Hi there,

After buying Patrick Redford's Temporarily Out Of Order, I got into stacked deck work and I'm at the point where I've completely memorised the Redford stack...but I have ran out of ideas of what I can do with it. Some time ago I was advised to get both Mnemonica and some of Aronson's books, but after seeing the price Mnemonica goes for I'm having second thoughts. Is Mnemonica (or Aronson's work) the best option for me considering I already know a stack by heart and I'm only looking for stack independent effects, or are there other books that are better suited for me?

Kind regards,

Mauro

My advice is pick up Mnemonica and read Divination. After working on Divination(but really, done correctly you should have a notebook(s) filled with your own thoughts approaches, strategies, scripts and performances) research card divination effects and routines/acts on Denis Behr's site. Buy more notebooks.

I'm not going make a list for The Best of Memorized Stack Work or it's interesting history and contributors but everyone's list would include Aronson.

Don't neglect the stories Canasta, Allerton and Berglas's work have to tell.

I'm not familiar with Divination? More info please? Thanks!

Repeated divination effect.

Copied from Mnemonica book:

"This is undoubtedly, the first effect people usually do with the stack, and was very likely the first and only effect for which it was created. It has stood the test of time. Its strength lies in repetition
...
A tip.
My advice at this point would be to read no further, to throw this book away and to start practicing, thinking and working out your patter, subtleties and presentation for this miraculous routine"
"

Thanks. Didn't think there was a book named that!

Divination is a chapter in Mnemonica.

Start learning how to do impromptu card stuff with any deck

Of course you could learn impromptu effects from a shuffled deck and there are tons of things discussed in a different forum. But this forum is about the memdeck. So to stop this thread from getting hijacked any more, I suggest to check out Pit Hartling's book "In order to Amaze" which features many many stack independed tricks you will like and use.

According to my sources, Mnemonica will be reprinted in the start of 2018, so I'll hold off for a little longer so I can buy the book at a decent price.



Thanks for the suggestion, immediatly added it to my wish list!

Sorry but mr. Loraynes words are quite clear, his books are meant exclusively for me ;-)

Because of some of the remarks herein someone sent this to me saying that I should post it. I'm a terrible computer person so not sure if I can, may have to write it out and then copy it here. I believe that it originally appeared here at the Café; not sure. But with the hope that it doesn't give Mr. RiderBack a stomachache - it does fall into one of the categories about me that he listed above (guess I should thank him for its appearance) - here it is:

"Harry Lorayne is a great inspiration to the Magic Community, the most influential and relied upon close-up magic author in my lifetime, the world's most influential and successful memory expert, the man that through his own publications has given more young, enthusiastic magicians more opportunities than any other magic author in the world.

"He is one of our best and brightest, one whose life experiences and successes tower above the rest.

"Kids need to know that if you want to be successful, you need to read and heed the words of those who are truly successful: Harry Lorayne defines success, and has raised the bar in magic literature that actually teaches, not just pontificates.

"Harry Lorayne is a tremendous asset to any magic forum. He built Magic, he has lived Magic, and he has freely shared that knowledge acquired over a lifetime of hard work, with those that show only a MINIMAL AMOUNT of respect, IF ANY. (Hah!)

"While Mr. Lorayne does not always suffer fools gladly, there is scant reason why he should. Harry Lorayne is a living legend, proof positive that great, often fabulous results can be achieved through clever routining, strong presentation, and attention to detail. He has put more and better good magic: practical, performable, memorable magic in front of those who seek it than anyone else on the planet.

"Harry Lorayne has made magic books readable, understandable, and enjoyable. Harry Lorayne has changed the face of close-up magic like no other: and magic is a far greater, richer, better place for is outstanding efforts and achievements.

"Harry Lorayne is a huge asset to any magic venue, a person whose presence should be loudly celebrated."

Here's one idea: Go back through material that doesn't use a stack, and see where a stack might be used to enhance the effect or mystery.

My first card book was, in fact, Mr. Lorayne's "Close Up Card Magic". My first copy is on my "sentimental" shelf, but my current working copy is riddled with notes on almost every effect: "Good for Jumbo Cards"; "Try with Tarot Cards"; "Even better with a stripper deck"; etc. I return to that book, and others like it, every time I am exploring a new idea in card magic, to see how I might apply it without completely re-inventing the wheel.

That said, there's a lot of stuff you can do with a stack that is impractical without one, and there is plenty of opportunity to borrow decks and let spectators shuffle and still do stack work. Many of the tricks in those old books use a stack of 10 or more cards anyway. As long as knowledge is well applied, it can only aid us. Learning a stack and what it's capable of can compliment our card magic; It doesn't have to consume it entirely.

We can always dismiss one method with another, but to what end? Why should anyone work without a stack, if they just perfect a deck switch? Why learn a double lift, if you can do the pass? Why learn more than one force? These questions seem absurd to me. The benefit of having multiple methods to achieve the same effects is self-evident. I can't think of any good reason to *not learn* an aspect of our craft that excites your creativity and imagination.

Well said - but one reason not to learn "an aspect of our craft" for me anyway - is to learn stacks --- since I work ONLY with borrowed decks. Yes; there are some stacks that I can do "impromptuly" - which I've taught in a couple of my books - you might check out Blown Further Away, for example. But for full memdecks - would be a waste of time/effort for me.

Perhaps it’s fair to say full stack mem-deck does not “excite your creativity and imagination”. I certainly don’t expect anyone to learn magic that doesn’t tickle their toes. On a side note, how do you manage to exclusively perform for audiences who carry their own decks? Do you ask the clients ahead of time to bring cards with them?

When I was doing table magic - a hundred years ago - and people booked me for personal affairs - part of my contract, aside from the compensation, was that they have two decks there - one red-backed and one blue-backed. And - when I was introduced they had to mention that these were their decks.

Doing magic for pay hasn't been part of my life for about seven decades. So over those decades when friends or anyone who knew "me and mine" and if they wanted to see me do some magic - they had to have a deck handy. Many times people ran out to buy a deck. I simply will not carry my own deck unless I'm showing stuff to other magicians - never/ever for laymen. That way I never hear - haven't for those decades - "Impossible; has to be a trick deck!"

Again over the decades - I'd be doing an appearance - my memory work - and the guy who booked me (who obviously knew my magic background) would ask if I'd do some card magic for some of his special guests - and I'd say "sure - if you have a deck of cards available."

As to the OP's question, stack workers should pick up, in addition to Redford, works by Tamariz, Marlo, and Aronson. No question. But a stack is just a tool, and it should not be the only tool you rely upon. You have to be willing to give up your stack and perform effects which do not require a stack. If you have the stack in your toolkit, you will occasionally be able to turn effects which don't require a stack into miracles, but you should not depend upon that. All authors mentioned provide stack-independent effects, which is to say that those effects will work with any stack. But a "stack independent" effect is an effect which requires some stack. And you need to supplement your stack work with effects which do not require any stack.

It is a gross mistake to think that a single method will provide you with all you need. If you favor stack work, you can always take a shuffled deck in use and deck swap it for a stacked deck. But a deck swap will require motivation, and that motivation will usually be an effect which isn't one which relies on a stacked deck. (The best deck swaps are motivated by effects that can be achieved without a stack. But there are other ways of swapping decks...)

OP,

I was interested for a while in stack work. I used Si Stebbins and Eight Kings for way longer than I should have before moving to Mnemonica.
I wanted to move to Mnemonica earlier because I'd seen a magician friend of mine absolutely run a bar one night in New York using the stack and related effects. Juan Tamariz is an enlightened magician and several of his other books really transformed my material.
Like you, I believe, I discovered Mnemonica was out of print and copies were selling on Ebay for around 500-1000 dollars.
I was able to find one, however, fairly priced by google searching for magic shops in non-english speaking countries. I eventually bought the last copy from a Dutch magic site with a simple click. Fish around if you can: it is very much worth it.
Two lifetimes would not be enough to internalize all the information inside of Mnemonica and a lot of it is more technical than I will ever begin.

The companion DVD series from Dan and Dave (I think) is a great supplement, but not a substitution for the book.

A solid foundation of false shuffles and cuts is always in order for stack work. However, I find when doing stack work, the magic seems more mysterious than mechanical so there is less scrutiny on the hands. I use Erdnase overhand false shuffle for retaining full stock, and I do it slowly and maybe only once or twice. The power of Mnemonica over mathematical stacks like Si is that it looks quite shuffled. I can lay all the cards face out, false cut once or twice and begin.

Thanks for your reply! I've currently already memorised the Redford Stack which has some great properties to it, but I must admit that I sometimes fear the spectator will notice some kind of pattern in most of the deck. This could very well just be my magician's mind overthinking stuff, and so far it has always gone unnoticed.

Erdnase provides no plausible OH shuffle which retains full stock. Cuts? Sure. Shuffles. No. You should ignore "Bind Shuffles, Retaining Entire Order, First Method". Fail.

The Erdnase blind shuffles work very well to retain the full stock. I use them all the time. The shuffle referenced: Blind Shuffles, Retaining Entire Order, First Method retains the order and cuts the deck. The stack can be brought back with a single cut, which usually follows a shuffle anyway. Vernon gave a wily tip in Revelations where he directed you make the last throw a single card. The deck can be turned face up and repeated and the deck is back in full deck order.