|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You seem pretty know it all for a guy who supposedly wants a discussion. Oh well.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
By the way it is the more creative musically oriented people in my experience who make the best subjects for a performance. But then again that should be obvious shouldn't it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I never used the term. My experience has been both intelligent and dumb people can be hypnotized. Creative and non creative. The only thing that lumps them together is they respond to suggestion much more than those that aren't suited. I guess they all have good imaginations but so do many who aren't susceptible.
I personally don't think it has anything to do with intelligence but more to do with the critical faculty and responsivness. I think that applies across all levels of intelligence. No proof not done research just how I've observed it. I think it is more useful for a hypnotist to have no preconcieved ideas before performing and be alert to what is unfolding and use it to his/her advantage. I can see how using it might help though its a suggestion in itself. |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Willing is the single biggest factor.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
I haven't paid attention to the careers or significant hobbies of my subjects. Thinking back, I do seem to recall a lot of musicians. That's interesting. I wonder if it has something to do with connecting with the music in some way.
Anyway. I think hypnotists use this phrase because of the reasons previously stated - it helps the show, and it helps give people an internal motivation to follow directions and such. I think most hypnotists probably use it without even considering whether or not it's actually true, because the truth of it is irrelevant to their purposes. As to why it's places outside of a performance? It's all performance. Any interviews, any Q&As on a website, business cards, flyers, even one's name - it's all part of what leads up to a successful show. Building and establishing the character and claims. I think of it like planting idea seeds to float around in the ether. If you know someone's general attitude toward hypnosis you can work within that frame work to be more effective. Personally I do agree willingness is the first qualifier. After that I want people who are imaginative, able to focus, and able to understand my directions.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
|||||||||
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Willingness in its self is a response to the suggestion to come up on stage. And probably makes up most of the good volunteers. But sometimes even the most willing people aren't suitable or susceptible. And then there is a percentage of people who are not willing but end up on stage anyway. They can't stop themselves.
I want people I can make a show out of I don't really think anything else about them. I can sometimes tell just by the way they walk on stage but not always. Some times the best ones don't respond well to start with. So for me I make no preconceived ideas I just look hard for opportunities as they arise. Just go on autopilot. |
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Well I've spoken to 3 of my hypnotist friends over the last couple of weeks and was able to get their take on whether they believe that intelligence is correlated to being susceptible. I thought I'd come back and post here on the of chance that anyone now or in the future takes an interest in this topic. Obviously the hypnotists I spoke with aren't representative of hypnotists in general in any way. They just provide a snap shot from three of my friends in the business.
All 3 of them said that they have a moment in their shows where they say something along the lines of;... 'the more intelligent a person is the easier it is for them to be hypnotized'. This is not surprising because, as a theatrical device, it helps the show. I then asked them if they thought this was factually accurate. I also asked if they might be likely to mention this, should it crop up, in any conversations about hypnotism outside of the performing environment. One of them (who doesn't work as a stage hypnotist anymore) said he didn't think it was true but that he'd be likely to trot it out in conversation purely through force of habit. Although he didn't believe it to be true he saw no harm in telling people that it was and would do so benignly through habit rather than from any intent of any kind. The other two hypnotists I spoke with said that they thought it was true. When I asked why they thought this, one said they thought they'd read it somewhere and the other said they didn't know. When I mentioned there wasn't, as far as I was aware, any accepted evidence for this correlation they both seemed to take stock of this. Interestingly the one who thought he'd read it somewhere said that even if it wasn't true he would probably still continue to mention it as if it was true in any conversations he might have about hypnotism. His rationale was that as he mentions it in his show he would be contradicting himself to say otherwise elsewhere. I thought this was a great point that I hadn't really given any consideration to. He seemed perfectly at ease to accept that, actually, he might not have read this somewhere and was so inclined to believe it probably wasn't true. The guy who didn't know why he believed it to be true had a much longer conversation with me about this. He appeared to really want to believe it was true while also believing the likelihood that it wasn't. In the end he decided that he'd believed it for so long, without knowing why, that it was simply an anathema for him to now accept it not to be true. I told him that there may well be studies out there that I wasn't aware of that suggested it was true. He said he liked that idea and would go with that. I was happy to have helped. A few things struck me from these discussions. First is that it makes sense to for a hypnotist to repeat, in their conversations, the same ideas that they expound in their shows. If it's mentioned in the show because it helps the show it makes sense not to contradict oneself and undermine one's show by saying something different away from the stage. This doesn't though shed light on whether the hypnotist actually believes that what they are saying (NB: the correlation of intelligence to susceptibility) is factually true. Second is the ground bait idea I mentioned earlier in this thread. WitchDocChris mentioned it too when he said, 'it's all performance'. The idea being that even in casual conversation you may be setting up a possible potential subject for your (or someone else's) future shows or in some general way setting out the hypnotists stall. Again this is a good reason to carry on suggesting the correlation is true but this also doesn't help shed light on whether hypnotists using this as a strategy believe this correlation is actually true. From these discussions, and some of the contributions in this thread, an idea struck me that I thought might provide the answer as to why some hypnotists might genuinely believe that intelligence is correlated to being able to be hypnotised. I thought that maybe the evidence for this belief came from, and was substantiated by, their personal anecdotal experience garnered from the subjects they've interacted with over the sum of all their shows. If this correlation (true or otherwise) was felt anecdotally it would provide a perfectly reasonable rationale and explain, not only the repeating of it outside of the show environment, but also any actual genuine belief that this correlation exists. And yet interestingly, no one in this thread, or that I've spoken to, has suggested this as being the case. And finally, of course it doesn't matter one way or the other whether any individual hypnotist believes intelligence is correlated to an ability to be hypnotised or not. But for me (and apparently for my hypnotist friends too) it's an interesting question to consider.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 25, 2016, Sealegs wrote I wouldn't use or say this in any way shape or form as it will actually work against many feeling they can be hypnotized, which will work against the hypnotist performer. Why on earth would you want to create this scenario or environment? |
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Well as Danny said above: "It is a plot device that allows for some peer [pressure] in a way. EVERYONE likes to be thought of as intelligent. So when people come up and volunteer, if they are told that it is easier to do this if you are intelligent, then it makes them more WILLING. That is the bottom line. Who wants to be thought of as "less intelligent"? "
That's the reasoning I've always assumed is behind the inclusion of this kind of phrasing too. It seems to be a way of playing on the potential subjects' sensibilities and egos so as to make them more willing. Mindpro, what's your reasoning behind why saying something along the lines of; .... 'the more intelligent a person is the more likely they are to be a good hypnotic subject'... would work against the hypnotist? Every hypnotist I've ever seen has used this ploy in some form. You obviously have a completely different take on it though. Could you share it?
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 25, 2016, Sealegs wrote I must say many hypnotists I know believe just the opposite and many trainings teach it as this as well. The problem with what you bring up, is it can be a negative preconditioning to many. Most people in a group of others do not consider themselves to be the smartest or most intelligent (other than here at the Café!). Some feel perhaps they are only of average intelligence. If, for example, at a company or corporate event, college or school performance, a volunteer believes or knows that there are supervisors, upperclassmen, or more knowledgeable people with them up there, the internal thoughts or dialog may be "well I'm not that intelligent" or "I may not be as intelligent as some of these others" and they begin to believe that since they are (in their minds) less intelligent or not as intelligent as the others, they therefore may not be as hypnotizable as the others. This then becomes a dominant thought that will likely prevent them from allowing them selves to succeed. Then to make the matters even worse, under your scenario, if one is dismissed from the stage, the mentality, belief and perception is they weren't or must not have been smart enough to be hypnotized, and leave the stage felling like a dunce, loser or less than adequate. Since most people do not think they are above average intelligence, this can be a likely scenario. Why introduce a possible negative that generally covers the masses? I believe intelligence matters little in reality. I work the school market quite heavily. I am often booked to perform at reward assemblies. These are for students that have straight A's, high GPA or are in the upper 5% as far as grades. In academia, grades = intelligence. These people, in my experience are much harder to hypnotize, harder to get to clear their mind and relax, and so on. Yet when I work with average C, D or failing students I have had much greater success overall. There are other factors that come into play as well, but specifically relating to even mentioning intelligence, as long as there can be a down side, why even introduce it? There are so many other ways and methods that the same can be accomplished without the negative implications. Hope that makes sense form this perspective. |
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Thanks Mindpro. That's an interesting point of view.
One of the things you mentioned certainly hit a chord with me when thinking of all the hypnosis shows I've seen. That is; If it's been put out there by the hypnotist that the most intelligent people are the ones that make the best subjects there's an implication that those that get dismissed from the stage are the not so intelligent people. I've joking thought to myself that it's sometimes equivalent to saying, 'nope sorry, off you go dummy'. I should point out that no one I've ever seen has ever indicated this attitude when they've dismissed someone from the stage but it's a thought that had crossed my mind a few times. Presumably it's crossed other people's minds too. I certainly follow the logic of your point about negative preconditioning and people thinking they might not be hypnotisable because they believe themselves to not be intelligent enough to be hypnotised. However I'd be amazed if the majority of people think they're below average intelligence. I think it much more likely that most people would believe they're above average in virtually everything. Including college students and corporate suits. And maybe it's not the case... but surely those hypnotists that use this ploy do so in a thoughtful and deliberate way. They presumably, like Danny, have a view that it helps rather than hinders the show. Personally I've always thought that the greatest danger in using a statement along the lines of... that the more intelligent you are the better a hypnotic subject you are likely to be... is in it being seen as blatant self-serving pandering to the audience's sensibilities and egos. If that happened it would surely take away from the hypnotists authority and standing and that would certainly make things more difficult. But I have to say I have never seen any evidence of any audience reacting as if their sensibilities or egos are being pandered to when this ploy is used. Nor have I seen any signs that anyone has been intimidated by not being intelligent enough. But it seems to me that it would be a hard thing to determine either way. Anyway thanks Mindpro, It's no doubt very useful for those who perform a hypnosis act to have what might be for them a completely different perspective on this.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea you really are missing my point at least.
You are WAY over thinking this.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
I'm not sure how the point has been missed.
Danny; "I can tell you exactly why I use it. It HELPS. It is a plot device that allows for some peer preasre in a way. EVERYONE likes to be thought of as intelligent. So when people come up and volunteer, if they are told that it is easier to do this if you are intelligent, then it makes them more WILLING. That is the bottom line. Who wants to be thought of as "less intelligent"? Mindpro; "The problem with [this] is it can be a negative preconditioning to many."... "Why introduce a possible negative that generally covers the masses?"... "specifically relating to even mentioning intelligence, as long as there can be a down side, why even introduce it?" You and Mindpro have clearly expressed widely differing opinions on this point. Both positions are backed up with reasoned argument. From my view as an onlooker, audience member and someone who has an interest in the subject, both positions have some aspects in their reasoning that resonate. (Everyone likes to be thought of as intelligent... Potentially one is dismissed from the stage feeling less than adequate) As for overthinking... That's a charge I'm always happy to accept. Any questioning, of any aspect, of any show can be dismissed as overthinking. My belief if that small details can be disproportionately important in their impact on a performance and so one person's overthinking is another person's attention to such details.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Any show I have ever done or attended those words would make little difference. I say this because there is a percentage of people who go already decided they want to volunteer. There is a percentage who are very susceptible who may be undecided and the rest who would never volunteer under no circumstance. I don't think that phrase would make any difference whatsoever. What does make a difference is the removal of fear and developing an atmosphere of co-operation and controlling the audience so that the process of induction is not disturbed by some members of the audience. For me that usually means making it clear what you want the audience to do step by step and reassure them its safe and ask for their help. That will help the process along. Telling someone they are intelligent if they can be hypnotized in my opinion will make little difference unless they are a complete idiot of course. Im pretty sure if those hypnotists that use it removed it would see very little difference if any.
|
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
If you were actually a hypnotist it might be different, but I doubt it. You get answers and you badger and push and just brevet stop until people give up. It is a war of attrition talking to you at all. You just keep going no matter what you hear.
You think it is about being right. It is exhausting talking to you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Mindpunisher wrote:"Im pretty sure if those hypnotists that use it removed it [they] would see very little difference if any."
You might well be right mindpunisher. There's certainly a diverse range of opinion on this small detail just from the few that have participated in this thread. They range from it being, good, through it being indifferent, to it being bad. Obviously it makes sense to leave out such a ploy if you believe, like Mindpro, that it will, at best, have no positive effect and at worse have a negative one. It seems to me to be a more difficult call to leave it out though if you acknowledge Mindpro's thoughts on this, but are personally of the opinion that at worst it has no effect but at best might have some degree of positive effect. One can err on the side of caution that your own reasoned opinion might not be sound (and Mindpor's reasoned opinion might be right) and simply leave it out. It would certainly be no effort to do so. But leaving it out, while believing that it has no negative effect but that it could have even a small positive effect, has to be weighed against the benefits of the gestalt effect that such small details can have. Thanks to all for providing your varied input and the different perspectives to both, the initial questions I asked, and to the one's that have emerged subsequently during the course of the thread.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Leave out? I have never had it in. Its not essential you don't need it. Its like saying waist coats must be worn or a goatie beard. Just because a lot of hypnotists follow a trend doesn't mean it has any real value. I can tell you that in the real world it makes no difference.
|
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Sorry Mindpunisher, My entire last post wasn't directed specifically towards you. Just the first 3 lines of it. The rest was meant and aimed more generally.
I think even those that use this phrase would probably agree that it's not essential. It's a question not of if it's essential but of whether it's considered to be harmful, neutral or beneficial. It's certainly it's true to say that just because a lot of hypnotists follow a trend doesn't mean that trend has any value. But neither does it mean that it hasn't got any value. It indicates that some hypnotists think that it has got a positive value. And we know from Mindpro that some hypnotists think it has a negative value. Your take is it has no difference either way. What works and feels comfortable for one performer need not for another. I'm sure there are many such small details that differ from performer to performer. Maybe each thinks their take on it is right and probably, for them, it is.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Do you perform hypnosis shows?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
I met another performing hypnotist recently. I didn't get to see him work as I left the venue before he had his show. But we got talking and I took the opportunity to ask him about his thoughts on intelligence as it related to susceptibility. He said he mentions this as part of his theatrical presentation and thought it was factually correct but he couldn't pin point where this knowledge came from. It seemed to be something he'd just assimilated as being factually true along the way.
I said that as far as I had been able to discover there was no evidence for such a correlation and went on to ask if this was the case would it have any affect for him in both performing and non performing contexts. He said he thought it was a helpful phrase for the show and would continue to use it, (which seems eminently sensible to me) and that he wasn't sure what his stance wold be if such a topic cropped up conversationally and it might depend on who it was he was chatting with. This seems like a good strategy to me. It gives one the option to play it in a way that, as WitchDocChris previous referred to as being: 'all part of what leads up to a successful show'... or not... depending on who you are chatting with.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Intelligence and susceptibility...Fact or useful fiction? (2 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |