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Dannydoyle
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Never had a coach. Never will.

I have had many mentors. Never ever had anyone feel the need to charge me for information. All I had to be was willing to actually listen.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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You pretty much just proved my point exactly... for a 7 hour drive you got a lot of value that was directly applicable to your specific type of performance. That seems to be way more value than paying a coach on a monthly basis.

As for MindPro specifically... he seems to be an expert at acting like he's an expert online. That's about all I know about him. I've never seen anyone want to hide their identity so much online... but I don't know.. maybe in reality he's David Copperfield? I'm not saying I doubt any of his claims, but I have no reason to believe them either. Comparing him to the Great Zuchini seems odd.. I can look up Zuchinis website and see that he is a regular performer with lots of shows booked. I can see what he looks like, how he talks, the venues he performs in, etc.

My thoughts on coaching are all general thoughts... not aimed at MindPro. I'm sure he's as good of a coach as most.
cafecheckers
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Danny- ironically, one of the things I spoke with Mindpro about last week was your rich experience getting to learn from the famous Chicago Bar Magic Scene and working at magic shops gaining invaluable entertainment experience. Times have changed. Shops are closed, few attend magic clubs, so getting to know mentors on that level seems less likely in today's world. The trade off is that there is way more connectivity on a broader sense today from internet connections like we have here. I would think the concept of paying and charging for information is the cultural norm today as well. Wether it is downloads, lectures, conferences or coaching - my generation is accustomed to paying for it. In reality, it is probably your generation that never had to pay for such information that the prices charged today for such content remain relatively low.
cafecheckers
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ThomasR, You are assuming that the discussions I have with Mindpro regard the type of performance I currently have. I can assure you, they are not. Just because we received an offer from Zucchini that fulfilled many our needs at that time, does not mean other learning interactions are not valuable. If Mindpro were David Copperfield, he would probably not be able to guide me on my path with the same value Mindpro likely will bring.

Regarding assesing Zucchini's validity, hind site is 20/20. He had all that information on display 4 years ago, he also had articles in the Washington Post detailing his unique approach - never the less the doubters were numerous and vocal. Somewhere the threads still exist. People/Coaches are not always as they appear. Look at Joe Paterno. At some point you have to decide if you trust your instincts and make a move on things.
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results..


So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results.
And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results.

Which is it? Or is it both?

More of the same, embedded in long paragraphs by an anonymous poster.

If there's an exchange of money involved, I'd go for someone with experience in the field I want to excel in, and an available track record.
I don't have anything to sell here, combined with a lifetime of experience in these very topics; it's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Mar 22, 2017, Keith Raygor wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results..


So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results.
And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results.

Which is it? Or is it both?

More of the same, embedded in long paragraphs by an anonymous poster.

If there's an exchange of money involved, I'd go for someone with experience in the field I want to excel in, and an available track record.
I don't have anything to sell here, combined with a lifetime of experience in these very topics; it's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff.


You just can't wait to attack him can you? What is the basis of your problem exactly?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Keith Raygor
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If you saw that as an attack, then you're already biased, and there's no point in explaining to you (again) the reasons I question Mindpro's advice.
The content, Danny, the content. Read what I wrote again, and respond to THAT, instead of veering off into mischaracterizing the very plain speech in my post, and trying to make it personal. It's not.
charliecheckers
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[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, Keith Raygor wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results..

Quote:
So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results.
And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results.

Which is it? Or is it both?


When I read this, I thought of it this way. If a carpenter inquired from a coach/mentor "which hammer is optimal for the job am am doing? Providing the answer directly and pointing the individual in the direction on where to obtain such a hammer will carry the carpenter through on that particular project, but will not serve to address the broader based concern, which is that the student likely knows little about how and why hammers are designed with subtle differences from to another in the way they are constructed to provide optimal results across a wide array of possible applications. Teaching about this in a technique that both engagies and ensures the lesson is retained by the student requires a different and more specialized skill set. Additionally, there are of course other tools besides hammers that might be preferable for some of the jobs one is considering using a hammer for. They not only need to know about such tools, but they need to know the advantages and disadvantages to make an informed decision and truly grow in their craft in a meaningful way.

Entertaining is much more complicated than this example, because it involves the complexities of human interaction. Entertainment business includes entertainment, and a whole lot more.
thomasR
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Carpenters buying hammers.. Chefs baking pies...

If 2 trains depart Chicago at the same time, one with a coach, and one without a coach which will arrive at the destination on time?
The coach will inspire the train engineer to head for the mountains, the sky is the limit! And just think.. after driving a train through the mountains you will have excellent train handling skills!
Meanwhile the engineer without a coach takes the easy path across the plains.. it's less inspirational (no mountain views after all!) but allows for faster average speeds and puts a lot less stress on the engine.

I'm not really sure if that makes sense or not but if hammers and pies can be used.. why not trains!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Mar 22, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Carpenters buying hammers.. Chefs baking pies...

If 2 trains depart Chicago at the same time, one with a coach, and one without a coach which will arrive at the destination on time?
The coach will inspire the train engineer to head for the mountains, the sky is the limit! And just think.. after driving a train through the mountains you will have excellent train handling skills!
Meanwhile the engineer without a coach takes the easy path across the plains.. it's less inspirational (no mountain views after all!) but allows for faster average speeds and puts a lot less stress on the engine.

I'm not really sure if that makes sense or not but if hammers and pies can be used.. why not trains!


I am as confused as you are.

And since we are not talking about sports or anything but magic I wonder if coaches deprive students of the experience of learning to the detriment of the student?

So much is learned from our own mistakes. Why be so afraid to make them?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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I'm confused as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the coach riding a train was also a chef?
charliecheckers
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I'm starting to see a trend here in the way in which certain people process information.
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Mar 22, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
I'm confused as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the coach riding a train was also a chef?


That happened once and they called him, the chief cook and bottle washer. Smile

Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.

https://boleware.blogspot.com


The Daycare Magician Book

https://thedaycaremagician.blogspot.com/
thomasR
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I'm still unsure of what a coach is actually supposed to do.

Give you a clear business path

Tell you how to make more money

Motivate you to establish a clear business path in order to make more money.

Am I missing something?
lou serrano
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Thomas,

The right coach will help you achieve your particular goals, so it's different for everybody.

Lou Serrano
Dannydoyle
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That seems pretty convenient.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Quote:
On Mar 22, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
Thomas,

The right coach will help you achieve your particular goals, so it's different for everybody.

Lou Serrano


Well, you claim to have used coaches. What did one of them do for you. What was your particular goals. why did you feel you needed a coach? Did you meet your goal(s), and do you honestly think you needed a coach to achieve those goals and why?

Please know I'm not being argumentative... I'm genuinely interested. (And this question isn't just for Lou, anyone who has had a coach, please feel free to answer!)
lou serrano
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Thomas,

Read my first two posts on this thread, and you'll get your answers.

Lou Serrano
Mindpro
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ThomasR I think you have a narrow perception of coaching or mentoring as only as being someone who helps someone attain goals they could've attained on their own. To help them with their current goals. Questions as you've eluded to as "what were your goals and why did you feel you needed a coach to attain them" are not what most that I have worked with over the years ever perceived.

Helping someone reach their existing goals may be part of coaching, training and consulting, but most of those I work with do so for advanced education and industry knowledge to help themselves attain their goals. To provide knowledge, experience and insight they have not experienced, obtained or in many cases are even aware of. To gain formation they can't gain elsewhere. To learn information not commonly available.

You must remember there is no qualification to be a performer. No formal study or education, no organization or requirements. Every kid that had a magic set thinks they could simply become a magician. Every person to buy a karaoke machine thinks they could offer a karaoke business. And for many years anyone with a sound system and music collection believed they could be a DJ. There's no one at the door, no eligibility or requirements, and mostly no formal education or curriculum. So what you get is a bunch of guys essentially "winging it" based on "what they think, feel or believe" not true reality. This of course is the worst possible scenario for a business.

Coaching, consulting, training and mentoring allow for all of the missing or avoided elements to be confronted, addressed, acquired and overcome. Most I know go into coaching to learn, to gain knowledge and skills that will be applicable to their business. The by-product of much of this is allowing them to attain their goals more directly, more knowledgably, and more quickly, often being better prepared for what will be encountered when they do.

Coaching is much more than just a paid rah-rah supporter. Far from it. It is almost like a personal manager, you get your hands dirty in the personal education and achievement with the client. Their interests, goals and business, become yours. Most of my coaching and consulting students stay three years, some currently as long as 12 years in my advanced MasterMind level. I am an investment in their education, learning curve and truly their business. Could they do it on their own? Maybe, possibly. Usually at a much greater cost of time, money and investment.

As many will tell you, what I offer is like a Masters Degree in live entertainment business and performance (their words, not mine, yet it is said over and over again.) At my recent Las Vegas workshop I had kids performers, corporate performers, someone who was beginning their own self-produced theater show, someone who was very interested and committed to creating their own unique and new market, and another that in interested in creating their own national tour. Everyone's interests are specialized and range far beyond helping them to reach their basic goals.

Many come to get a far greater understanding of the business of live entertainment. How to scale and grow your business other than by just booking more gigs. They quickly realize entertainment business is far different from conventional business. Some want to learn the many different facets of the business. "How do I go into an elementary school and earn $2500-$3500 a show? Do I give them the quick answer? No. I educate and teach them about the educational market in every facet so when they get the answer they know and fully understand all of the whys, when, who, what and hows. More than just giving them what they think they need. More times than not what they think they need and what they are really asking for are very different things.

It is also a progression for many of these people. Some start with specific interests. But then, they achieve these interests and goals and of course for most, it doesn't stop. Their are other levels, opportunities, markets or business strides to achieve. Progress rarely ends. Fortunately I am able to help most to even the most advance levels they are seeking. There is a partnership and a trust. Coaching is much more than just someone helping or guiding you, much more.

Of course I'm not speaking for Lou, just for myself.

To me its not much different from going to college or a trade school to get the best education you can to excel and position yourself with the best chance for education, knowledge and success in their chosen profession.

I only wish this was available when I was just starting out. I would have accomplished my goals much quicker and more directly.
thomasR
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MindPro..

There has to be a goal or goals for hiring a coach. If there isn't a goal, there is no need to hire a coach. So me asking "what were your goals and why did you feel you needed a coach to attain them" does not make me have a narrow perception of coaching.

Everything you mentioned could very well be one of a clients goals. "I want to finish my coaching feeling like I have a masters degree in entertainment" can be the goal.

Everything you wrote is 100% biased since you are a coach.... but you made some decent points.
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