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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » The Undetectible Zarrow Shuffle (18 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Cagliostro
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I should clarify the very important distinction between observing something peripherally and critically when it comes to the Zarrow, and to magic and card table artifice in general.

Specifically concerning the Zarrow Shuffle, most people will observe it on a peripheral basis. That is the feeling, or uncritical or casual observation that the deck is being shuffled. For deceptive purposes, this shuffling is usually part of something else occurring simultaneously. For example, in a demo magic trick the performer is using patter to describe what is occurring or about to occur and at the same time casually Zarrow shuffling the cards. The shuffle itself is not the focal point, it is an "aside" and perhaps a small or perhaps psychologically insignificant part as to what is occurring or about to happen.

This same principle applies to magic tricks in general and to card hustling and scamming also. Many things are occurring, and the "gaffing" move or procedure is only a part and possibly an unimportant or insignificant part of the whole. Therefore, the vast majority of people will observe that element on a peripheral, casual or non-critical level, or perhaps not observe it at all.

However, a critical observer, especially a suspicious critical observer, will also experience everything in totality but also carefully observe specific elements, like how well the deck is actually being shuffled. This type person will not be deceived by the Zarrow. He may not know what a Zarrow Shuffle is, but he will at least realize something is not quite right with the shuffle. If he is somewhat knowledgeable and/or has seen some exposes on TV, on YouTube or is generally suspicious and careful when playing cards, he will know or at least suspect the shuffle is false, or perhaps somewhat "strange" or at least not entirely legitimate.

For the Zarrow to be at all deceptive when doing magic or demo tricks, this principle must be present to give the greatest probability of success with the move. In a fast action card game for serious money, for the Zarrow to have the greatest chance of success I would suggest that an accomplish light a fire in the other end of the room while the shuffle is being used.

I would say that lighting a fire in the other end of the room is similar to blindfolding the deck. Both techniques are equally deceptive and represent the epitome of clever card table chicanery. Smile
Mr. Bones
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I guess in the final analysis, our friend C.R.D. Sharper certainly wouldn't use a Zarrow Shuffle to control a small slug of cards ... what with the concept of a full deck false shuffle largely a magicians conceit, and not something our crooked friend would lose sleep over trying to figure out.
Mr. Bones
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JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Jul 7, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

While I value the suggestion, I am not going to "pony up" to get the DVD. Smile


I helped produce the DVD. I have 700 of them in my closet downstairs. Send me your address and I'll drop you one.

As far as false shuffles like the Zarrow fooling serious card players. Is a game with pots of $30K, 40K or 60K "serious" enough for you? I personally sat in the room while Rod dealt games at that level in 2010. He used his tabled faro (ala Sharps and Flats), strip outs and the occasional Zarrow to set briefs. No one said a word. He crushed the game including demolishing a main event bracelet winner.

Cag, you have some weird issue with equating big money with knowledgeable players. When are you going to accept the fact that that concept DIED about 15 years ago with the poker boom and the rise of the internet poker scene? We have an ENTIRE generation of phenomenal poker players (who've played 100 times the hands that Doyle Brunson has played in his life) but that who have never seen a false shuffle in real life. These players are playing for very serious money, I assure you. But they can't spot cheating moves based solely on their dollar amounts. You simply CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT equate big money and poker knowledge with cheating knowledge. The internet poker boom destroyed that idea.

Players may or may not be able to spot cheating moves, but it has NOTHING to do with the dollar amounts being wagered. I'm a $1-2 HE player at best, but good luck getting a false shuffle by me. Meanwhile those Internet whiz-kids that showed up in S. California on Dec 29th, 2010 with $100K each in brown grocery sacks went home unhappy.

You know a lot about gambling and cheating, but on this issue your knowledge is past its expiration date. You're perpetuating a myth. Stop it.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
cbharrelson
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I love the zarrow. I really do have an indetectable zarrow. I gave up the stripout shyffles some time ago.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Jul 9, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:
I love the zarrow. I really do have an indetectable zarrow. I gave up the stripout shyffles some time ago.


Is that why you have two broken arms? Smile
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Jul 9, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

As far as false shuffles like the Zarrow fooling serious card players. Is a game with pots of $30K, 40K or 60K "serious" enough for you? I personally sat in the room while Rod dealt games at that level in 2010. He used his tabled faro (ala Sharps and Flats), strip outs and the occasional Zarrow to set briefs. No one said a word. He crushed the game including demolishing a main event bracelet winner.


Yes, those are good sized games and yes I have also used these techniques years ago. This was when private big money games were prevalent. I have often used the techniques described, among others, even an occasional Zarrow to set in a brief. Butt shuffles, both tabled and against the table techniques (called faros by magicians) and strip out shuffles, when properly executed and cleverly employed usually stand on their own. One has to be pretty knowledgeable to nail this when done capably but from time to time someone will nail what happening, no matter how well executed. Usually they are smart enough not challenge or say anything immediately but will quietly get you aside and ask for their money back. No fuss, no muss. You just give them their money back and shake their hand. But these games I'm referring to were not card room games but private games, sometimes with a center dealer and sometimes not.

By the way, when setting in a brief in one of several ways, I have used one "Zarrow" as part of a larger sequence of shuffling but had much more cover than the standard Zarrow when I did so...actually covered from all angles. It was an "aside" as part of a sequence and using grift sense critically important in these instances. However, my comments on the Zarrow, as usually murdered by card enthusiasts, remains unchanged.

Quote:
Cag, you have some weird issue with equating big money with knowledgeable players.


Perhaps I was not quite clear on this. Of course, one can encounter knowledgeable players in any game, but...when you get into big money cash games in a casino or card room format, percentage wise you tend to encounter better players as a group and percentage wise tend to more likely run up against a "sharper" player. You will also encounter players who are not knowledgeable, in fact some can be complete chumps but that does not change the main premise. In fact, you only need one sharp player in a game to cause trouble, even if everyone else is a chump. But when I talk about big money games keep in mind I am also referring to casino games - against surveillance. Also far as actual standard card moves go, the moves we talk about on this BB, for the most part are little used nowadays in big money games on a professional level. I thought I was clear on that and stand by that statement.

I also question how much experience one can glean by playing in games with $1 - $2 blinds. I don't know any pro who would try to beat a game like that and doubt one would encounter 'professional' cheating there. However, good paper and/or PROFESSIONALLY executed collusion, by very good players, in big cash games is what I am referring to. So, maybe Jason can't be fooled by that but sadly I have...and more than once I might add, before I eventually caught on.

I should also add that impressing or fooling someone with a card move in singularity or fooling someone with a gambling demo which incorporates some magic chicanery as part of a routine to entertain, is not the same as getting the money without detection in a game. It is not even close.

Quote:
You know a lot about gambling and cheating, but on this issue your knowledge is past its expiration date. You're perpetuating a myth. Stop it.


Hopefully the above comments clarified my terminology this issue somewhat.
JasonEngland
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Thanks for the clarification, but I still think your thinking is behind the times.

Line up a 10,000 poker players with bankrolls north of $250,000 and I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them made their bankrolls online and NOT in brick and mortar card rooms. Thus, in this day and age serious money players are actually LESS likely to have been exposed to advanced sleight-of-hand, not more likely. (The same could be said of paper and electronics I guess.)

Your blanket statements (clarification that you're speaking mainly of casino games acknowledged) that more money = an increased likelihood of being able to detect cheating was absolutely true in just about all cases 15+ years ago. Those higher stakes games were where we found the most experienced players and ALL of that experience had to come from live play.

These days it just isn't true.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Jul 9, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Line up 10,000 poker players with bankrolls north of $250,000 and I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them made their bankrolls online and NOT in brick and mortar card rooms. Thus, in this day and age serious money players are actually LESS likely to have been exposed to advanced sleight-of-hand, not more likely...


Your point is well taken and many, possibly even most play online. I don't know. However, there are brick and mortar poker rooms all over the US, so I think the statistics, comparing one with the other would be difficult to obtain.

For example, I occasionally play on the WSOP site in the US. This site is owned by Caesar's World, was originally only available to Nevada residents and recently added players from Delaware and New Jersey to the mix. No one but current verifiable residents of NV, DE and NJ are allowed to play legally online in the US. Residents from the other 47 States cannot legally do so. Quite frankly the activity on these three WSOP sites combined is not very good. (Of course, residents from other countries can play on non - US sites in different locations outside the US, and there may be more action on those sites, but I can't comment on that.)

The online games available to US residents on the combined 3 WSOP sites in the US really have less than desirable action in my opinion.

The cash games are mostly small-time games. Right now, at 1:13 PST Tues. July 9 2018 the largest cash game available is 25-50 cent blinds NLHE. This is follows by lesser games down to 1-2 cents NLHE games. So, we are not seeing much big action here. Of course, tournaments are considerably larger with buy ins from 0$ (freerolls) up to say $500 in general. (The first prize in this particular tourney is $17,000. Not bad.) Also, cash games can be much bigger depending on the day and time of day.

The point is, these players and many more in order to play in bigger cash games, either now or later, have to go to brick and mortar facilities. Look at all the side games during the WSOP. And while most players would not notice if an elephant walked across the table, percentage wise there are enough that recognize common moves and therein lies the rub. Hustling in today's world is not as easy as it used to be.

I think the licensed B&M facilities, which all have surveillance probably do a fairly good job, but not a great job, of protecting their games. However, the format of these games and video surveillance, limit a certain amount of sleight of hand chicanery. It simply is not applicable anymore.

Playing the casino table games against hi-tech security. That requires a different level of capability and the common methods generally just don't apply, that is if you don't want to get caught and arrested.

Usually old-time sleight of hand for the most part is obsolete or doesn’t apply in large part to the games being played on any professional level.

So maybe I am behind the times, maybe not. Either way it really does not matter to me much anymore.

WHY?

I already got mine!!! Smile
cbharrelson
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My friend cag my arms aren,t broken. I also play online poker very well too. original name of texas holdem was holdem and !@#$** .
cbharrelson
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Jason my friend you keep up the good work. you are doing a lot to preserve an art form.
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