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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1729 Posts 
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Magic-Daniel,
Whenever I find myself needing to cleanly insert a selection into the front of the deck and immediately palming it out into my left hand it's the first move I think of. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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That clip of Vernon was impressive, thanks.
 Wow!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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The DPS is one of the easier to master sleights. It's far easier to master than the DL, for example. It's an excellent tool to have in your arsenal. The folks who are deriding it are clueless mooks. Yes, Cain, that includes you. This is one of the most effective fairly-inserted card-to-palm moves around. I'm still not sure why Erdnase calls it a "shift".
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1729 Posts
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Riderbacks,
A closer reading of The Expert at the Card Table will show you that he doesn't really consider the DPS a "shift." The text repeatedly refers to the move as a "palm-shift" to distance it pedagogically from shifts that only transpose packets. He even compares the DPS to "regular shifts" (his phrase) at one point, demonstrating that he felt his move was different. As he describes in one of the last paragraphs of the DPS section, the standard in that day was first to shift (one action) and then to palm (two actions). Erdnase combined those two moves into a single technique that he termed a "palm-shift" since his one move accomplished the same thing as the standard two-move sequence. I think it's pretty clear that he didn't think of this move as a shift in the usual sense; he was differentiating it from all the other shifts. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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Thanks for your reply, Jason. This is interesting food for thought. I still wish he hadn't called it a "shift", but I think you're definitely on to something here.
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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts
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I think it should be called diagonal shift palm.
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Ricardo Delgado Loyal user 230 Posts
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Why not "Diagonal Palm Steal" (since there is actually no shift)?
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1729 Posts
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There's no "pass" in a "Bluff Pass" either but nobody has any problems with the name.
Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2017, JasonEngland wrote: That's because calling something the "Bluff Pass" is basically like calling it a "Fake Pass" or a "Fake Pass Substitute". The name "Bluff Pass" clearly telegraphs that it's not a real Pass/Shift. Similarly, the Diagonal Palm Shift is neither a Shift or as Pass. As others have already mentioned, Erdnase would have done better to call the move the Diagonal Palm Steal. That move has been improved upon. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jzvnZpZpTU&feature=youtu.be |
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SimonCard Special user 601 Posts
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2017, RiderBacks wrote: The squeeze palm looks not bad, but I don't think it's an improvement from DSP. DSP looks way better and more natural. |
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1553 Posts
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So much of this can be settled by simply reading for comprehension.
Quote:
On Dec 14, 2017, Bill Hallahan wrote: And let's revisit the context: BH wrote: Quote:
I've used the DPS before, and found it to be very effective. Cain replied: Quote:
Well, that settles it. You see, the sarcasm was in response to a non-argument. Quote:
but your rejection of the move as undesirable for all magicians is objectively wrong. The only thing objectively wrong is your contention. I conceded very early on that I could not think of an alternative to the special circumstances required of Haydn's routine. So that's ONE instance. As per Internet culture, I think I'm now obligated to say something about broken clocks being right TWICE a day. Quote:
The DPS does satisfy a certain set conditions. Which has been discussed. Quote:
DPS apologists are on much firmer ground when arguing the move is to be used during an off-beat (e.g., an already found selection is casually discarded/replaced in the deck and palmed out). The circumstances you describe are precisely the kind I think people should avoid. "Observe, ladies and gentleman, this fine young man has inserted his non-forced selection into the pack." The main argument for the move is that it accomplishes a control and a palm in one herky-jerky action -- I mean, one fell swoop. Quote:
Compare that to Marlo's Convincing Control followed by a bottom palm. That is a very deceptive sequence, but it involves both more movement and more time than the DPS. I might use that sequence in some situations, as it has other advantages that outweigh the "movement and time" disadvantage, but in many situations, I'd use the DPS. I'm not a fan of the Convincing Control either: "Observe, ladies and gentlemen, I leave the card projecting out. That's the card right there. You see it, yes? Well, the back. Anyway, that's your unforced selection, 100%." I'm sorry I do not have many abstract arguments against the DPS. Unfortunately, my posts often boil down to, "Well, let's just look at it." Such a precarious position... As for this stuff about an "appeal to authority," I agree that Vernon's opinion (and other recognized greats) should weigh on anyone evaluating the move. If nothing else, "But Vernon said..." is an incredibly useful heuristic (and humans are notorious cognitive misers). Obviously, it's not a great move BECAUSE Vernon said so. Vernon presumably said it was great because it is. Would gobs of people suddenly regard the move as terrible if Vernon had hated it? (Heh, maybe.)
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1729 Posts
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2017, RiderBacks wrote: I was merely making the point that a move can contain a term without actually belonging to the group that the term names. In the case of the DPS, Erdnase clearly felt that the move accomplished the same thing as a shift+palm so he gave it the name he gave it. Another reason is undoubtedly that he was merely following the custom of the times. The DPS wasn't original to Erdnase. He didn't invent it, he just improved it and taught it better. You can find a much earlier version in Sach's Sleight of Hand which was published in 1885 (17 years prior to Erdnase). Edwin Sachs refers to the move as a "diagonal pass." If you're going to blame someone, blame Sachs. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts
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Cain wrote:
Quote:
You see, the sarcasm was in response to a non-argument. My experience matches that of people more able and knowledgeable than I am, and so my experience IS a valid argument. Cain wrote: Quote:
I'm sorry I do not have many abstract arguments against the DPS. Unfortunately, my posts often boil down to, "Well, let's just look at it." Such a precarious position... Cain wrote much earlier in the topic: Quote:
Ha, you're not alone. It's one of the most useless moves out there. Good luck making it work. You posted at least three other claims the move is bad. Several false claims you made are not abstract, such that the insertion is a problem and that the move is herky-jerky. Cain wrote later: Quote:
I conceded very early on that I could not think of an alternative to the special circumstances required of Haydn's routine. So that's ONE instance. But there are good alternatives. The DPS can be done and the deck handed out immediately to someone on the right. This is mentioned in the book, "The Expert At The Card Table", and Paul Chosse, and others have written about how they have used the move this way. As to this being a "herky-jerky" move, Rupert Pumpkin already showed it's not, by posting this video, where the move is done smoothly by Dai Vernon when he was very old. Rupert Pumpkin wrote: Quote:
By the way, Vernon kills it at :55, here: I'll let others who watch Dai Vernon perform the move decide if it's deceptive. Cain wrote: Quote:
The circumstances you describe are precisely the kind I think people should avoid. "Observe, ladies and gentleman, this fine young man has inserted his non-forced selection into the pack." The main argument for the move is that it accomplishes a control and a palm in one herky-jerky action -- I mean, one fell swoop. The distinction between the magician inserting the card and displaying it, and a participant inserting the card, and the magician displaying it, doesn't matter, since both cases end with the display. If displayed, when the deck is turned down with chosen the card parallel to the ground, and the deck held properly for the move, that case becomes the case in the video of Dai Vernon doing the move. And, again, the move can be done and the deck immediately handed to someone on the right, which can cover all motions. Cain wrote: Quote:
Would gobs of people suddenly regard the move as terrible if Vernon had hated it? (Heh, maybe.) I don't know - perhaps, but then if Vernon hadn't been such a proponent of the book, The Expert At The Card Table, fewer magicians would have read that book too. To summarize, the DPS is not useless, the DPS is not bad, and a video of Dai Vernon doing the DPS contradicts your claims about the move, and multiple professional magician's experience with the move contradicts your claims too.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Magic-Daniel Inner circle Denmark 1328 Posts
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The more I look at that clip of Vernon (at close to 90 years old?) doing the move, the better it looks. And it is even totally out of context. Just displaying the move head on. Bravo!
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Motor City Special user Metro Detroit Area 587 Posts
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Vernon was "The Man".
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thesmurfman New user 25 Posts
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2017, Rattooth wrote: I have seen Aaron Fisher do some remarkable things with the DPS. His entire pedagogy on the bottom palm and left hand palm, merging with the DPS... it's all a thing of beauty. You can do some things with DPS that I am not sure you can (I have not seen done) with other steals. Even when I know what he is doing, I have no clue, can't see it, but most important, I don't perceive or sense when he does the moves usually. |
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Posted: Dec 18, 2017 11:23 pm 
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