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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
The signed card.....is it really needed ?
Personally it's very rare that I get a card signed even at a paid booking, that's not to say I don't get cards signed. I have a card signed for a stickman routine that I do but obviously the back of the card gets drawn on so I'm going to give the card away regardless, I have a card signed for anniversary waltz and very occasionally for a mystery card routine. Even when I do card to wallet I don't get it signed even though I actually p**m the card and the response is always brilliant which makes me think that perhaps getting a card signed is more a magician thing than anything else so for me the card only gets signed if it actually adds to the routine. Try it yourselves do a card to wallet routine and try it with and without the signature and see if there really is a difference, I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this subject ? |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
I think in most cases the card being signed adds nothing for lay audiences, and is purely to satisfy the magician(s).
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Gerald Deutsch Special user 526 Posts |
See The Unsigned Card Trick on the Perverse Magic thread of the Genii Forum In September 2005
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts |
This all depends on what trick you're doing. For card to wallet, the signature is just a single layer in what should be multiple layers or deception. If you're consciously choosing to avoid it, then you must consider how else you're going to steer them away from the very likely possiblity that you're using a duplicate. You could have the card named, for instance (though Darwin wouldn't recommend that).
It does raise the question: If you're not bothering to have the card signed, why NOT just force a duplicate? Yes, it's as lame as it sounds, but it sounds like you've resigned yourself to that exact trick, minus the method. |
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2983 Posts |
Signing is the only proof that the card isn't a dupe. I think specs can imagine a dupe in, say, Ambitious Card. I always have the card signed. I think it matters.
Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
The only card I ever had signed was during an ACR, and I only did that for a moment of misdirection. That routine came in 3rd on the set. The first trick involved them seeing the fronts and backs of the entire deck, the second trick (Chicago Opener) involved them taking the deck and looking through to pick one card. By the time I was doing the ACR I had done impossible things with the cards, and they'd looked at every piece of the deck and knew it was totally normal.
No one ever commented about dupes or trick decks. I can't say they never thought it, but they never said it.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Ricardo Delgado Loyal user 230 Posts |
The effect is the same obviously, so the addition of the signature shouldn't make a difference.
There are other ways to make people don't even suspect about duplicates. But I think that for cards appearing inside of food (lemon, bread, cake, egg...) the signed card could be a plus. "Could be" because I don't perform any of that, so I don't know. Also for a card inside a sealed transparent thing (sealed acrylic box, sealed bottle, sealed cellophane of a new deck (but outside of the box) or "impossible to open" object, where the spectator can see right away that is his/her card is inside, the signature adds meaning. Because for sealed things, people may think there was a duplicate inside before, because if it is impossible to open now, probably it was when the trick started. I think, in this case, when the recognition is immediate, I presume the effect should be better. |
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Ricardo Delgado Loyal user 230 Posts |
Another point to consider is that maybe is not that the effect is stronger with a signed card, but the way to interpret the effect is different. With a signed card there is no doubt about where the card came from, it IS the selected card. So the path the spectators minds must walk is: 1) that is my card. 2) my card was in the deck. 3) my card appeared inside the wallet. and finally the important question: 4) HOW DID IT GET THERE?
That question tells us what the spectator will try to remember or what he is looking for. In this case is a physical transposition of the card. With a well performed effect, the question remains unanswered: "He never touched his wallet". So there is no solution. In the "card without signature" scenario the path his/her mind goes through is different: 1) that is the card I choose. 2) that card was in the deck. 3) the card appeared inside the wallet. Here it can take different paths: if the wallet was never shown empty in the first place: 4) was the card already there?. 5) did I have a free choice in the selection or was I influenced? 6) If I look in the deck right now, will I find the same card there? So we must deal with those questions in order to leave no possible solution (even fake and farfetched solutions specs sometimes invent: he hided it on his sleeve; he has 52 different wallets hidden; etc). In my opinion, the effect is stronger when the spectators arrive at the answers and at the conclusion that is impossible by themselves. If most of them ask to see the deck at the end of the effect, even if they are proved wrong on their theories, the effect does not play that strong. |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Thanks for everyone's input it's much appreciated.
As a few people mentioned why not just use a dupe or that the spectators may think a dupe is used which is interesting I thought I would expand a little, usually the card to wallet is either used as an added kicker or when someone asks to shuffle the cards so it acts as an out. I have the card selected in a very fair manner and always ask if they want to change their mind so I guess in the spectators mind then it must be the actual card, believe me when I say some of the people I perform for would have no problem in telling me how I did things if they thought for a second I was using a dupe but as it's never been suggested I've never considered the signing of the card to be a big thing. Perhaps if I was performing just the card to wallet or a card to impossible location as the main effect then I would get the card signed and make a big deal about it. For the record I'm not against getting the card signed especially if it adds to the effect and whenever I perform a bill to impossible location I always get the bill signed. It does make me think of trying some stuff with a dupe just to see how it plays although not for card to wallet as it's easier just to load my wallet. Something that I would incorporate into my presentation if I were to use a dupe though would be to show that the card had in fact vanished from the deck. |
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puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
I strongly believe that for many effects, having the card signed really does matter for 2 reasons:
1: Your audience can relax more as they don't have to remember the card. I've seen many live performances where the unsigned card is revealed and there is a moment of hesitation as they try to remember or else another person has to verify the card. Add a bit of alcohol and a signature helps even more... 2: I often hear specs say things along the lines of ..'and I even put a little squiggle/kiss (or whatever) there...' In other words, it can add to the belief/experience. Signing a card allows for more interaction (Jon Allen's Ad-Libitious card is an interesting variation which allows more interaction/fun). 3: Generally the spec will want to keep the card if signed (I normally say that as it has their name on it, they may want to keep it or dispose of it), which should make a stronger memory of the magic, you or both. Okay, that was 3 reasons. Of the few routines that I nearly always perform, one place I don't get a card signed is when I start with a thought of card, but I then get it signed to help build the rest of the routine. So I'm a part timer and I respect that many will disagree, but for me I expect to use 1-2 new decks at each performance and would not consider going unsigned unless forced to.. Of course, borrowing a deck or doing a 10 person multi-selection would be a different kettle of fish... Charlie |
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puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
PS in terms of a dupe, one of the most 'impactful' card effects that I have performed was a signature switch (from the top - signed x card, card, dupe x card, they sign then DL, you sign then DL...). The only reason I don't often use it is that I'm mainly FASDIU with the odd stranger card these days.
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lunatik Inner circle 3225 Posts |
The spectator might not mention the possibility of a dup, but doesn't mean that they're not thinking it.
the spectator might not think of the possibility of there being a dup, but when they share their experience with someone else, that person might mention it and then that person might think "you're right, it probably was a duplicate!" but if it was signed, problem solved and the effect is still strong. just my .02
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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Huzzah New user 53 Posts |
For the card to wallet, I think part of it depends on the setting. If it's a casual encounter like hanging out with friends or whatever, then I think it's less likely that they'll think about dupes because the situation creates an unprepared and spontaneous feeling atmosphere so it seems improbable that you're prepared enough to have put another card in your wallet on the off chance you happen to end up doing magic. On the other hand, if it's a more formal performance, I think signing would be more important because the audience recognizes that you are a professional who has taken the time to put together some tricks for them so it doesn't seem too ridiculous that you've also prepared enough to have put a card in your wallet before hand.
I think this topic also introduces the concept of an audiences intellectual vs emotional interpretation of an effect. The intellectual interpretation is your ability to describe the effect and speculate how it was done, i.e. looking objectively at the trick and its workings. Emotional interpretation brings us into that magic feeling. I very much believe that magic is a feeling that can't be described. We (magicians) are in a situation of "we know what's best for you" in that the audience doesn't know about the psychology and importance of subtleties in a trick. We can perform a trick badly (let's say you put a card in the deck and immediately control it via shuffling, leaving out important time misdirection) and the audience may say they like it and admit they don't know how it's done, but we know they'll react better if the trick is performed better. The audience can't say exactly how magical the first performance felt, they just have this feeling they can't articulate that something was...off. I think the same thing applies with signatures. many times it's not necessary, but sometimes, even if the spectators don't specifically think about the possibility of duplicates, that "off" feeling can still exist in the back of their minds. I don't think the signature contributes to the intellectual interpretation of the effect because they still know it's the same card, even without the signature, but I do think that the signature contributes to the emotional interpretation of the effect, making it feel more magical, because the audience can't exactly describe or even recognize that the signatures existence makes the effect more impossible. To put it simply, even if there is no doubt that the card is the same one they picked, the signature puts into the subconscious minds of the audience an emphasis on that fact that it's the exact same one they saw go into the deck and therefore could not be inside that wallet. I like thinking about magic theory and psychology a lot, but I'm not a good writer so I apologize if that made no sense. |
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3086 Posts |
I'm with puggo on this. I think most are missing the main point here. Having the card signed serves as ownership and the spectators have a vested interest. It provides value to THEM.
Most times there are several people at the table (restaurant setting, the majority of my work) and sometimes I have everyone sign the card for a finale routine. They WANT to keep the card as a keepsake for their time together. (special occasion, friends from out of town etc) I most always have cards signed or a symbol drawn that has meaning THEM. It's ALL about our spectators. That's why we do what we do or at least it should be. FWIW.
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Some more very interesting points especially the emotional hook part and definitely the part of allowing the spectators to relax by not having to remember their card, to shed a little more light when I work a table I only perform one card trick and a signature would ruin the effect but everyone knows what the card is as its quickly revealed in an amusing manner and then goes onto have multiple kickers the card in wallet being one of them.
Lunatik I live in the UK and the audiences are very different to those in the USA for example and they are only to happy to reveal how something is done if they think they know especially some of my work mates haha My reason for the question isn't so much for my commercial work when performing at tables its more what I've found in general when I've been put on the spot to perform there's never been any doubt that the card was the selection and I've had some huge reactions, having said that I've had huge reactions when the card is signed too especially with the stickman routine and like others some of the spectators have said they have kept the card and pulled it out to show me they still have it when they have seen me again so yes it obviously does have a strong emotional hook but who wouldn't want to keep a stickman card ;-) Just to add I don't think there is a right or wrong answer for this particular question as a lot of it is down to the actual performer combine this with the fact that some routines can benefit from the signature whilst for others it wouldn't make sense. |
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Julie Inner circle 3936 Posts |
When using a dupe consider having a similar blemish (such as a bent corner) on BOTH cards. A conscientious audience helper just might notice that, thereby confirming in his/her mind it is the "same" card.
Julie |
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
Sometimes I have them sign it, and sometimes not. The points about 'vested interest' I think is especially important when there are other friends/specs around. I can't imagine performing "your signed card" without a signature; and I always give it as a keepsake! As for the signature being proof that it is not a duplicate... I think of that as icing on the cake. I think the more important part is their vested interest. eg think of card to ceiling... "that's my name up there!" Lynn
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
I don't focus on card magic, but I have an opinion anyway, naturally.
One of the jobs we have is to take away every possible explanation for what appears to have happened. Sometimes, having a card signed can remove a possible (and very reasonable) explanation of a duplicate. We also want them to be able to defend the story they tell about the magician who had them pick a card and then found it in an impossible location. "It must have been a duplicate." "No, it couldn't have been, I signed the card and my signature was on it when she produced it." We need them to be able to defend that story to skeptical listeners, for THAT is where magic lives. Another job we have is to make the magic personal to our volunteers. DavidPaul$ said it very well. This may be your 300th show this year, but it is a singular experience in the spectator's life. And a signed card can help in making it personal and memorable. Also, a signature can be a convincer for something else. I occasionally do a mentalism routine where I predict a word the spec is thinking of, which uses the Out To Lunch principle with a signed card. The audience thinks I've predicted one word, which they watch me write on a card that the spec signs. At the end, it's revealed that the word is completely different, but it's on the same signed card. The signature is a convincer that the same card has magically changed words. But for most card tricks, I don't think a signature adds much. There should be a reason for everything you do. If you can't think of why the signature is necessary, then I wouldn't do it.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
I remember one brick and mortar magic shop I once entered (just can't remember it now). The ceiling was decorated with signed cards... that is, signed by celebrity magicians! Lynn
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griffindance Regular user 145 Posts |
A signed object ties an audience to the favourable outcome of a trick.
Think of the childhood arguments "It got my name on it, it mine!" By having an object signed the magician reduces the audience's expectation that a dup could be used. It also transfers the appearance of ownership of that object to the audience member who signed it and by extension the rest of the audience. If you notice the difference between the audience attention while doing a trick with an object you've supplied yourself and a borrowed item, you can appreciate the extra attention dedicated to an object not considered "the magician's property." Of course, with close up shows a signed object can be given to the spectator. Giving an object is a souvenir, it is also seen as a gift and who doesn't like "free stuff" The other audience members may reinvest interest in the rest of the show if there is the chance of them also getting a souvenir. |
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