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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
If your morals/ethics make you feel strange, then simply stop doing that thing...
I've asked to be banned
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I don't understand the issue. You are playing a cartoon character and presenting a magic show...I don't really see a believablity issue.
But if it bothers you, as Iain said, stop doing it. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
No one is going to take a performer seriously who is dressed in the manner you described. The very best you can hope for is to be considered a "mental magician" or someone who performs mental magic -- mind themed magic.
A mentalist is not an illusionist. He is not a magician. He is a mentalist. Mentalism is related to magic and illusion in the same way that the languages Korean, Chinese and Japanese are related. They may sound similar -- and perhaps have some similarities -- but they are NOT the same. The greatest difference is the INTENT of the performance. Osterlind often says -- and correctly so -- that no one wants to see a fake mentalist. Why go to all the trouble, work and effort to present a mind reading effect and then say to your audience: "But everything you've just seen was a trick"??? Does that make sense? Better to cut to the chase and perform the same show your audience is going to expect -- that of a mental magician. The whole issue of "mentalist's" guilt is a whole new mess of things that need to be resolved. I wrestled with this for a very long time when I started. But here's the thing: I am CONVINCED that I was not performing believable mentalism until I had looked that guilt square in the eye and kicked it to the curb, ran over it in my car and then set it on fire. Until you reach the point where you are COMPLETELY comfortable presenting mentalism as mentalism (actual mind reading) you will be conflicted about what you're doing...and as a result will be working against your own performance. Conflicted performers cannot present what they do with conviction. It simply does not work. It canNOT work. Come to terms with what you are about, what you want the audience to believe and how YOU choose to view what you're about FIRST. If you can't get comfortable with what you need to do as a mentalist -- no harm, no foul. Hit the stage as a mental magician. Many do. But do not expect to be taken seriously as a mentalist if you don't see yourself that way. Understand that I have great empathy for what you're going through. If you send me your email in a PM I'll send you my book "Crap I Think About" as welcome-to-mentalism gift. The whole idea of how to deal with that guilt and reframe what you do as true mentalism is a theme that runs through many of the chapters. I get it...but it has to be dealt with one way or another. The bottom line? Until you believe it, your audience won't. Hopefully this is helpful. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
David's "Crap" is a a great book, as I'm reading it now, highly recommended.
There is a saying in business that a confused mind never buys. It is also very apropos here as well in mentalism perception. |
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Cleverpaws Regular user Northern California 155 Posts |
I am curious why you don't feel comfortable with people ACTUALLY believing you're reading their mind. It's no different than a magician making something vanish and the audience believing you really made that item disappear. Unless your'e telling someone they will have something tragic happen to them tomorrow or similar, your goal should be to make them think something amazing just happened and "how did he know that?". I think that's the point of all entertainers.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 24, 2018, Cleverpaws wrote: One reason is that to claim to be actually doing for money/power when you know it is not true is Charlatanry and legally fraudulent in parts of this world. If any spectator arrives at the conclusion by their own wits it is not fraudulent. So, there may an ethics issue based on what one apparently demonstrates. Many feel that stating you are an entertainer solves the problem. Not sure that is true. Legally perhaps; ethically not so clear. The situation becomes muddy when an entertainer is asked to do a "real reading" or other psychic function because the observer believes they are doing the real thing. Another problem might be when it is not clear that one is an entertainer such as a teacher or spiritual adviser. Thus, having ethical concerns is normal and perhaps required. As others have said above, until you are clear on your ethical position, don't. Not saying what that position should be, just that every performer should be clear and congruent. This problem may become more critical as ir become more difficult to tell whom to trust and what to believe in our culture. Politicians have become entertainers. Preachers are marketers. etc. Magicians of all ilk have the chance to be the most truthful people around. "I am now going to demonstrate something you consider impossible" or "Since you already believe in mind reading, I am going to demonstrate conditions under which this belief is enhanced." etc. A maxim of sales training is "You never have to lie as you can create your own truths." That can work here also. How about, "I will be telling you some things that are not true but will be very believable. I will tell you truths that will be too incredible to believe. Your task is to figure out which is which - or to just sit back and bask in the wonder of it all."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 24, 2018, David Thiel wrote: I have been saying this for years...as has Richard, Bob, and most other pro mentalists. I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for many guys to understand these days. It's comical that is is not an easily understood and accepted elementary principle of mentalism. Again, seems like more magician's thinking here as being demonstrated throughout this thread. |
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Mysterious Mike Loyal user Chicago 258 Posts |
Oz Pearlman, probably one of the most successful pro mentalists is the U.S., regularly tells people when asked what a mentalist is: “Mentalism is a subsection of magic. Mentalism is a speciality in magic. If a magician was a general doctor, a mentalist would be a surgeon.” He has no problem telling people a mentalist is a magician, and yet he’s a true professional that organizations have no problem hiring. He doesn’t pretend to be the real thing. You don’t have to if you don’t want to. It is not required to be successful.
You can find dozens of videos of him saying this, but I included a link to just one of them. He says it right at the beginning of the interview. https://youtu.be/tIudN9-tfFw
The performance is what really makes it all worth while.
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Johnny250 Regular user 136 Posts |
Agree, you can read Teller's introduction to psychological subtleties That he was talking about exactly that point. One of the key phrases there is that we use our five senses to create the illusion of a sixth sense. Many great pros used this kind of sentence . even Derrn Brown also uses a sentence like this when he explains what his performance is about
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 25, 2018, Mysterious Mike wrote: I disagree with Oz. If a magician where a general doctor, a mentalist would be a general psychiatrist. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
As do I. He is a magician that tries to pass himself off as a mentalist, yet admits he's a magician. He and I have had this conversation. That is the problem with mentalism today and really the point many have made here. Oz has had a perfect platform to help position mentalism and the industry properly and he chooses to utilize magician's thinking and mentalities and remain a magician. We've seen the results of this in some of his performances where, like the Lior video and others more and more lately, he gets called out or trues desperately (harshly and rudely) to jump to cover. His foundation remains that of a magician, which is a great example to the OP of the point I and others have been trying to make. If you feel Oz is a mentalist you are fooling yourself too.
Like David, I have no problem with mental magicians, just don't (confuse audiences and) say you're a mentalist and mess it up for actual working mentalists and the industry. |
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Mysterious Mike Loyal user Chicago 258 Posts |
Okay. So you want to disagree with a top mentalist, Oz Pearlman. How about another top mentalist, Bobby Motta? When asked on TV about what is a mentalist, he replies that “Mentalists are under the umbrella of magic. They create the illusion of mind reading.” There’s that word you don’t like Mindpro: illusion. And “Magic”.
It’s about 40 seconds into this video: https://youtu.be/Np5tN1OT7dA So we have two top mentalists so far using these statements. So you really believe they are hurting the art of mentalism by using this verbage? I don’t think so. And these men are very, very credible. Their success speaks for itself. P.S. Gerry McCambridge on Mentalism: "Mentalism is the art of riding the fine line between Intuition and Illusion. How much of each I use in a particular routine is my secret!" -Gerry McCambridge
The performance is what really makes it all worth while.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 25, 2018, Mysterious Mike wrote: Exactly! (your idea of a top mentalist, but really a magician) |
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Mysterious Mike Loyal user Chicago 258 Posts |
Okay Mindpro. Then according to your thinking, Bobby Motta is not really a mentalist . Nor Gerry McCambridge, and nor... Banachek???
During an interview on TV, Banachek states “I create a lot of illusions and a lot of magic.” About 30 seconds in: https://youtu.be/Ei-2Gq0ViaU Unless you have something more compelling, I rest my case. P.S. Oz Pearlman had an article for Forbes in 2016 titled: “5 Ways Your Body Language Gives You Away: A Famed Mentalist Shares His Secrets.” That’s a pretty significant achievement for someone who’s not a “top mentalist”, wouldn’t you say? https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprin......d00541e0
The performance is what really makes it all worth while.
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Senor Fabuloso Inner circle 1243 Posts |
The idea that "no one wants to see a fake mentalist" makes no sense. Why then does anyone want to see a fake magician? The logic is not sound. If what a mentalist is first and foremost is an entertainer then it stands to reason that if he or she is entertaining they will want to see them. If people know magic is fake and come anyway then why would it be different with mentalism? The show is what matters not necessarily it's premise. Tell a good story. Connect with your audience through shared experiences. Give them a distraction from their lives and you can be as fake as you want. In the end they will believe what they want to believe anyway so as long as your true to yourself that's all that matters. For me and this is my personal choice. To look real is to lie outside the artistic license afforded me by performing art standards. It would be like an actor playing the role of a famous person so well that they tried to take over his life. Some might say that's it's OK to lie if those around you know your lying? Other might think lying is never OK? To me context is everything and if my performance (the lie) fosters a belief in something that's used to scam people I'd rather not do it. But that's me. You will have to come to your own view.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.
If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL! |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I question for the experts here ...
My visually impaired wife is playing harp&guitar and singing in a restaurant. She takes a break and several guests come to me to comment on her talent and ability to connect with the audience. I share this info with all of the patrons and suggest an experiment. I announce, "While Em has been playing I have noticed many of you humming along or gesturing with the melody -- sort of an empathic connection with her through the music." I then pass out a list of twenty well known songs with recognizable melodies. I have one person select a favorite and indicate their choice to others who wish to participate while my back is turned. I then asked that when Em returns that they are silently humm that melody in their heads - no sound. I end by saying, "It will be interesting to see the impact of all of you sending a musical message to her." Em returns and begins to retune her harp. She looks puzzled and plucks a couple of strings. Then she slowly develops into the complete song and begins singing. (good tips that night) ..... Now the question. A woman comes up to me and asks, "Is she clairvoyant, a magician or one of those mentalism people?" What should I answer?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 25, 2018, funsway wrote: whatever you want...it doesn't matter...
I've asked to be banned
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 26, 2018, IAIN wrote: Well, to me it does, and this woman and my wife. We will meet these people on other days and settings. My answer should be congruent with what I will say and do in the future. My "want" is what may not matter. I also do not desire to prejudice her thinking about the Mentalist in the next town or the Magician next door. Her perception that my wife is the one with some ability or power is intriguing. How do I build on that? I do not know, so I ask ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Then give them the most meaningful answer that works in your world view...what do you believe is going on if there's no "behind the curtain" happening?
I've asked to be banned
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Thanks for the expansion of thought, Iain.
Since none of the labels (clairvoyant, magician or mentalist) apply, I will just deal with the apparent phenomena. She can truthfully say, "That melody just came to me."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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