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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I had an idea, dunno if you fancied it...
its been talked about quite a lot recently in the mentalism sections that too many faceless amateurs are giving advice and arguing with the pro's on a few things...so my idea is this... for each main section, maybe we could have a sub-section or a sticky where we can pose questions and hope that a professional will respond...i would say that those who qualify as pros would volunteer or be approached in some way to be (i suppose) a mini-moderator as such, where they can give a "best answer" and remove any other response from those who are non-pro... i think that it might help in separating general discussions vs wanting serious advice... i think the fear is, is that people can pretend and be just about anything on a forum, so if they quickly share their show reel and endorsements and so on, then that'll help clarify a true working pro vs all of us guys... thanks for your time...
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Alternatively - maybe just a dropdown or tick box to select when you make a post, that highlights what kind of advice and from whom?
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morgaine_le_fey Veteran user Montreal, Canada 391 Posts |
I like the thought and second it!
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
In magic, all you need to do is watch a couple youTube videos, go to kinkos to get some business cards and Shazam..., you're a professional.
You'll have every faceless amateur at the Café providing their "professional opinion", except with an all new, pompous flair.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
You've missed the point, you'd have to provide evidence...
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Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
Quote:
You've missed the point, you'd have to provide evidence... Interesting idea but what would the criteria be to be considered a professional, what evidence could be provided and who would make the determination of whether or not the evidence is sufficient to qualify? There are many performers out there that can and do contribute valuable information and their advice is sound. They are members that perform regularly and have a wealth of information. Again, what would qualify someone as being a professional? It cannot just be that they make a living performing and not all professionals know the answers. You don't have to be a professional to provide sound information. Using myself as an example, I am in no way a professional magician but I am continually consulted by professionals. Would that mean I should not be giving advice or answering questions? I realize you are talking about mentalism but the situation is the same.
Where the magic begins
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I agree that "professional" should not be the criteria. But there are certainly qualified experts, many with specific area(s) of expertise.
I don't think that Iain is suggesting, in any way, that anyone should not be giving advice or answering questions. He's just trying to find a way for members, particularly newcomers to the art, to evaluate and compare the advice and answers they are getting. |
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Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
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On Jun 20, 2016, mastermindreader wrote: Which is exactly what they should be doing in the current forums.
Where the magic begins
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M. Tesla Regular user Coral Springs, Florida 154 Posts |
What's your defintion of the word "professional?" I've been a part-time and full-time performing magician for the last forty years or so...so does that mean I'm a professional magician? I've also studied mentalism for that time, forty years, and incorporated some mentalism into my stage act...does that mean I'm a professional magician but a non-professional mentalist? Needless to say, should I give magic advice, but not mentalist advice regardless of how long I've studied the subject? So my depth of knowledge of mentalism is basically nothing?
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
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Salguod Nairb Room 101 0 Posts |
A professional is someone whom when asked a question always answers 'You should buy my DVD or book'.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On Jun 21, 2016, M. Tessler wrote: Mark- Did you read my last post? I suggested that "expert" was a better term. You would certainly qualify. But my suggestion that it would help beginners evaluate the advice they were getting, I was pretty much dismissed with "They already do that." But, no, I don't believe they do. |
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Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
Bob, you weren't dismissed and I didn't say "they already do that". I said they SHOULD BE doing that.
Bottom line here guys is that a new forum could be created but like the present ones, there is no way to prevent every member that thinks they have the answer from contributing to it. At that point, we would be right back where we are with Penny and Inner. This is a discussion forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's up to each member to evaluate what is being said.
Where the magic begins
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
As for the whole "Expert, Pro, Semi-Pro hobbiest..." I think that is a never ending battle to define to everyone's liking. I have personally learned (or been steered toward a source) of some of the best ideas I use by total amateurs / hobbiests. I have a friend who is more of a magic "sturdier/ historian" than a performer who always gets ideas flowing. I guess I'm not sure what an additional forum would do differently than the already existing "Chef's Special" which seems to have slowed a little over the years. (I realize it is different than the forum being suggested here but it is of the same vein to a degree).
The other problem would be the never ending problem of the Café - posting in the wrong section. What would be the difference of asking "a coin question" in the Expert Forum as opposed to asking in the show me the money forum where you will probably get replies from a few of the best coin men out there? Would the suggested forum ONLY be allowed to be answered by a "moderated few"? (And then stickied so someone less knowledgeable can't chime in)? I think it would (in a sense ) go against the whole "Magicians Helping Magicians" goal of the site.
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
I see a 14 year old posting 25 times a day in the "new" forum, not only as a self proclaimed "expert" answering everybody's questions, but also arguing endlessly with the real experts who who might disagree with him.
If you visit the Café with any regularity, and specifically if you have one interest over others ... in my experience it only takes a few weeks to figure out who actually knows what they're talking about, and who's a 14 year old kid talking through his hat. The same goes for pseudo-experts of all ages, folks who visit every forum on the Café and pontificate endlessly about topics they've never been involved with. The Café may not be perfect, but it works amazingly well for the fact that it hosts 63,000 users, and with a permanent email address as the only vetting process required of new members! |
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Salguod Nairb Room 101 0 Posts |
Are you implying that a high post count doesn't equate to expertise?
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
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On Jun 22, 2016, Salguod Nairb wrote: Absolutely. Post count has nothing to do with knowledge or experience.
Where the magic begins
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
Actually, I think Iain is just pointing out what is a pervasive problem with the internet and other "equalizing" technology.
It used to be that the public relied on "gatekeepers," like publishers, etc., who applied intelligent discrimination as to which authors got published. There was a sense that only "worthwhile" material written by a person with some knowledge of the area would be published - publication was an expensive exercise, and the publishing houses didn't want to waste resources on crackpots whose ideas could not be peddeled. The internet, self publication, publication on demand, ebooks, etc., made it possible for ANY fool to be published/heard. And many is the fool who has availed himself of these venues. Similarly for online forums. Any one can have his say, no matter how inane or unsupported. What Iain is really looking for is some way to "credential" posters. I am not sure that there is any truly effective or efficient way to do that. So every reader has to take every post with a healthy dose of skepticism - the writer can always be some crackpot or dam fool. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I think this thread is partially inspired by fact that too many new members, particularly in Penny of late, posting under obviously false names, with completely empty profiles, and without even introducing themselves, just feel free to jump into topics and pontificate as if they know more about the art than anyone else.
While the regulars can usually spot these people immediately (many of who have writing styles just like previously banned members), I am dismayed when I see newcomers taking them seriously. I don't know how it would be possible to prevent this, but is seems to me that someone should at least tell us something about themselves before criticizing others and doling out frequently spurious advice. Why, I often ask, would I want to share secrets or advice with an anonymous stranger with a completely empty profile? Even Steve has touched on this in the "When Dining With Us" section regarding user names: Quote:
The Magic Café is home to thousands of magicians, including many of the top names in magic. As leading professionals in the magic industry, most if not all use their real names. Though not a requirement, I would encourage you to do so as well. (Note that I have a username- mastermindreader- but my signature and my profile make it very clear who I am.) The only realistic solution I can think of would apply to the admission requirements to the secret areas- I'd suggest something like 50 posts PLUS a profile, photo avatar, and a verifiable identity. I don't think that is too much to ask of those with whom we will be discussing secrets. And if there were to be "ask an expert" sub-forums, they probably should appear in the Banquet Room only. |
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Dave Scribner Assistant Manager Lake Hopatcong, NJ 4849 Posts |
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The only realistic solution I can think of would apply to the admission requirements to the secret areas- I'd suggest something like 50 posts PLUS a profile, photo avatar, and a verifiable identity. I don't think that is too much to ask of those with whom we will be discussing secrets. Avatar are allowed as a courtesy, not a requirement. Originally, avatars were not allowed. In addition, unless someone actually knows the person, there is no guarantee that the avatar is that of the member. How would you verify the identity with only an email address and a possible photo? Profiles are also a option and would only contain an email address and possibly a website if available. All of the suggestions made so far are already available in the inner thoughts forum such as a 50 post requirement.
Where the magic begins
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Ah well, at least I provoked a discussion that ended politely 😊
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