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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Is the Universe conscious (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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Ron I think you absolutely have disbelief and are just afraid to admit it so you couch it like you do.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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La Famiglia
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
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On Jul 23, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Jul 23, 2017, R.S. wrote:
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On Jul 23, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Jul 18, 2017, R.S. wrote:
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On Jul 18, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
When you say, "I don't believe in a designer," and you might mean

1) I think it's more likely than not there is a designer, but I don't quite have enough evidence to really be sure;
2) I think it's 50-50 whether there is a designer or not; OR
3) I'm almost convinced that there is not a designer.

Then the "simple" statement, "I don't believe that there is a designer" reveals next to nothing about your position.


No. It reveals that I don’t believe there is one. Period. And that’s quite a big reveal, imo.

Ron


Is it not true that your statement "I don't believe there is one" would apply to any of those three cases?


Again, belief is a tipping point of no return. You are listing probabilities, which different people may evaluate differently. For me personally, if I had to pick from your list I would say #3 is closest to my view, and that 1 and 2 do not apply in my case.

Ron


I understand; I'm just saying that by your definition of "believe," the statement would apply to anyone who had position 1 or 2, also, wouldn't it?


I don't know. Perhaps. You would have to ask the person who professes a belief (or non-belief). I think we (you and I) may simply mean different things when we speak of "belief". That may be a hurdle we can't get past.

Ron


Why would I have to ask that person? I'm just highlighting your definition of the word belief. You've said that a belief is an absolute conviciton that something is the case, not just "more likely than not..". So it wouodmapply to both 1), who is not convinced, and 2), who doesn't even think it's more likely than not that God exists. By your explanation, the statement clearly applies in all three cases.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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Does your imagination of a thing
and your impulse to act
lead you to expect
an experience of that thing?
(corollary: to experience awkward/surprise if the experience does not conform to expectation?)


We can go all the way back to object-permanence and the game of peek-a-boo to establish some stabile workspace in which to draw and test conjectures.

Prove it. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

I have to say, you ask more questions about God than anybody I’ve ever seen.


And is that a bad thing? See my signature.

Anyway, care to answer the questions?

Quote:
Where does the desire to know God come from?


I don’t know – you have to ask the people who believe in God. Personally, I am interested in learning what people believe and why they believe it.


Quote:
You think the 'fact' that so many want to learn about him may be proof he exist?


Do you also think the ‘fact’ that so many people want to learn about extraterrestrial aliens, or Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness monster, or Xenu (of Scientology) may be proof THEY exist?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ron I think you absolutely have disbelief and are just afraid to admit it so you couch it like you do.


Danny, not sure what you mean by that. I have been pretty outspoken about the fact that I don’t believe there are any Gods. Are you confused about something? Moreover, do you have a compelling reason why I SHOULD believe there is a God(s}?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 23, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 23, 2017, R.S. wrote:
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On Jul 23, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Jul 18, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 18, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
When you say, "I don't believe in a designer," and you might mean

1) I think it's more likely than not there is a designer, but I don't quite have enough evidence to really be sure;
2) I think it's 50-50 whether there is a designer or not; OR
3) I'm almost convinced that there is not a designer.

Then the "simple" statement, "I don't believe that there is a designer" reveals next to nothing about your position.


No. It reveals that I don’t believe there is one. Period. And that’s quite a big reveal, imo.

Ron


Is it not true that your statement "I don't believe there is one" would apply to any of those three cases?


Again, belief is a tipping point of no return. You are listing probabilities, which different people may evaluate differently. For me personally, if I had to pick from your list I would say #3 is closest to my view, and that 1 and 2 do not apply in my case.

Ron


I understand; I'm just saying that by your definition of "believe," the statement would apply to anyone who had position 1 or 2, also, wouldn't it?


I don't know. Perhaps. You would have to ask the person who professes a belief (or non-belief). I think we (you and I) may simply mean different things when we speak of "belief". That may be a hurdle we can't get past.

Ron


Why would I have to ask that person? I'm just highlighting your definition of the word belief. You've said that a belief is an absolute conviciton that something is the case, not just "more likely than not..". So it wouodmapply to both 1), who is not convinced, and 2), who doesn't even think it's more likely than not that God exists. By your explanation, the statement clearly applies in all three cases.


It could, yes. That being said, if you’re interest is only in where on the scale of belief the person falls, then you have a valid point. HOWEVER, and more importantly to me, is the bottom line – does the person believe or not? So regardless of where on the scale he/she is, the disclosure of belief/non-belief is really what counts. So in the end, that disclosure is the “big reveal” that I referred to earlier.

Again, you have stated (contrary to my view) that if a black card was removed from the deck (thus tipping the balance in favor of red), you would then ‘believe’ the top card was red. This indicates to me that we simply have a fundamental (and likely irreconcilable) disagreement on what it means to believe.

Do you feel that there is any particular argument that is superior to the others in FAVOR of a God? One that is most appealing to you (even if you’re not yet fully convinced)?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ron I think you absolutely have disbelief and are just afraid to admit it so you couch it like you do.


Danny, not sure what you mean by that. I have been pretty outspoken about the fact that I don’t believe there are any Gods. Are you confused about something? Moreover, do you have a compelling reason why I SHOULD believe there is a God(s}?

Ron


My compelling point is do as you wish.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Anybody????...

"Is there ANY action God could take that you would deem too horrendous… too callous and too broadbush in it’s application?"

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ron I think you absolutely have disbelief and are just afraid to admit it so you couch it like you do.


Danny, not sure what you mean by that. I have been pretty outspoken about the fact that I don’t believe there are any Gods. Are you confused about something? Moreover, do you have a compelling reason why I SHOULD believe there is a God(s}?

Ron


My compelling point is do as you wish.


Thanks Danny. Smile

Take care,
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Ron,

You can’t answer questions with questions. Smile

We all know that the people talking about extraterrestrial aliens, or Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness is a tiny percent compared to those talking about God. So surely you don’t half way believe that.

You say, “Personally, I am interested in learning what people believe and why they believe it.” And I asked why?

You also say, “I don’t know – you have to ask the people who believe in God.” Why would I ask myself a question?

I’m afraid you have lost me Ron. You seem to be confused now.

I’m simply asking where does this ‘burning desire’ you have to know about God come from.

Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.

https://thedaycaremagician.blogspot.com
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Anybody????...

"Is there ANY action God could take that you would deem too horrendous… too callous and too broadbush in it’s application?"

Ron



I would say, Who are we to question God.

Sure we may wonder at times, but we don't see what he sees.

Tom
Take care and by all means, stay inspired.

https://thedaycaremagician.blogspot.com
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
Anybody????...

"Is there ANY action God could take that you would deem too horrendous… too callous and too broadbush in it’s application?"

Ron


If there's no God, then the question is a non-starter. If there is a God, at least one of the omnipotent/omniscient variety, then it seems specious to judge said God by human standards.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2017, R.S. wrote:
"Is there ANY action God could take that you would deem too horrendous… too callous and too broadbush in it’s application?"

Could take, or would take?
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Jul 23, 2017, R.S. wrote: 
"First, do you have good reason to believe the [Noah's Ark] story is even true?"

This depends on what you (or I) would consider to be good reason, which is quite subjective.

Do I believe that the story is true? Yes.

Do I believe that it happened exactly as described in the Bible? No. I believe that the description is allegorical, not literal.

Quote:
On Jul 23, 2017, R.S. wrote: 
"Secondly, if so, do you think an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God would be able to come up with a better, more humane method for teaching a lesson than to drown every innocent infant, child, man, woman, and creature on the planet?"

No.

As Lobo points out, who am I to judge?

(And it should be "Second", not "Secondly". Smile)
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