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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » What is your opinion on video editing magic ? (15 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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SoyMilky
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Joe Joe is a straight up shooter and his contribution to the magic community is not to be underestimated.

I am using his super spinner for my gigs now.
Mr. Woolery
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Sorry to be late answering the questions put to me.

David Blaine and Chris Angel do have the skills and are certainly magicians. When they use SFX to achieve a false presentation of what we are supposed to believe was done live, in front of a real audience, they are not doing magic. That's when they turn into liars. And like Dougini, that's not the kind of magician I want to be.

I've enjoyed watching Zach for a couple of years now. Very good stuff. Not a magician, so not relevant. If he presented his videos as examples of things he can do in person, it would be germane to the discussion, but he doesn't so it isn't.

In terms of the magic world, I am indeed a nobody. Thank you so much for the belittling comment. However, is this meant to say that I don't have a right to an opinion about the matter? I am an amateur and not ashamed of it. My own experience is largely entertaining kids. In person. They would not stand for me showing them a video of a trick that I can't show them in person. That's not real magic.

Wizard of Oz summed up my feelings in a lot fewer words than I did: "What I think is the issue here are false representations of truth. The notion that a video is showing us real footage - accurately rendered - when in fact it is nothing of the sort. The performer is not only lying about what his or her audience witnessed, but also about what skills he or she actually possesses."

-Patrick
jacobsw
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Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, SoyMilky wrote:

Here is my issue with myself about this, so please let's have a conversation Mr.jacobsw.
Magic at its core IS deception isn't it ?
Who are we to get off saying where to draw the line ? Magic at its core IS deception, TV just allowed for an added layer of MASSIVE deception from re-editing, re-sequencing, re-film and include as though it was there all along to outright in your face LYING. Maybe...maybe this IS the next generation of magic and we are all acting like grumpy old man the same way grumpy old magicians complain when the first book on magic was released in the library...what do you think ?


I think the contract between a magician and an audience member is "The Magician will deceive the Audience, in order to temporarily challenge the Audience's beliefs about how reality works." As far as I'm concerned, that's the contract in full.

Obviously if somebody hypes their TV special as "No special effects! No edits! Exactly what you'd see in the audience!" then they are adding that promise to their contract with the audience. But if they don't say those words, then no form of deception is off the table.

Again, I don't LIKE unacknowledged video trickery. To me, it's like using stooges: iIt's unimpressive to me as a magician, and it's disappointing to me as an audience member when I learn that it was done. But it's not morally wrong.
hitlab
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Personally I am not a fan of video editing magic. It is kind of like a cop-out. When you see sleight of hands/live magic you rack your brain trying to figure out how a trick is done, and that is where the fun comes from. But when you see something on TV, when you can't figure it out, you will just think "it's probably done by video editing"
Mr. Woolery
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My first university degree was in broadcast journalism. Mostly audio work, so serious video editing was never in my skill set and all the equipment I learned on is totally obsolete anyway. However, I just spotted where I disagree with this:

"I think the contract between a magician and an audience member is "The Magician will deceive the Audience, in order to temporarily challenge the Audience's beliefs about how reality works." As far as I'm concerned, that's the contract in full. "

If deception is your only goal as a magician, I think you are selling yourself short. But that's not the issue. The issue is that with video editing, the magician does not deceive the audience. That's the guy in the back room editing the video. He does the deception, not the star. So, in that case, the contract is violated.

The whole point to live audience reactions (or what is presented as live audience reactions, at least) is to say clearly that what we see on camera is what we would see in person. That's the message, regardless of how true it is or isn't. If I watch a video and am amazed at the skills of the magician, then later find out that he could not even do what he presented, I have been lied to. The nature of the deception in question makes a huge difference.

-Patrick
Dick Oslund
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THAT sums it up, for me, too!

Thanks Patrick!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
RowB
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I'm anti editing. It removes from the hard work.
jacobsw
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Quote:
On Apr 6, 2017, Mr. Woolery wrote:
The issue is that with video editing, the magician does not deceive the audience. That's the guy in the back room editing the video. He does the deception, not the star. So, in that case, the contract is violated.


If the magician does the editing, does that change things?

And as another thought experiment, if a magician in a stage show has an offstage assistant who makes the trick possible (and perhaps even does most of the work), is the magician a fraud? If a stage trick only works when the lighting guy gets the lights exactly right, is the magician a fraud?

Unless you invent your own tricks from scratch, and build all your own props, any magic performance is a collaboration.
Terrible Wizard
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Jacob, in thinking about your thought experiment I agree that all (most?) magic is collaborative - even if you did design your trick and props entirely from scratch, you still need an audience.

However, I don't think such a thing would affect my opinion on edited TV magic. The awareness of editing and camera trickery utterly reduces my ability to enjoy and engage with the 'magic', which I see as a performing art and thus difficult enough to capture on camera without the involvement of editing (can you imagine watching a juggler on TV where the balls had been added by cgi? Or a televised race where the winner only appeared to win because of editing, but in reality came last?)
danaruns
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Part of it, for me, is that video is intended to record and preserve a magic performance, not falsely create the appearance of one that never occurred. Absolutely anything is possible with video technology, but none of it is magic.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Mark Williams
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Quote:
On Apr 21, 2017, danaruns wrote:
Part of it, for me, is that video is intended to record and preserve a magic performance, not falsely create the appearance of one that never occurred. Absolutely anything is possible with video technology, but none of it is magic.



Although, I edited in a bunch of quotes in my own video, the magic still remains. Take a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuPhfEkadck


Best Magical Regards,

Mark Williams
"Once is Magic!! Twice is an Education!!"
Mr. Woolery
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Dana stated my feelings exactly. Please re-read her most recent comment and assume a big "ditto" from me.

I'm not sure why this is hard to explain to you, Jacob. If what you see on camera is not an accurate representation of what is seen in person, it is a deception of an entirely different sort than what is achieved by sleight of hand or tricky props or misdirection. It isn't about who actually does the editing in the back room. What matters is that the editing in what makes the "magic" happen. When you posted a link to one of Zach's videos, I responded why that isn't magic. Who does the editing does not change the situation. Either you are performing magic or you are pretending you can perform magic.

If my whole purpose is to deceive, I can just tell you lies. I just ate a Snickers bar. My IQ is 144. My dad is a helicopter pilot. There! Am I am magician, now?

I am sure you actually understand what we are all telling you. You keep arguing against it and I can't see why. You asked for opinions. We gave you the requested opinions about video editing, then you started telling us that we are wrong. I don't get it, buddy. I just don't.

-Patrick
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