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Magic-Daniel Inner circle Denmark 1328 Posts |
If you really wants to find flaws, take any sleight out there.......NO sleight is perfect
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
I'm dealing with final exams, so my time has been limited. At the end of the semester, my classes become life-alteringly important for students, who "NEED" a certain grade to remain in the country, or keep a scholarship. There's also an epidemic of grandma-death.
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On Dec 9, 2017, magicfish wrote: Yes, which is why I said it "obviously relies on misdirection." Quote:
To mirror your sarcasm: Careful. This can actually be a pretty good trick. Ken Sands has stories about flinging cards under the cover of misdirection, and getting ridiculous reactions. Quote:
The problem with your z-move is that there IS no insertion into the deck. It's so efficient. Quote:
This is what generates the conviction. Yes, inserting a card into the deck helps foster conviction. Rubbing the pack immediately after insertion, however, diminishes conviction.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
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On Dec 9, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: I still don't mind calling it "one of the most useless" moves. If I were to insist upon a change I would say, "one of the most useless moves out of moves that are well-regarded." That's a bit cumbersome. Quote:
2) All that discourse about economy feels a bit off. We are performers of an art. Not all decisions must be made only with "economy" or "efficiency" in mind. Some are emotional, some are personal choices. I understand we need to base ourselves in some science (and some solid concepts), but in the end, the "efficiency" we want is related on how the spectators perceive that magical moment. I think the main point is: a move is a move, but the way to apply it and to execute it (assuming the same skill level) can be completely different for two different performers, which can be the difference between success and failure. Of course people are free to do as they please. An "art" frame seems like a deliberate move to cast everything as hopelessly subjective, a situation where the X-Move and Z-Move are among the choices available to the artist.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1550 Posts |
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On Dec 9, 2017, Bill Hallahan wrote: Oh, OK. Quote:
Dai Vernon was a big fan of the move. I have heard he practiced it often. If it wasn't worthwhile, I don't think he would have used it. Does this solid reasoning also justify alcoholism? The very first tape I bought out of the REVELATIONS series was the one on the DPS, precisely because it dealt with the DPS. It's on VHS so, unfortunately, I can't review it. I can tell you my memory of it: disappointing. Quote:
Unlike some of the good controls you mentioned, when someone puts their card in the middle of the deck, and then the magician pushes it all the way in, the audience typically "knows" that the magician cannot have controlled the card. Because of this, the magician can easily move the moment the magic takes place. Well, that settles it.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
Vernon did DPS extremely well.
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Cain wrote:
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Does this solid reasoning also justify alcoholism? The very first tape I bought out of the REVELATIONS series was the one on the DPS, precisely because it dealt with the DPS. It's on VHS so, unfortunately, I can't review it. I can tell you my memory of it: disappointing. Arguing from authority is a logical fallacy, so me stating Dai Vernon liked the DPS is not proof - however, nonetheless, Dai Vernon was usually (always?) right about magic. Also numerous great magicians have mentioned the utility of the move. After Whit Haydn't posted it's a valuable move, I feel kind of silly arguing for the DPS, but I do have experience with it. Cain wrote: Quote:
I wrote: I presume you're being sarcastic. If not, I apologize. Sarcasm isn't an argument. It's just a rejection. Saying you weren't impressed isn't an argument either. The DPS has advantages and disadvantages. Le Paul created a different move because the DPS isn't deceptive when performing on an elevated stage where the audience is below the magician. I'm not claiming you need to use the DPS, but your rejection of the move as undesirable for all magicians is objectively wrong. The DPS does satisfy a certain set conditions.
Very few other moves meet those conditions as well as the DPS does. Compare that to Marlo's Convincing Control followed by a bottom palm. That is a very deceptive sequence, but it involves both more movement and more time than the DPS. I might use that sequence in some situations, as it has other advantages that outweigh the "movement and time" disadvantage, but in many situations, I'd use the DPS.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Ricardo Delgado Loyal user 230 Posts |
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On Dec 14, 2017, Cain wrote: Well, that's not really my point. I'll try again. Assuming that the effect is the percepetion of the spectator of a construction, created by the magician and composed by actions and/or patter positioned along the timeline of the presentation, that already serves as a limit to what we can do. Also, that is what should guide the magician's choice (no pun intended) of sleights and motivations he would use to achieve a certain effect. A very crude example: If the magician want to present the idea that he doesn't need to make any moves (for any reason he might choose, as that is the most "artistic/subjective part" of the creation process) on a simple pick-a-card trick in order to find the card, then there are some moves he may not use. Moves that "you do nothing" would be the main choice here (even if that 'do nothing" actually is reversing, squaring or moving the deck from the spectators point of view). On the other hand if, with the same idea of the pick-a-card trick, the performer wants to present a "great ability" with cards, then another set of sleights would do a better job. That way, although we pursuit efficiency on magic, the artistic side has an great role in it. And that definitely is not a way to say everything is subjective and that anything is valid. Maybe the thing is that each side of this debate has a particular way to look at magic, and that frame of mind results in choices and opinions that each one thinks it is the only logical way to see and do things. Although irony won't help others to see your point, this is, at least for me, a very interesting discussion. We should question everything. Even what most people think is a golden rule or what so and so masters of this craft have said. But, Cain, I'm curious: regarding to art, science, etc... which frame do you use and think about magic and to create it? |
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Blindside785 Inner circle Olympia, WA 4541 Posts |
Here is my control I share with people interested in the diagonal palm shift.
https://youtu.be/RPfRBA2lTos |
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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts |
@ Blindside785
That looks pretty good. thanks for sharing. |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
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On Dec 14, 2017, Bill Hallahan wrote: It's only a fallacy if the person in question isn't an actual authority on the subject at hand. It's a fallacy to suggest that a racecar driver is correct about a brain-surgery argument merely because he or she is a successful racecar driver. It isn't a fallacy to suggest that a board-certified neuro-surgeon is correct about a brain surgery issue. Vernon was an authority on magic and the DPS, so there is no logical fallacy. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
It's a bit more complicated than that.
Stating that Dai Vernon liked the DPS actually falls into the realm of factual statements. Stating that the DPS is good because Dai Vernon liked it is solid inductive reasoning, but fallacious deductive reasoning. An inductive argument can be strong and yet still ultimately fallacious. The real measure of whether or not it's raining outside isn't up to how honoured the weatherman is, but rather, whether or not it's ACTUALLY raining outside. In any case, it makes sense to analyze the move based on its merits. After all, Dai Vernon himself did.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Burnaby,
I was merely pointing out that you only have an informal argument from authority fallacy if the "authority" you point to isn't really an authority. Yes, experts in any field can be wrong, but the argument from authority fallacy (at least the informal variety) is typically only assessed when you're pointing to a person who isn't an authority on the topic at hand.Many modern logic texts have shifted to calling this fallacy the "appeal to unqualified authority" or "false authority." Vernon may or may not have been right about the DPS, but he was clearly not an unqualified authority on magic or the techniques in The Expert at the Card Table. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
"I was merely pointing out that you only have an informal argument from authority fallacy if the "authority" you point to isn't really an authority."
Technically, the credibility of the authority is irrelevant to whether or not a deductive fallacy is being committed by arguing from authority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority It's honestly not that big a deal, though, especially when it comes down to things that are largely unknowable on an objective level. Again, an argument borne of inductive reasoning can be strong (and even valuable) and yet still ultimately fallacious on a deductive level.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Welcome back, Andrew! This place isn't the same without you.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts |
Get out, Andrew! Leave when you have the chance!
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steve ehlers Loyal user Tucson AZ 287 Posts |
Blindside, That looked really good.
Steve |
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puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
Blindside - that looked nice/'soft', thanks for sharing. I use a handling variation taught by James Prince which seems to work well from most angles.
Andrew - Welcome back. |
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Blindside's video does look good. The only problem is that the viewing angle is not what a spectator would normally see. I'd love to see it shot from a more typical viewing angle to better assess its deceptiveness.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 18, 2017, The Burnaby Kid wrote: Burnaby, I get it. I really do. I just don't think Bill meant what he said in a deductive sense. He appeared to be lumping all appeals to authority into one basket. https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/06/23/......thority/ The very first sentence in that article: "The Argument from Authority is often misunderstood to be a fallacy in all cases, when this is not necessarily so." This is the point I was making to Bill. The second sentence clarifies what you're getting at. Bill didn't clarify that, so I made the point that not all appeals to authority are fallacious. As you've mentioned here twice, the deductive ones are, the inductive ones are not. Maybe that's what Bill meant, but he didn't clarify that, so I did. A bit further down in that article: "Thus there is no fallacy entailed in arguing that the advice of an expert in his or her field should be accepted as true, at least for the time being, unless and until it is effectively refuted. A fallacy only arises when it is claimed or implied that the expert is infallible and that therefore his or her advice must be true as a deductive argument, rather than as a matter of probability. Criticisms of cogent arguments from authority[3] can actually be a rejection of expertise, which is a fallacy of its own." Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Magic-Daniel Inner circle Denmark 1328 Posts |
......so Jason. What do you think of the DPS as move in the real world?☺
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