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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » 4 walling theatre nightmare? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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I think getting caught up in terms is pointless. I think stalking Mindpro is fairly pointless as well but that is up to you.

All I advocate is knowing what you are in for. I made HUGE mistakes when starting the process and one was trying to universalize my experience instead of listening to theirs. It was MY mistake and probably born of a wonderful combination of arrogance and stupidity. Throw in a touch of ignorance and there you go.

So my nightmares were far more self imposed than yours. Fortunately I learned.

I have had some strange restrictive contract clauses, but yours take the cake. They seem counter productive to their own needs. It really seems odd after successful uses they keep the restrictive on.

In the end if you are making money good on you.

To answer your question, NO I can defiantly not compete with those restrictions!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Keith Raygor
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I post in areas I’m passionate about, especially when I see misinformation being given as fact. Not unlike you.
Your use of a provocative word - stalking - to classify my participation in this discussion speaks more about you, and your friendship with Mindpro, than it does about me.
Dannydoyle
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No it is an observation about how you pop in to argue with Mindpro as opposed to provide actual content.

You only worry about misinformation when it involves those you don't like. Just be honest about it Keith. It is obvious to everyone it is no secret. It speaks about your dislike of Mindpro and nothing more.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cafecheckers
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I have learned a great deal in viewing this thread. First of all, it seems that all four-wall deals involve a rental, but not all rentals are four-wall deals, so there is a difference in such terminology. Mindpro explained many details as to why it is important to know and respect such differences.
-the person who oversees general rentals may be different than those who manage four-wall deals
-the agreement forms often are completely different
-the confidence theaters have in ones ability to be successful and respectful of their theater
-the income potential of the theater owner
-the staffing requirements
-first impressions and the resulting benefits of making a good one.

Sure you can start out stating you want to rent the theater and hope you are given the correct person to speak to, and then through conversation come around to some of your needs and opportunities they can look forward to, but one will get there a lot more likely and likely more quickly by using more industry specific terminology vs general terminology.
Keith Raygor
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Caféheckers, do you have personal experience in renting a theater or performance place?
TomBoleware
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Fact: ALL Theater Deals Are Rentals.

Unless you ‘purchase’ the theater, then you can call it what you want.Smile

Are there different 'Rental Agreements' of course there are, just like there are different prices.

It amazes me that could be so hard to understand.

Tom
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
Fact: ALL Theater Deals Are Rentals.

Unless you ‘purchase’ the theater, then you can call it what you want.Smile

Are there different 'Rental Agreements' of course there are, just like there are different prices.

It amazes me that could be so hard to understand.

Tom


Nothing in this post is wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2018, Keith Raygor wrote:
Caféheckers, do you have personal experience in renting a theater or performance place?


Do you? And how often?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cafecheckers
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2018, Keith Raygor wrote:
Caféheckers, do you have personal experience in renting a theater or performance place?


Yes, I have personally been directly involved with the rental of theaters for performance 4 times and 4 times as part of a group. I also intend to do so in the future, which is why this topic is of interest to me and I shared what I learned in this thread.

Back at ya, have you learned anything in this thread that you personally plan to use or share with others? Is there anything that caught your attention and caused you to rethink how you might approach such situations differently in the future, or are you all good with what Merriem-Webster and Wikipedia have to say and that is where your curiosity on this subject ends?
cafecheckers
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Merriam-Webster
Keith Raygor
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Thank you, Cafécheckers, for answering my question. I was hoping to gain some context into if you were speaking from experience, or quoting Mindpro. I re-read your post above and see that your were summarizing Mindpro's points. I appreciate your clarifications.

Quote:
On Jan 31, 2018, Cafécheckers wrote: have you learned anything in this thread that you personally plan to use or share with others?

Not yet, but part of the Café experience is about finding the nuggets among other posts. So I'll keep reading.

Considering Mindpro's first sentence in this thread. "Let's be clear, this is NOT a 4 wall deal. This is a straight rental deal", terminology became important to several people in this discussion, so defining the most basic of terms - the one in the subject title, "4-walling", was necessary. This way, everyone would be on the same page. Especially the guy with the questions. Typically it wouldn't have been necessary, since many people in our business know what it means. But it would be wrong if those that DIDN"T know what 4-walling meant, were to move forward with the wrong definition. That doesn't serve the Café's mission of magicians helping magicians.

My first post gave the correct info to the OP, provides sources, and gave a couple examples of contract details I've run across. And for context, my second post in this thread gave more details about my personal experience.

I hope that also answers the 'sharing with others' part of your question.

Quote:
On Jan 31, 2018, Cafécheckers wrote: Is there anything that caught your attention and caused you to rethink how you might approach such situations differently in the future,


No, there's not. But I don't currently have any issues to solve with regard to these things, so I didn't come here looking for answers. If I find them, wonderful, but I joined the thread for the OP.

Quote:
or are you all good with what Merriem-Webster and Wikipedia have to say and that is where your curiosity on this subject ends?

That seems just a touch snarky, so I'm going to let you rest with that. But when people aren't agreeing on words, a definition from SOMEWHERE has to be a good place to start, don't you think?
If you had a better solution, I'm open to it.
cafecheckers
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Quote:
or are you all good with what Merriem-Webster and Wikipedia have to say and that is where your curiosity on this subject ends?
That seems just a touch snarky, so I'm going to let you rest with that.

Yes it was, I apologize for that.

Regarding my personal experience, I only provided it because I was asked to do so. In no way do I believe I have meaningful experience to draw valid opinions from. I do believe in any industry there is value in being educated on the terms and how they are perceived. None of the referenced definitions of a Four Wall Deal even referenced live performances, they spoke about the motion picture industry. Mindpro offered his experiences and detailed how it has helped him differentiate himself and become a value to perspective clients. Others here have said terms don’t matter and it is what it is, meaning whatever the theater owner’s have in mind is all that matters.

Taking from both this thread and the one Walt started on negotiations, my personal choice is to become educated on the specific terms and how the industry currently perceives them, the full range of potential partnering opportunities, how to optimally approach theater owners, how to negotiate the best deals, and how to know when not to use such information.
Dannydoyle
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Keith seems to not like snark in others while not seeing it in himself.

While terms don't really matter, the affect of those "terms" on you certainly does. Being able to hold a theater owner/operator responsible for their end of the deal is VERY important. As is making certain you live up to or hopefully exceed those set for yourself.

Also as Mindpro suggests IF it is possible to show them alternative streams of income so much the better. (I only bold the if because I have never personally taken this route so am not up on the way to do so.)

The thing to avoid in reality is not knowing terms they use, and them being put off by an "out of town guy" trying to show off by showing them they don't know what they are doing. Even if this is not what you are doing it can come off that way.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Lucasw
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One final update on my rental nightmare.

Shortly before the show date, the new TD called to ask if I needed help with load in/out, I gave him the requirements I had been using for the past 3 years. When he asked management about getting additional help for load in/load out, they said they were "extremely uncomfortable with the idea of the theatre assisting in load in/out" and wanted me to get my own people. I questioned this being they had been assisting me with this for the past 3 years. Apparently, the previous TD just got help without the managements knowledge because the TD thought the rule was ridiculous. I told management I have no problem paying for the additional help, I just thought being they have a list of people who are on call, I could utilize a system they already have in place and people who are use to load in/out at the theatre. They said those people are reserved for "theatre events only". With the show date 3 days away, they did cave and helped with the load in/out, but didn't charge me anything extra, even though I was willing to pay. I guess that was the one nice thing.

After the day of the event, I realized if I returned next year, I would have to hire additional staff of my own to do jobs the theatre should be able to handle.(which they couldn't)

We're moving venues next year. As much fun as this is, I'm looking for a little more professionalism from a theatre.
thomasR
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That's very odd and totally backwards from the norm. Usually a theatre requires their own staff be hired even if you have the position covered.

How did the show / turnout go?
Lucasw
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The shows went extremely well on my end. Oddly enough, the TD did everything right during the first show, then proceeded to make numerous mistakes for the next 2 shows. FOH also managed to not secure the stage post show, which allowed someone to get up onto the stage to steal a prop. It was just a set of keys, could have been far worse, but it meant we had to run to a hardware store between shows and buy a new lock and keys.

We sold out all 3 shows in the day, with numerous people turned away. That's the reason we kept returning to the theatre (and being it was the only theatre in the area). We had created an almost turnkey operation for this event. It's just each year, we had to keep changing things being the theatre kept adopting new rules, with new surprises around every corner. It will be nice working with a professional theatre next year.
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