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SimonCard
Special user
601 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:03 am
 0
Back to the original post for a moment? Do you own Tamariz and ascanio 's books and their DVDs? If you are into their magic, why not get their materials directly instead of watching YouTube videos?
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bidbid
New user
83 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:08 am
0
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, SimonCard wrote:
Back to the original post for a moment? Do you own Tamariz and ascanio 's books and their DVDs? If you are into their magic, why not get their materials directly instead of watching YouTube videos? Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I don't want to see people doing their material.
I wanted to see performers that construct their magic with the principles and theories of the spanish magic school.
I do own pretty much all their stuff.
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:31 am
0
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Anyone "teaching" on YouTube is exposing. YouTube is a public forum where anybody and everybody can learn the secrets. Teaching is a crutch for wannabe magicians who cannot perform tricks for people, which is the exact job of a magician.
Nowadays all you need to do to be a "magician" is to subscribe to one of these "wannabe magicians."
Man, are things screwed up!!!
So Xavior Spade is a wannabe magician who cannot perform tricks for people?! You're an NYC guy and you're saying this?! Yes
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:35 am
0
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, MySurvive wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Anyone "teaching" on YouTube is exposing. YouTube is a public forum where anybody and everybody can learn the secrets. Teaching is a crutch for wannabe magicians who cannot perform tricks for people, which is the exact job of a magician.
Nowadays all you need to do to be a "magician" is to subscribe to one of these "wannabe magicians."
Man, are things screwed up!!!
So Xavior Spade is a wannabe magician who cannot perform tricks for people?! You're an NYC guy and you're saying this?!
Also add Ramsay, Maddison, Sankey, Vinh and Asad from 52K, the list goes on and on.
TBH I'm not really that impressed with Matt's presentation of his tricks... he speaks to his specs with the same monotone voice with one tone inflection over and over. Heaven forbid they talk to him while he's performing as well. The technique is good, but not entertaining. Who cares what you think about my presentation? Maybe you should check out my website- https://matthewfurman.com. I'm the only magician who has been successful without exposing 🤔
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:38 am
0
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, MySurvive wrote:
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, SimonCard wrote:
Being technically good and being a good performer doesn't justify the action of exposing on youtube. 'teaching' on youtube where everybody has access to equals exposing. the difference is that 'teaching' is 'exposing' in much greater detail.
It's just as easy to go to the library and borrow RRCM to learn a DL as it is to go on Youtube and look it up. Also, I don't know any laymen that went to Youtube after they watched a performance just to figure the trick out... not to mention they would have to know what they're looking for so that they don't go down a rabbit hole.
I very respectfully disagree that Youtube tutorials are the same as exposing magic. Ummmm, not is isn't as easy to go to the library and look up a move as it is on YouTube. Plenty of laymen go to YouTube to figure a trick out, you seem to be a perfect example.
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:40 am
0
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Boy! If that "ain't" exposing I sure don't know what is. Hi Harry, happy to see you in here. You are a living legend. Can you believe the mass exposure on YouTube and these idiots????
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:42 am
0
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Respectfully...sorry, but you're wrong. And in most cases you at least have to PAY for a good magic book. Aside from THE MAGIC BOOK which I wrote for the public - I don't think you'll find the books that I wrote for magicians in the library. Not usually anyway.
YouTube tutorials are not only exposure - they're also usually, most often, at least those I've seen - TERRIBLE. And - many who do those terrible tutorials are thieves. Again, I know I've seen terrible so-called magicians teaching my stuff - terribly. I hate to visualize the future of magic if most are "learning" from YouTube tutorials. (Free is usually lousy!) Harry, well said. All true, it is a complete joke. I finally am not alone on this point. The problem is the people we are chatting with are 12 year olds and know nothing about magic.
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:43 am
0
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, MySurvive wrote:
I've never once had to pay for a book at the library [I've seen Royal Road, Card College, and Expert at the Card Table all at the library], I've never once had to pay to search the forums here at TMC, and some magic books are so old that their copyrights have expired. I know that there have previously been copies of Royal Road to Card Magic, Tarbell, and Expert at the Card Table provided free of cost due to copyright expiration.
There are several barriers that must be hurdled when watching YT videos:
1) Laypeople don't even know where to start searching regarding a trick they've seen.. "Magic shuffle turn one card over" How many tricks can you think of with that same effect?
2) Even if they eventually find the method to the effect, what are the chances that they would even understand what the person teaching is telling them to do? They have no foundation so they definitely won't be learning the trick. *What in the heck is a diagonal palm shift?*
3) Don't overestimate the drive laypeople have to figure out a trick.
4) No amount of YouTube videos will make you a good performer.
5) Youtube videos show ~~A routine~~ they do not show how to make it your own.
It sounds like you're describing thinly veiled technophobia, which is fine, but even if you hate the idea of tutorials being on YouTube... it's happening. As Bruce Lee said, "Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind." I'm sure the computer technicians of the late 90's were terrified for their work as well when Google started becoming more and more used. "How can I keep my job in technology if everyone can just search how to fix their own stuff." You simply cannot underestimate the laziness of people that do not want to do something.
Whether or not the trick/technique is performed well is completely irrelevant to the conversation. Ignorance is bliss!
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PigCakeFan1337
New user
4 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 11:38 am
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Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, MySurvive wrote:
I've never once had to pay for a book at the library [I've seen Royal Road, Card College, and Expert at the Card Table all at the library], I've never once had to pay to search the forums here at TMC, and some magic books are so old that their copyrights have expired. I know that there have previously been copies of Royal Road to Card Magic, Tarbell, and Expert at the Card Table provided free of cost due to copyright expiration.
There are several barriers that must be hurdled when watching YT videos:
1) Laypeople don't even know where to start searching regarding a trick they've seen.. "Magic shuffle turn one card over" How many tricks can you think of with that same effect?
2) Even if they eventually find the method to the effect, what are the chances that they would even understand what the person teaching is telling them to do? They have no foundation so they definitely won't be learning the trick. *What in the heck is a diagonal palm shift?*
3) Don't overestimate the drive laypeople have to figure out a trick.
4) No amount of YouTube videos will make you a good performer.
5) Youtube videos show ~~A routine~~ they do not show how to make it your own.
It sounds like you're describing thinly veiled technophobia, which is fine, but even if you hate the idea of tutorials being on YouTube... it's happening. As Bruce Lee said, "Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind." I'm sure the computer technicians of the late 90's were terrified for their work as well when Google started becoming more and more used. "How can I keep my job in technology if everyone can just search how to fix their own stuff." You simply cannot underestimate the laziness of people that do not want to do something.
Whether or not the trick/technique is performed well is completely irrelevant to the conversation.
Ignorance is bliss! Indeed. Nailed it.
It is pretty *** easy to drop pointless phrases instead of actually trying to understand the points of the opposite side and adress them. Don't you know how to discuss properly? Who is the ignorant one? You (and your other fellows to be fair) are repeating the same arguments over and over again; try to read our statements atleast. 
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PigCakeFan1337
New user
4 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 11:41 am
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Respectfully...sorry, but you're wrong. And in most cases you at least have to PAY for a good magic book. Aside from THE MAGIC BOOK which I wrote for the public - I don't think you'll find the books that I wrote for magicians in the library. Not usually anyway.
YouTube tutorials are not only exposure - they're also usually, most often, at least those I've seen - TERRIBLE. And - many who do those terrible tutorials are thieves. Again, I know I've seen terrible so-called magicians teaching my stuff - terribly. I hate to visualize the future of magic if most are "learning" from YouTube tutorials. (Free is usually lousy!) Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Harry, well said. All true, it is a complete joke. I finally am not alone on this point. The problem is the people we are chatting with are 12 year olds and know nothing about magic. Aaaaaaaand there we go, ad hominem arguments. The absolute worst kind. My post above is still valid, please look up how to properly debate/discuss.
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SimonCard
Special user
601 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:01 pm
0
No the above mentioned masters do not only worry about the copyrighted material , they worry about the basic sleights too. Steve draun discussed this in his interview at the end of the penguin lecture. Ricky jay is so worried that he never tipped any secrets.
Most real magicians and masters worry about the exposure and do not want the general public to know magic secrets. I feel sad that people with your kinda mindset are learning magic. It'd be good that your passion over magic subsided and stay away from the secrets that haven't been exposed yet.
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bidbid
New user
83 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:05 pm
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, Wondermouse wrote:
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, bidbid wrote:
Quote: On Jul 5, 2017, Wondermouse wrote:
Here is the other side of the story from Orson Welles. I believe the position stated is just as valid now as it was in 1947. I suspect he is rolling in his grave at the way magic is exposed to all and sundry nowadays.
http://www.wellesnet.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=308
Is it as valid today? Nowadays with the internet the basic secrets of magic are widely available, but the possibility of instant
communication anywhere in the world made it possible for good magicians to rethink and refine their art SO MUCH.
as Welles says in the article "A real magician's task, it seems clear, is to abolish the solution, the possibility of any solution in the minds of those he seeks to amuse". I say that a good magician thanks to today's knowledge can do that so so easily.
Who can't seem to "abolish the possibility of any solution" I feel are the magicians who don't study enough to be ahead of a spectator that knows the dobule lift or what not.
OF COURSE it is valid today! In fact more valid than ever. And don't be so sure that the basic secrets of magic will be "widely available" on the internet at least in the future. There is a fifty fifty chance that they might not be. There are ways you know................... I am saying that while now access to tutorials is bigger than ever so are the sources for the serious magician, after Welles we had great theoretical works on how to create the sensation Welles talks about, and magic has become much more refined, just the ability to instantly brainstorm new ideas with anybody form around the world instantly made it possible to create effects so refined that are near impossible for a lay audience to crack. In welles' days instead magic was still pretty secretive, the result? Thousands of magician around the world doing boring and copy and paste routines, meanwhile tranforming the idea of the magician, so strong and charismatic in the 800s, in something akin to the clown.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that makes spectators that know basic tricks and sleights from youtube feel even more amazed that the complete layman.
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bidbid
New user
83 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:27 pm
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, SimonCard wrote:
No the above mentioned masters do not only worry about the copyrighted material , they worry about the basic sleights too. Steve draun discussed this in his interview at the end of the penguin lecture. Ricky jay is so worried that he never tipped any secrets.
Most real magicians and masters worry about the exposure and do not want the general public to know magic secrets. I feel sad that people with your kinda mindset are learning magic. It'd be good that your passion over magic subsided and stay away from the secrets that haven't been exposed yet. "I feel sad that people with your kinda mindset are learning magic"? Do you think I learn from youtube or something?
I only learn from books dude, and I read a LOT, and I am an excellent magician let me tell you that
or at least good enough to amaze an audience even if said audience knows double lifts second deals glides passes and whatever else.
It's all about construction and finesse with magic dude.
if no magic secret would have ever been revealed we would be having thousands of magician doin TERRIBLE stuff, and all the same.
that's how magic get's better.
The fact that Draun and Jay are masters doesn't mean they can't be stubborn, non even basic sleights that is ridicoulos, penn and teller revealed so much tricks in their tv appearances, but they improved
the idea of "magician" for a lay audience infinitely more than those two guys that laypeople would hardly know.
And also they are magician that specialize in poker themed card tricks. So it's so dumb to make such an argument, because those tricks are all based of the fact that the perfomer in using his skills to make what happens happen, there's no feeling of real "magic" anyway so what do they care about basic sleights? Welles in that text someone linked before said that the magician needs to eliminate all solutions in the spectator's mind, and it is possible and even easy for someone who studied for example Tamariz's "the magic way" , but where is this in the works of draun and jay? The spectator can think "he's skilled and fast with his hands" .
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SimonCard
Special user
601 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:46 pm
0
Clearly you are mixing up teaching to serious students of magic and exposing.
I never implied you learn fro YouTube. I meant you will probably become one of those people that expose on YouTube or tip the secrets when your audience begs you to.
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bidbid
New user
83 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 12:57 pm
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, SimonCard wrote:
Clearly you are mixing up teaching to serious students of magic and exposing.
I never implied you learn fro YouTube. I meant you will probably become one of those people that expose on YouTube or tip the secrets when your audience begs you to. I never tell the secrets of what I do, the magic ruotines I do are too complicated anyway to be explained to a layman, that's what constructing magic is about, lots of subleties and methods, I can easily amaze someone that knows a second deal a pass and a double lift by constructing a routine in wich I use those 3 elements. Exposing isn't a problem for lay audience, the only problem is magicians that expose to magician's tricks from other magicians. So copyright basicly.
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cfirwin3
Loyal user
Rochester, New York
233 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 05:28 pm
0
It seems to me that this debate, itself, is far more overrated than any performer, teacher, book or forum member.
There are a few simple facts at work here that we can acknowledge without picking a side:
1. Teaching, in any form, of a secret is an exposure of the secret.
2. Publications, free or otherwise, are available to anyone who wants them... They are, after all, publications.
3. Great performers come from great teachers and bad teachers alike... And more often than not, bad performers come from the same.
4. Most people are barely interested enough to seek out a magic performance, much less devote time to learning the secret of a performance that they saw.
5. Most great magicians got started with some things that uncle bill, grandpa, or a best friend taught them.
6. Most effects operate on only a handful of long-standing principles. The greatest principle being the illusion of secrecy and exclusivity... and the lie that the simplest solution couldn't possibly be the correct one.
7. Copyright as it pertains to magic involves the combination of the effect AND the methods, but rarely just the effect and almost never the method (unless the method is uniquely created by the author).
8. Copyright infringement as it pertains to magic and unauthorized exposure happens, no doubt about it. And like all copyright infringement, it shouldn't happen.
9. Legit publications are often just as bad at citing their public domain sources for effects and methods as are the free publishers... Neither of these cases constitutes infringement in the legal sense.
10. Hobbyists and amateurs are the bread and butter of the discipline, both monetarily and with respect to interest. They are the ones that frequent conventions, magic stores, internet outlets, forums, and YouTube channels. Deriding hobbyists and amateurs is like Walmart keeping someone at the door to insult each patron as they leave, regardless of the amount of merchandise that they have or the money that they spent.
If I were to add an 11. it would be that each side of the discussion suffers its jerks... They are probably the loudest and most polarizing ethicists.
That's just 2 cents from a hobbyist and patron who has devoted a life to the mastery of a different discipline, but some of his most valued free time to magic.
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lynnef
Inner circle
1407 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 07:28 pm
0
In re "copyrite infringement": I think we've gone so far afield of the OP because copyrite infringement is so much easier with the internet. Another topic in this same forum relates to the "scribd" site, which apparently mixes public domain with pirated books in digital form. Some are led to ask the question "is this legitimate?" I agree that we shouldn't deride amateurs, especialy if they don't know. But if they do know, they should be told that they are harming people. One other thing that is not a legal matter is the "magicians code" which should be told to all. Lynn
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FalseDeal
New user
76 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 09:22 pm
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Anyone "teaching" on YouTube is exposing. YouTube is a public forum where anybody and everybody can learn the secrets. Teaching is a crutch for wannabe magicians who cannot perform tricks for people, which is the exact job of a magician.
Nowadays all you need to do to be a "magician" is to subscribe to one of these "wannabe magicians."
Man, are things screwed up!!!
So Xavior Spade is a wannabe magician who cannot perform tricks for people?! You're an NYC guy and you're saying this?!
Yes Step 1: Watch this ambitious card routine TO THE END: https://youtu.be/tuyMqWudt5U?t=7m36s
Step 2: Post a comment apologizing to Xavior on the video
Step 3: Come back here and apologize to me
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 11:22 pm
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Anyone "teaching" on YouTube is exposing. YouTube is a public forum where anybody and everybody can learn the secrets. Teaching is a crutch for wannabe magicians who cannot perform tricks for people, which is the exact job of a magician.
Nowadays all you need to do to be a "magician" is to subscribe to one of these "wannabe magicians."
Man, are things screwed up!!!
So Xavior Spade is a wannabe magician who cannot perform tricks for people?! You're an NYC guy and you're saying this?!
Yes
Step 1: Watch this ambitious card routine TO THE END: https://youtu.be/tuyMqWudt5U?t=7m36s
Step 2: Post a comment apologizing to Xavior on the video
Step 3: Come back here and apologize to me You really must be kidding me. Wow!!!! I am blown away...
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furmanmatt
Loyal user
New York
217 Posts
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Posted: Jul 6, 2017 11:31 pm
0
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 6, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, FalseDeal wrote:
Quote: On Jul 4, 2017, furmanmatt wrote:
Anyone "teaching" on YouTube is exposing. YouTube is a public forum where anybody and everybody can learn the secrets. Teaching is a crutch for wannabe magicians who cannot perform tricks for people, which is the exact job of a magician.
Nowadays all you need to do to be a "magician" is to subscribe to one of these "wannabe magicians."
Man, are things screwed up!!!
So Xavior Spade is a wannabe magician who cannot perform tricks for people?! You're an NYC guy and you're saying this?!
Yes
Step 1: Watch this ambitious card routine TO THE END: https://youtu.be/tuyMqWudt5U?t=7m36s
Step 2: Post a comment apologizing to Xavior on the video
Step 3: Come back here and apologize to me
You really must be kidding me. Wow!!!! I am blown away... In all fairness this guy does have some good card moves. The rising sequence looks amazing. Yet it is a 14 minute video with a minute or two of magic. And most of his videos are Tutorials. So let me restate what I said-
Teaching is a crutch for wannabe magicians who cannot perform tricks for people, which is the exact job of a magician. The exception is doing a card trick or two for some randoms when you are out and about. You might want to look at this video, you definitely can learn a thing or two- https://youtu.be/1kVA4XgFNP8
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