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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts 
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On Oct 2, 2017, Raum wrote: He has certainly gigged a lot in the past, though his web promo material is not very current. Supposedly he was on Oprah and a bunch of other shows. I did see a picture of him with Michael Jordan, though it looks like it was from the 90s. And the agency represents at least two people. Him and his (Daughter?). And some models, apparently. I don't see that they represent magicians or mentalists other than him, though it's hard to tell with the outdated promo stuff.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Stunninger Inner circle 2827 Posts
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On Oct 2, 2017, Last Laugh wrote: Have to say, I'm not surprised to hear any of this. Quote:
On Oct 2, 2017, Raum wrote: |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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On Oct 2, 2017, Raum wrote: A prime example of exactly what I was referring to of someone passing of uninformed opinion to others as fact. Ignorance and flaming is not intelligence. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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On Oct 1, 2017, Last Laugh wrote: As I said, many performers would be surprised at the bigger picture seen by producers, promoters and agencies. To answer your questions, yes a we book both magic and mentalism and have since the early 80s. Now mentalism was referred to as Psychic Entertainers back then. My full-service agency represents both, while my specialty agency books mentalists but no magic. As far as the how much mentalism vs. magic, it depends on the market. For example in the corporate market it is 65% mentalism and 35% magic. In the fair and festival markets it would be 95+% magic and less than 5% mentalism. Cruise Ships more balanced, while the college market more mentalism for us. Theater and PACs are also pretty balanced, with mentalism being seen as more fresh and less worn or common (most have had magic before, but not always mentalism). So it really depends on the performance market. Many still see magic as kids and family entertainment only. It also varies on types of markets. In professional markets where those booking do this as part of their job duties and responsibilities who typically book performers or speakers for their company or event, typically do know and ask for “mentalist”, “mind reader” or “psychic performer/entertainer”, where as consumer market/one time booking clients or those less experienced with booking entertainment usually use the term “mind reader” when asking, others “psychic entertainers” and some might actually use the term “mentalist”. Even if they do not know the proper name to identify them with, the key to understand is they view mentalists/mind readers/psychic entertainers as being separate and different from magic. That was my point. So when guys mix magic and mentalism, they see it as magic or fake-mentlaism, similar to how they see magicians as fake or pseudo hypnotists. Also when we offer suggested selling, mentalists are far more popular than magic and it has been that way for most of the last decade. I agree this is often because they may know they want something different yet may not know how to identify their interest as mentalism. But more and more are becoming familiar with the term. We hear people say they saw mentalism since the summer of Dittleman and AGT and many mention seeing or being aware of The Mentalist (Gerry McCambridge) from Vegas or his NBC show and some have even mentioned Phenomenon, as well as different late night t.v. appearances. I’m not convinced most mentalists know how to properly market or position themselves perhaps as much as agencies likely do. So they default to how magicians do it. Now to also create the proper perspective, magic and mentalism really only accounts for 20-25% of our bookings depending on time of year and performance markets. Iain, you are taking creative and artistic offense to this information. I can understand why, and that is great if you are performing non-professionally for self-fulfillment. I am speaking of those performing more commercially trying to serve the marketplace and make a living at doing so. As you describe it, this does not appear to be you. Again, people tend to see things only from their own perspective and as it pertains to them, which was one of the points I was making as well. I hope that better clarifies and answers your questions. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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If you have true talent and are driven to express that talent, you will succeed. If you have only one out of the two you will likely struggle in the long run.
But I'd say to young performers -work as hard as hell to create something original that you love performing. Don't become part of the machinery and try only to please a market. Only true originals achieve great success -you can settle for cookie-cutter mediocrity later. |
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Raum Loyal user 227 Posts
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On Oct 2, 2017, Mindpro wrote: You do not exist as a businessman, a performer, an entrepreneur in the modern world. Your website looks like a terrible museum exhibit. All photos are made in the 90s, all your websites where you sell your books are made according to one cheap template, there is not a single modern proof that would prove that you are such a successful businessman as you tell. All your stories about the market, business can be evaluated only in terms of history, but not modern and adequate business help and with the amendment to your bloated ego. I will not say anything more, because the moderator will quickly remove this post. Magic Café has an amazing tolerance for scammers. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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On Oct 3, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Hi, I wasn't taking offense at anything 
Genuinely find the more expanded explanation more helpful. I would maybe take umbrage at "self-fulfilment", though I would say - to a degree at least, we all do that don't we? to enjoy/love a certain 'thing' and to want to do it on some level. I've done many gigs (but not in the same volume as the pros), booked by all types, but certainly on my own terms... as I see it that I am a 'commodity' of sorts, a brand (however low level), so I get booked for something only I can do...it just so happened that a good percentage of the enquiries and bookings came from people who had readings from me, or sometimes character analysis from unseen drawings... so it would then turn into a house-party, an after dinner thing, a private area at a bar... and all under my guidance/conditions...completely agree that this is non-pro, and I never attempt to be seen otherwise, the only time I comment on stage stuff is when its a visual thing, and I caveat it as "just a visual thing, no experience of stage"... I think what can be frustrating, is that just as the majority of café members are not full-time pro performers, not all of us amateurs or non-pros are after the same thing, or have the same experiences or viewpoints - yet we all get lumped in as one thing...I kinda get why, but at the same time experiences are valid and can certainly be shared from our own perspectives surely? Isn't that the point of an open forum? I mean, I wouldn't give advice about the business side, cos I've only ever done it from my own singular perspective and it worked for me (and me only)...and I wouldn't give advice about being pro, cos I've never been one... but sometimes, us non-pro's can contribute in a healthy and positive way y'know, for example - you don't perform close-up, so though I'm sure you'd be able to, but against a non-pro who has been doing it regularly for a decade, they'd know a bit more about that particular dynamic...surely you can concede that? And sometimes there's a gap between what is typed and what is meant - which clouds it even more... occasionally, it feels like no one else other than a full time pro should comment on threads...and I find that difficult at times, because we can't always validate that claim...and though they might sound knowledgeable, it might be simply rehashed 'wisdom' garnered from others in some way - and not truly their own...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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On Oct 3, 2017, IAIN wrote: I think you're 100% correct, Iain. Part of the strength of the Café is the diversity of backgrounds of the contributors. Some of the most interesting posts are often from the members who are academics -who bring a unique spin to their approach to mentalism. There are also posters here who work at a decent level in films and television and bring their experience of the wider entertainment industry; others work in other artistic fields, such as the visual arts, where their expertise in that area can lead to uniquely valuable thoughts on mentalism and its presentation. There is also the issue that not all full-times pro Mentalists share the same depth of knowledge or professional experience. Some are working in theatre and television; some in corporate environments; some do cruise ships; some do table-hopping and some work psychic fairs and private parties. Some have been doing it for 20 years -some have just started. There were times in the past here when people who were pros working one of the lower rungs of the entertainment ladder were lecturing Derren Brown on how to put together a stage show and suggesting that his posted comments were nonsense (they didn't realise they were doing so, which makes it all the more amusing when you look back at it). All voices should be welcome on the Café, but you should take all advice with a healthy pinch of salt. The truly great, original performers -in any field- tend to plough their own furrow, in any event. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts
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Good points, especially since, according to this thread at least, there are very few full time working mentalists here on the Café.
Anyway - great contributions to the arts come from all corners. Iain is a perfect example of someone who is not a pro by the conventional standard, but has contributed tons of great ideas, methods, routines to the community. And beyond Iain, there are going to be creators that are not pros and pros that are not creators. Certainly if we are talking about marketing, then the pros probably are going to have more helpful info, however as you both say - you can't always tell who's really who, so that too needs to be weighed on its merits.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Max Hazy.jpg "View Profile") Special user 543 Posts
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A lot of truth here.
Asking picasso to paint with the finger and with a certain color to fit my "needs" is ridiculous when you talk about art, unless you aren't an artist. Show them your paintings and they will see your talents. Marketing is just part of business and is about showing them what you can ADD for their event, about picking their interest and making them aware of what you can do that would be of their interest. We do have professionals that are not creators and creators that are not performers to name a case. A lot of people have different knowledge to share here, be them pros, hobbyists, mind-readers, psychics, etc. This topic is amazing and could serve to a lot of people, but sometimes there's too much criticism and very little help. I've brainstormed with a lot of people here. Speaking for myself, magic is surely more popular than mentalism. To advertise myself as a mentalist and expect to call attention for being "different" will not work. In business, people are consumers and consumers WON'T buy what they don't know/understand. So I've decided to take advantage from the word "magician" to advertise me, however I do think it could damage the realness in my "mentalism" part, even though I can counter that in presentation as I've done before... so I'm also countering that with esoterism. I'm measuring now how people perceive me when I say that I'm all 3 at once (I actually perform all 3 in different venues) and the esoterism seems to be heavier than the magician part bringing balance to me, so I do think this approach could work. I'll give it a go.
"Your method is in my opinion the very best way to do Q&A"
Millard Longman "Max has pushed some less known and seldom used principles a huge step forward" Jan Forster Arcane Grimoires Vol 1- http://www.maxhazy.com/arcane-grimoires/apocryphal-reach/ Arcane Grimoires Vol 2- http://www.maxhazy.com/Codex-Mentis/ |
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Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1268 Posts
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[quote]On Sep 6, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2017, Last Laugh wrote: You want magician's advice on mental magic, since most of the actual mentalists are gone, stay here. One of the most honest and appropriate statements I've seen yet.
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
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Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1268 Posts
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So, let me see if I have this right, if you're a real mentalist then you don't do magic. So that means, to me, that you also don't use a magician's techniques. Not disregarding the techniques taught in Corinda, Jinx, or other mentalist tomes. Yet it was Annemann who wrote 202 Methods of Forcing. (I know it was Annemann because I have that book.) If you don't use magicians' methods and are "doing it for real", to use a term that was tossed about, then !@#$**g shouldn't come into play. Neither should having spectators write stuff on pads and handing the paper back. I get having it written down, that's so they don't change their mind or say you're wrong, but you certainly don't need any slips back and you don't need them to do anything more than write it onto a slip on their own desk or table top. You're going to read their mind for real. Let's be REAL for a moment. Unless you're breaking out a Tarot deck and doing legit readings of the cards, casting runes, looking at tea leaves, or some other sort of divination, you are using TRICKS. Tricks means something that is done where the person it is being done to is not privy to everything being done. If there is some sort of sleight of hand, gimmick, or evasive methodology being used, it's a trick. I don't care if you call yourself a mentalist, magician, or a cow tipper, you're still doing a trick.
For myself, I perform tricks that deal with the possibility that we as a species have the potential to reach out with our being to do things that seem magical and strange to us right now. I make the impossible probable. I bring a sense of wonder, amazement, and thoughtfulness into people's heads that maybe there really is more to it than just what we experience day to day. I use props to showcase those things because we, as a people, are used to using props every day and those props make sense to us. I don't use funny boxes or giant thingamabobs. I use a plain deck of cards, some books, a few pieces of (really) ordinary silverware, some pen and paper, and a few pieces of wood with some nails driven into all but one of them. I show not only my own ability to tap into that potential, but also get others to tap into their OWN potential as well during my show. But that's JUST me. I also can entertain a small group of kids for a birthday if I want to. TOTALLY different type of program that one, but a GIANT deck of cards does show up.
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts
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[quote]On Oct 6, 2017, Samuel Catoe wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Somehow that quote got screwed up when you re-quoted - I didn't say that, MP did. Anyway, this thread kind of ended up in a different direction... the original question was about how much to align with magicians regarding marketing since people specifically looking for mentalists are much less common. Regarding the other thing, there is going to be eternal argument about who or what is a 'real' mentalist. Whether that is a type of magician, whether it means playing it for real of just doing it for real. There are lots of differing opinions and definitions and nobody can rally claim that they are the only one who is right. Don't get too worried about other peoples definitions.... just be the best performer you can be.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts
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Unless you're breaking out a Tarot deck and doing legit readings of the cards, casting runes, looking at tea leaves, or some other sort of divination, you are using TRICKS. Or contact mind reading, or hypnosis, or memory techniques, or influence techniques, or various visualization exercises ... even certain presentations for energy demonstrations or cold reading or pendulum work could be presented "Straight" while telling the audience what you're doing honestly. That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4697 Posts
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The four tools of the mentalist:
Force it. Fake it. Find it. Fill it in.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts
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On Oct 7, 2017, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote: Exactly. Or the 21st century version for product trailers: "Film it, and then edit the hell out of it". |
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Lukasz P Loyal user 230 Posts
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Very interesting thread full of philosophy but I feel that many of us here have the same question : what should I do to have much more jobs . In Poland this problem is much more difficult because here 85% people doesn't know who is a mentalist or mind reader . I remember Cassidy's words about explanation for an audience , they want to know what they have seen , what it was : hypnosis ? body language or others ? I don't want to write what mentalism is but what people must understand . This is a reason why they will choose a mentalist for event not a magician . And you right it must be full of entertainment because people , especialy from corporation looking for a fun and product premium class . Or am I wrong ?
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4697 Posts
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Provide supply to where there is demand, or create a demand where you have supply.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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Sure you are right IF you are a working mentalist interested in bookings and pay. IF you are a hobbyist, enthusiast or theorist none of that matter to these guys. Just as if you are a reader different things matter than if you are a performer (stage, closeup or walkaround). The problem here is many here are not talking apples to applies and oranges to oranges.
Also opinions are being passed off as facts. In this thread alone two guys have offered things about me that don't have one ounce of truth to them as they've presented them but yet they believe their own false nonsense. They also think they're owed something - explanations, proof, etc. I've worked with working pros for over 35 years and none of them have talks like these crazy threads around here these days. They are more concerned about their livelihood, careers, business, supporting their families and progressing their performance business. That is what they care and talk about. They really don't care about who does what in their performances, who believes what, the history of such debates, or all of these other things. Why do you think most of these guys have left here? |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts
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Luckily there are other places to meet and discuss with like minded professionals. Places where people are polite and helpful.
The Café is definitely a strange place, but I think there are still valuable things to be gained by these conversations. I have received some good advice among the nonsense...
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Posted: Oct 2, 2017 10:01 pm 
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