a TERRIBLE way to communicate. Trying to 'write' nuance is a bear of a deal. There are no facial cues, no body language, no vocal variance to help sooth a post, etc. And, so....it can seem at times that the tyro is preaching to the expert about things the expert has experienced literally thousands of times in some cases. It can be aggravating. The reason generally I believe is that questions or possible or meant to be questions are stated baldly as IF they are opinion. And, from that point it all just degrades. Best regards,
Brad Burt
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Many excellent thoughts, and I agree with most of what you wrote, Brad. Thank you for the input.
One thought: is the experience of working as a pro, doing paid shows, with a prior reputation, possibly on a stage etc necessarily as useful to the hobbyist who is generally 'performing' for a vastly different type of audience in a very different context? I'm not sure how much cross-over there really is. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Then a hobbyist should know the difference and not speak as if there is crossover.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On May 15, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: Yes. 😏
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Quote:
On May 15, 2016, Dick Oslund wrote: It's not griddle cake--it's cornbread...or is it pan bread...or corn cake...or...
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Lol. That's ... Interesting, Steve.
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Quote:
On May 16, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: Dear Terrible: Yes. Consider the following analogy or example or whatever it is: Who would you rather have work on you? A surgeon that's done hundreds of whatever cutting it is you need or the guy just finishing his residency? Of the two whose experience no matter the situation would you consider more worthwhile? The Pro is the Pro for one thing because of experience...yes, I'm assuming he's been a Pro for a while... No pro started out as a pro. We almost all started out as "hobbyists" for lack of a better term. The experience of the continuum from beginner to pro is all very similar. I have lost track of how many guys started out with a Nickles to Dimes or a Ball Vase for instance.
Brad Burt
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
I can't really see the surgeon analogy working - both are doing the same thing for the same clients in the same theatre. But the hobbyist and pro magician have all kinds of differences that separate their skill sets, it seems.
For example, it is one thing to work a stage for 45mins for strangers who've paid to see you, and another to 'perform' on a moving train for ten minutes for two people who know you and half want you to fail. I just wondering whether what the professional is gaining expefience at is all that translateable to the hobbyist's different context. |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
The answer is how could it not be? I've done my rope routine for a 1000 people and for one. No difference.
In your example above: Yes and no. The venues are different, but assuming the guy on the train WANTS to do a good job of presentation? No difference. A performance is a performance is a performance. What the pro can offer is how to handle situations the tyro has not yet encountered.
Brad Burt
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Brad, I would read up on egocentrism and see if that helps. I think it is more about attention than an actual solution.
Ray Pierce
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Brad:
Yes, the venue is a key difference. The poor lighting, the rocking motion making some slieghts difficult, the angles, the lack of props, etc. But also the audience, I think, an audience who has seen all your tricks before, who know your background and aren't interested in your patter, and who are familiar enough to burn your hands or ignore instructions etc. Maybe someone who has 'worked ' in the hobbyist zone (isolated, limited resources, limited practice and flight time, different audiences and venues), for thirty years has more relevant experience to pass onto the hobbyist than someone who has worked in a very different context (different tricks, different resources, different audiences, different venues, etc) as a pro for thirty years? I'm beginning to think that may be so, st least to some degree. Ray: Is that a thinly veiled character slur: that I am arrogant and attention seeking? Why? It does seem odd that many here rather than simply ignoring my posts or threads choose rather to accuse, or insult, or mock, or attack on a personal level. I really don't understand the readiness to do such a thing. I'm really confident that I've been polite and measured throughout. What exactly is it that is provoking such a negative reaction? Is it because I disgaree, because I ask too many questions, because my tone of address is perhaps too English? I don't know, but it'd be nice if people could discuss (or not, always their choice) without discussions becoming needlessly rude. It's most ... Disappointing. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
When we tell you the problem you don't listen. So why ask?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
*sigh*
I listen to everyone else ... Please don't speak to me, follow me around, harass me or say anything untrue and unkind about me when I choose to ignore you. We are not on speaking terms. I've asked many, many times to leave me alone. Please leave me alone. Please stop. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
No you don't listen to ANYONE else, you just troll. And I am going to call you on it every time Mr. it is only the Internet so why get angry?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Quote:
On May 17, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote: I'm not sure why so I'm trying to crack the code on it. I don't think you're arrogant at all. I don't think it's Narcissism. Maybe unlike some purely academic discussions on other philosophy boards where they enjoy discussion solely for the sake of discussion, it seems like here the focus is on growth and improvement that translates somehow into action. There has been a pattern or circling around points just to sustain them rather than any sense of learning from them. You receive valuable information from great sources but rather than accept and apply them you keep trying to sustain the discussion by questioning and debating the relative merits of the opinions (and sometimes facts) that are posted. If we were just philosophers who were in the employ of academia, we would be rewarded for continual discussion with no need of resolution or results. Unfortunately we're not. Some are professionals, some are amateurs, some are hobbyists or any one of hundreds of other labels we could debate but most of us have a life outside of this and other important things to do other than reexamine our thoughts ad nauseum on how we've earned our living for several decades. This isn't a negative attack but simply my neutral thoughts on how this situation has evolved on these many threads. As an example you started a thread on " Magic - business or art?" with the opening comment "...So where does the accent lie? Art or business?" This is an invitation to a discussion that can have no resolution but that simply exists to keep people talking. I saw it for what it was and couldn't bring myself to offer my opinion as it would only go in a limitless circle of thoughts. It is a device used simply to keep a debate going without the goal of a solution or answer as their is no concrete answer for the question. I understand that you must have more time than I do to create and foster these potentially futile threads but I would rather spend my time creating solutions for people with specific problems than trying to justify my position on the ratio of art to business that works for me. I'm sure this isn't an answer you want but I'm just trying to clarify why the feelings of some people have been the way they are. Take care!
Ray Pierce
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Actually, I think that a very accurate and fair assessment
Yes, as I noted before, I think a lot of what's going on here is a clash of styles - I obviously misread the purpose and scope of the 'Food for Thought' sub-section. For that I apologise - though it's an honest mistake. I trusted that those who wished to discuss would discuss, and those who found the discussion of no profit would simply pass by without dropping in. Perhaps what confuses me most, though, is that many here have not just passed over discussions that seem of no interest to them, but have responded with snide, insult, anger and false accusations. I can understand the frustration of discovering that an interlocutor has a different opinion to you, or a different purpose for discussing the topic at hand, or a different style of posting - I really can. But when such has been discovered why respond in anger? Why respond with rudeness? It serves no constructive purpose, it only makes one look bad. Perhaps you can apply your keen insight to that issue too? All the best Ray, I'm glad you've clarified/ retracted the claim of my egocentrism. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
In response to Danny above:
I'm not a troll. I reject that false accusation. I do listen to other people. I reject that false accusation also. I'm not angry, I reject that false accusation as well. I have asked you many, many times to refrain from insulting me, making false personal accusations against me, to stop addressing me and following me around trying to goad me into some negative exchange. Once again I appeal to your better side: Please stop making false and insulting claims against me. Please stop making rude posts. Please stop talking to me. Please stop. |
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writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts |
Here's another nuance. The hobbyist who never performs is missing out on a dimension of the art. Performing is different than learning and practicing. The difference is significant enough that we put a lot of weight on the distinction. But there are other ways to cut up the same pie.
For example, I enjoy making my own props. As is usual, it costs a great deal more in time and treasure to do this rather than purchase outright. But I like the process (and sometimes the results). I could, I suppose, make a big deal out of this distinction. "Oh, but you aren't a manufacturer. Until you've wrestled with wood and steel, and bent them to your will and vision, you just don't have the chops." On the other hand, I like the big tent. Don't we all get the same slack-jawed amazement when we see a really outstanding performance? We share that at least. That's pretty good. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Cool thoughts writeall. It'll be interesting to see how others with slightly different views engage with your input.
I strongly agree with: "The hobbyist who never performs is missing out on a dimension of the art. Performing is different than learning and practicing." and I like the thought and tone behind: "I like the big tent" |
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