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MitchC Elite user Can't believe I only have 415 Posts |
Just got this. What a BRILLIANT presentation & effect. Just LOVE IT !! 10 thumbs up. I'll let you guys debate the crediting of this.
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JasonL2112 Regular user 169 Posts |
I think I'm actually turning my vote up to 11 (out of 10) after playing with this some more.
It is just SO darned clean, zero angles, and no excuses not to be performing this regularly. I agree with MitchC on crediting. I get it, I can certainly appreciate it, but wish there were somewhere else for that discussion to occur. Most of us don't have a dog in that fight and it'd be so much nicer if the primary threads were about reviews, opinions, additions to the actual effect. My 2 cents.. Disclaimer: my 2 cents may be worth far less than that in reality.
GLOMM
http://www.theglomm.com/ |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
So you don't care that this already existed and someone new is claiming it as theirs? Well that says a lot about the state of magic!
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Schaff New user Fargo, ND 75 Posts |
Hi Tom, couple things-- earlier you mentioned that you need multiple specs for it to work. That's not true, you can even use the exact same setup, and only one spec and one reveal instead of 4 and 4.
Other thing, Docc credits the creator before he explains his touches. Kind regards, Schaff |
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mike donoghue Inner circle 1295 Posts |
I also learnt this effect from the Mendoza book a lifetime ago & I also changed several things in it.
Got to say though that Doc Hilford has really added a lot to this & put a heck of a lot of thought into improving it. Impresive thinking from a legend. Mike Donoghue |
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JasonL2112 Regular user 169 Posts |
Never said that. There are credits made in the teaching, I am not familiar with the previous method (credited or otherwise), and I don't have a dog in the fight.
"Personally" I think that if anyone has a concern around crediting, they should take it up with the creator or retailer they purchased from to have the concerns addressed properly. Arguing or making claims (which may or may not be valid) in a public forum doesn't do anything to solve any potential issues and dilutes the discussion. Again, just my opinion, but wanted to clarify since it seemed to have been taken out of context. For any further discussion around my specific comments or opinion, feel free to PM me. Anyway, great routine and handling huh? Quote: On Sep 7, 2017, Tom Cutts wrote:
GLOMM
http://www.theglomm.com/ |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 5, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Quote:
On Sep 6, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Did you look it up already, Tony? Curious to hear your thoughts about the Christ version.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'm not familiar with the other effects mentioned, so if it helps (having just started to watch the docc download) is this
Docc covers higher mentality - he has elminated the "weird shuffle", and docc says in that version you have to ask a question "does anyone see their card?" in docc's one, you reveal which card you reveal who is thinking of the card no questions asked at any point
I've asked to be banned
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 7, 2017, Schaff wrote: Hi Schaff, couple things-- Shortly after posting that this requires four participants I corrected myself and said it can be worked one on one. Good job ignoring short history and trying to pass off something already posted as your own. Oh, wait, I'm beginning to see a pattern here. (Just busting your chops, but really people should read an entire thread before challenging someone on what they posted.) IAIN, Schaff, Jason, et al... Docc's credit goes to Bobo, who had a somewhat similar routine he sold in the 50's. However, Christ's "Mental Stud" appeared over a decade earlier in The Jinx, and it is practically, completely identical to what Docc is teaching. Buyers should absolutely be aware of this before purchasing. What we have here is nearly an identical situation to the RED debacle. Now, for ten dollars you get more detailed teaching of Henry Christ's "Mental Stud" and a couple performance tweaks which can improve the impact you get from this. But make no mistake, this is Christ's "Mental Stud". And yes, that FACT belongs in a review. While it was worth $10 to me to see this old routine played out and see how Docc has shaped the drama of it, that doesn't mean we should start calling it by a new name and ignore the history of magic. Credit: thanks to member a brown 1968 for pointing out this history. |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
Well roared, Tom.
Glad you support my impression of both versions being identical.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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a brown 1968 Elite user 470 Posts |
Thank you Iain .
As you own the down load . Credit is given to Higher Mentalivity but is any credit given to the Henry Christ effect ? It is an amazing coincidence that in the modern age of Hold 'Em the version of poker to build an effect around would be Stud poker ,which is out of fashion . When was the last stud poker effect released.? What are the chances ,that to eliminate the weakness of the original the same shaped object would be used to avoid asking questions as in the Christ effect Thatt rather than use 5 face up poker hands with 5 chips , which would work , you decided to have 1 card face down to have additional reveals , exactly like the Christ version The effect is great but the coincides above I find even more amazing |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
No - just bobo/higher mentality...
I do though, think that the style of poker used is kinda moot - I mean, you're delivering this as psychic poker, so the type of poker used doesn't really matter...and I guess the presentation you attach to it is most important, so the reasoning (if anyone did ask) was simply that this was the style of poker you learned as a kid (or whatever)... docc also gives some nice ways of using money instead of poker chips which would make it seem more impromptu... that's all I have to report really...
I've asked to be banned
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts |
Indeed, I was able to locate this exact routine in my copy of The Jinx, from 1939 by Henry Christ.
I believe in the importance of proper crediting when releasing effects. I would think that given the ubiquity of this routine in "mental magic" books, it would have been trivially easy for someone like Doc to find out about the genesis of this effect, and whether or not he had actually moved it forward. From what I can tell, it's the same as the 1939 Christ version. That doesn't mean that it's a bad trick (indeed, it's a excellent trick), but Doc should have put more effort into sourcing the original (You'd think someone like Doc would be particularly familiar with The Jinx), and also simply referred to the product being sold as an instructional tutorial for the original Henry Christ creation. Just my two cents.
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 7, 2017, IAIN wrote: So does Christ.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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Max Hazy Special user 543 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 7, 2017, Ben Blau wrote: Absolutely agreed.
"Your method is in my opinion the very best way to do Q&A"
Millard Longman "Max has pushed some less known and seldom used principles a huge step forward" Jan Forster Arcane Grimoires Vol 1- http://www.maxhazy.com/arcane-grimoires/apocryphal-reach/ Arcane Grimoires Vol 2- http://www.maxhazy.com/Codex-Mentis/ |
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terrillific Loyal user San Antonio, TX 292 Posts |
The original uses money (coins) but you could do it with paper $ or any other objects that you think would work. I'm saving my $ and just using the Henry Christ creation with bills.
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Rizzo Inner circle East Coast 3346 Posts |
Yea it's the same effect from Christ.. Great effect and coins can be used like original. Poker chips- actually anything can be used like gems rocks etc but as it's a poker type routine- makes perfect sense in original using money - coins or chips in the update. A real fooler.
Also in Annemans card magic from 1943 |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 7, 2017, Tom Cutts wrote: I agree with Tom. I just read the Christ write-up and technically the routine is near identical. In fact a few of the comments made by Docc are almost identical to some lines printed in the JINX in 1938. Seeing Docc present it is what sells it. He does go into more detail on the technical aspects than the JINX, he has updated the cutting sequence, and he gives it a presentation and makes it theater. Reading it, and seeing Docc perform and teach it, it is amazing how this 80 year old routine holds up and plays today. For me, it was well worth the $10 I paid for the video. Tony |
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Nicolino Inner circle 2893 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 7, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Doing a double under-cut instead of a normal cut is worth to be considered as threshold of originality? Wow.
The Mati Envelope
A brandnew peek device for the working mentalist! Chance's Token Tarot cards in a scenic piece of mystery..... |
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Dreda Veteran user 320 Posts |
"but Doc should have put more effort into sourcing the original (You'd think someone like Doc would be particularly familiar with The Jinx)"
especially when you know that most of Docc's ideas come from the jinx... Again a product for uncultivated magicians. |
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