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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
It's a moral choice, always has been... But it's not a necessity to be one way or another...it's an artistic expression on one level...
Just cos chard sharps and sharks exist, doesn't mean you have to take someone's money...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Hahaha chard!
I've asked to be banned
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2017, RCP wrote: The hows and whys magicians became involved, exploited it and some consumed by it's darkness is a fascinating study. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2017, RCP wrote: Is the wrong answer. Back to google for you, my young friend. Maybe you can watch that TV clip of Orson Welles from the 70s again? |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2017, IAIN wrote: I think you are on to something, our new pal martin is a chard sharp, |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
So, we have a 1906 reference to an illusionist and "mentalist" performing in the States -obviously a stage performer. Do we have any earlier references to non-stage performers calling themselves Mentalists?
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
Not that I am aware of but certainly possible. Communications then were slow and very regional.
Stage show performer might be a stretch. It appears the show was a shill for the sale of the fraudulent cure. The common reason these things existed. It wasn’t meant to be an entertainment form but a vehicle of profit. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2017, RCP wrote: You think someone advertising themselves as an "illusionist" at the turn of the 20th century didn't perform on stage? Where is your evidence that the 1906 performer was a shill for the sale of a fraudulent cure? |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
I was wrong about the name, look up norman baker, here is a small taste but most of what I have is in my (extensive) library.
The only sources we have is the literature of the day, since Nelson was the source of the day I'll take his word over yours. http://muscatinejournal.com/news/local/n......5cf.html You still can't accept that turn of the century mentalism existed solely to sell something, the entertainment was the hook. products, readings, talking with the dead that's were the loot was.....still is |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
Here is a little homework assignment for you Martin. What famous magician was related to a famous spiritulist? What you think they talked about at Thanksgiving?
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote: Let me start with just Anna Eva Fay who's husband was Henry Melville Cummings, who took the name Fay for performance. In this case it was not a question of the effects being replicated by mentalists but being exposed by a mentalist. Here is where one should actually look at Washington Irving Bishop,celebrated mentalist of his time who worked under the name Wellington (4 March 1855 – 13 May 1889)and who was the Fay's stage manager.Thta's right they got exposed from within by there own stage manager. Wellington (Bishop) would later expose the tricks used by the Fay's and joined with the anti spiritualist movement during the 1870s. And while I am at it let's look at a connection to selling quackery for the lack of a better term where in Wellington studied with John Randall Brown (October 28, 1851 – July 3, 1926) an noted muscle reader during the Victorian era. Now where this gets interesting is Brown was a relative of Marshal Brown form the The Aquarian College of Metaphysics, Clifton, Bristol, England, which practice and sold things related to the treating and curing of disease by the Essenic Science of Natural Healing known as (Astra-Pathology) Which is Astrology applied to medical Botany This group also had branches in New York during 1890 -1910s* Which may have lasted a bit longer in the U.S. Although the documentation is a bit weak after about 1912. Also Hereward Carrington also wrote many books which used the early terms for mind reading. Also One can not speak of John Dee without mentioning his seer Edward Kelly who in his book The Philosophers Stone The copy I have is a facsimile of his hand written letters bound in leather. Which speaks of many things that could be related to mentalism but does not use any of the secret language of the modern mentalist since it would be a few hundred years before those terms would be used in the vocabulary however it does use many alchemy terms that relate to philosophy and early science. As for The Comte de St. Germain which appearance are you are speaking as many since his disappearance (death) still record accounts of him appearing to persons and his last appearance was in an account in the Mt Shasta California during the 1970s where in he speak's to a psychic who also does mentalism and revealed additional information so the accounts goes. No I not going to give the earliest reference here on the Café but that will be covered on the Psicast where in I am covering many of the aspects of the history mentalism and its many misconceptions related there in. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
I guess all of this is what happens when "mentalists" (and I use that term lightly) are not busy as working performers.
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
Or when were in our off season my next tour does not kick off till Nov 4th. Not that is any of your business either. Also were attempting to have a discussion about a topic and really could use constructive comments for a change instead of the troll behavior we usually get form you. Or do I need to mention the 1000s of times you actually say nothing about many of the topics in which you post. 8245 posts as of January 25, 2007 and who has nothing better to do. I joined on October 31, 2007 and most of my posts are actually long and informative for the most part and I have not even made 1500 posts. Mainly because if there is nothing to say I not going to post trash that is off topic like "I guess all of this is what happens when "mentalists" (and I use that term lightly) are not busy as working performers. "
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2017, Mindpro wrote: you mean a common showman, historically not well looked upon as a profession |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
Mindpro, it seems you may share the same thoughts about the subject......
"Mental magic, I believe, is what is really growing, not true mentalism, but again for the wrong reasons. It is for many magicians that want to be seen in the mentalism realm, without having to learn, understand and commit to mentalism and "the process of learning mentalism", so therefore the mental magic is a quick fix solution. "I can just do magic under he premise of being a mentalist." The problem is many of these guys will tell you they are mentalists and present themselves and to their audiences as mentalism. It is this that then becomes the trivialization and create problems with mentalism" http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=100 and I'll add no historical understanding of what or why |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
I blame Last Laugh. We were all getting on well together until he turned mentalist against mentalist and started a civil war on the Café.
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
Somehow I don’t think he is laughing, though.
Patrick |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
I'll say this - we're getting some true colors here. I'd say that's always valuable. Also, RCP - ask MindPro if he agrees that Bob Cassidy was a magician doing a mentalism style act. If he agrees, we'll have to throw out half of his posts.... Also - perhaps I'll say this again. Definitions are arrived at by consensus. History does not dictate the current meaning of a word, modern usage does. That's how a dictionary works. Sure, understanding history is valuable. One of my absolute favorite books is "Behind the Scenes with Mediums". I'd say that it describes - method wise - a good deal of stuff we still use. It is no doubt to me that fraudulent mediums begat mentalism. However - history moves forward. Nowadays, the majority of people consider mentalism to be a stage or entertainment thing, having been adapted from the older mediumistic stuff....
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
Have you done your own research on the information presented in "Behind the Scenes with Mediums"? As that work is a pseudobibliography (a 19th century term that was used by many noted historians including and most notably John Clarke Ridpath) if there ever was one. As most of what is written in that work is not backed by any supporting factual or documented evidence that has not been argued over for many years since it first appeared.
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I've seen mentalists and magicians turned speakers using mentalist and magical methods during their presentations, where does that fit in?
I've seen demonstrations of a real skill, let's use memory, supplemented by by magic effects, I've also seen a magic effect used in a promo to sell a memory program (albeit the person could do the stunt for real). I've seen teachers use effects to illustrate or punctuate a point they are trying to get across. I've seen performers include an effect that simulates a skill, like memory, and have products for that skill as BOR items. Performers can make 2 or 3 times their show fee in BOR sales. The guessing the guessing the zodiac sign effect was popularized and used as a technique to pitch horoscope charts by Eddie Fields. Dinner theater performers (magic and mental) doubled and tripled their income by advertising their services as readers on table tent cards and pitching that service via effects during their performance as well as charts and other items and services. This still goes on, those in the know, know. In addition to pitching products for BOR, some performers include material that pitches other services the performer offers. Technology allows for recording and selling copies of a show to audience members of the show they were at or participated in as a BOR product. The audience is made aware of (pitched) this. And I know that, for many, each performance is in itself a pitch to whoever sees it to hire you for their own event. As Bill pointed out, Nelson's message of mentalism being used to sell other things still goes on. There is a business side to show business. It is also a very effective technique for getting a point or message across. I'm not here to argue or debate with anyone, just pointing out my observations related to the initial topic, and pointing out that even within the entertainment usage, it can still be mercenary by some standards. Tony |
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