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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Colliemagic
Every dog is capable of being more than just a pet. My wife and I have pondered on what one might be capable of if they lived a normal human life span. Sigh! But the other restriction is on the human companion/trainer side. If you only expect a dog to do what you command and “do tricks” for your amusement, then you are defining the universe by your own limited perceptions and ego. If you want more then you have to be open to more – which often means allowing your dog to train you. Oops! Tricky ground here. You must accept that your dog is capable of independent thought, the ability to override emotion and instinct, has a sense of humor and is “willing” – all the attributes you wish for your human offspring. My retired Service Dog Limora is partially responsible for the training of my new Service Dog Jess. Who better? She suffers from some hip problems and arthritis. Current wisdom had us delay neutering Jess until his first birthday. Sorry Limora – we did not know. The reality is that she cannot chase or retrieve a Frisbee like she ‘ustacould.’ She is willing and deserves the chance. But young Jess, with springs on his feet and a chainsaw mouth, readily snatches her prize away. Worse, his exuberance might inadvertently hurt her in the contest. She can hold her own in the “big mouth” challenges and alpha behaviors, but is now slow in the “tuck and roll” antics. So, I have taken to having Jess sit by my side in a “share” modality as I toss the Frisbee to Limora to handle without interference. She often does not bring it back any more, choosing to wander a bit and then drop it for Jess’ later grab and air toss. I had assumed this was because she did not wish to risk his grabbing the Frisbee too soon, or did not want her slow walk to impede the game. Her joy over being able to catch a carefully glided Frisbee is obvious, and her eyes reflect the appreciation of my concern and caring. Like most assumptions, I was wrong. Last week, Limora started dragging the Frisbee into tall grass or behind a fence or parked vehicle. Jess had to patiently observe her actions in order to quickly claim the prize. Once he settled into the routine of “share” at my side, she began carrying the Frisbee further away and by more convoluted paths. She had invented a game of ‘treasure hunt’ with trust that I would prove the ‘patience’ part. Quickly, Jess forgot his quivering reluctance to the ‘sit’ to one of keen attention to what Limora was doing. Then the magic began to happen. She remembered all of the spots where she had previously hidden the Frisbee and would pretend to return to one, change her mind, and visit some others. She developed a way of tucking her head so that the Frisbee was not visible. At first Jess had explored these sites as a pattern, but then became more attentive and able to go directly to the final spot. Then came yesterday. She caught the Frisbee on the open gravel path, then dropped it and looked at both of us. If she walked away I would have released Jess for the grab. No – Limora picked it back up knowing she had our full attention. I called out, “Hide it well,” but Limora was in charge. She wandered behind a parked truck and onto a likely spot with tall grass. Finally, she went to a favored area between the pump house and fence where she had hidden the Frisbee twice before. After nuzzling in the grass, she came towards us with open mouth and happy thoughts to sit and wait for Jess. I whisped, “Go,” and he was off – over a low fence, around the wheelbarrow and directly to the observed treasure location. Ahha! No Frisbee! After a furtive search, Jess when to Limora to she if she still had the prize. I am sure she was chuckling but I was too far away to hear. Next, Jess retraced her path to eventually find the errant Frisbee beneath the truck. Limora had faked the two later apparent hides and both I and Jess had been taken in. She had established a pattern of expectation, insured our attention and then led us both “down the garden bath” as adeptly as any stage conjuror. Just a game? Part of a larger training agenda on Limora’s part? What I do know is that Jess took the Frisbee to Limora rather than to me, and they lay together to munch on clover. ... so, if a Collie can employ misdirection, palming, timing and false anticipation -- why do so many magicians resort to just "doing tricks?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Maybe in the end if some enjoy "just doing tricks". It is not up to anyone to judge or change them.
Each person has what brings them to the art and what brings them joy. They should be able to practice this art in the way they see fit in their own way no matter who else likes it. Otherwise we are all the same.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
True Danny, but if the general populous is trained to expect only tricks, why should one strive for something more?
Why is "performer joy" the standard to be followed? The theme should be "performance magic" and not "finding joy." I question that a performance of "trick" with no communication of personal emotion is art. Yes, each practices at something -- sometimes skill demonstration, ego enhancement, power or manipulation. But, is it magic? Probably yes, since the bar has been lowered so far, Buy a new cleaning product or face cream. Why practice the art of astonishment and beguile? Not judgement or attempt to change on my part. Just a suggestion that for those who want something more/different it may be easier than they have imagined. food for thought - that is what this thread is for.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Aren't you the one always saying nobody can tell you what is and is not magic or a magic show? People have their own preference.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Yup. That's why I offer a different perspective to choose from. They might prefer this one.
as to the OP - do you find what this Collie did to be magic or magical? Do the steps taken to create the final effect resemble what a magician does? Did she do this magic effect to entertain me, or to provide a lesson to Jess?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It was a dog being a dog. Don't put human charectoristics on it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
The point is that doing magic is not a human characteristic. No one trained my dog to do such things.
So, I guess you did not find her performance to be magic. One vote in. Anyone else? I also shared this story on a dog owner's site. More than 20 responders though the performance to be magic. But, they are spectators and not magicians. Why should their opinion matter?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I've been a dog trainer for 30 years. I do not find putting human charectoristics into dogs useful.
If you and others find magic in her performance then it is. Nobody can or should try to tell you different. Just don't be disappointed when others don't agree is all. And you tell the story on a site with dog owners who are so passionate about it that they join a web site. Is that what you think of as a random sample of some sort? Come on you have to see the bias at least. Finding inspiration for magic happens anywhere. It is different for everyone and you found it there. But that does not in any way mean a dog being a dog is magic for everyone.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Well, Danny, then people joining a magic website can hardly be considered a random sample either. So, I post to see how many see magic.
You start off stating a person should not judge others. Now you judge that I am putting human characteristics on a dogs, actions. Please be consistent. You apparently have an opinion that magic or the appreciation of same is a human characteristic. No evidence - just an opinion. I have an opinion that some members of the Café may find magic in places you not, and do not subscribe to your limited view of either magic or dogs. But, now I am intrigued. Exactly what characteristic that you opine to be human was I "putting on a my dogs?" Even allowing that you mean that I observed actions in dogs and apply scientific or common labels to them -- what characteristics are you talking about? perhaps your "charectoristics" spelling has some unique meaning. And I never said that a dog being a dog is magic. You are arguing with your own statements. Please don't project, or limit my words to your interpretation. I suggest that actions are magic regardless of the performer., and offer this story as evidence that a dog can deliberately do a magic effect without coaching. My dog can -- sorry that yours cannot. as to magic, are you saying that only humans can recognize and appreciate awe & wonder, or mystery or be astonished? I can suggest a few book on neurobiology you might read.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Now you of all people are going to nit pick spelling? I will hold you to a 100% standard from now on. How about we start with when to use capital letters?
Stop your nonsense ok? This happens when you get shown your nonsense every time. Show me where dogs, or anyone but humans have a concept of magic. Then we can go from there. You putting the idea of magic or whatever bs you are trying to bloviate about into a dogs mind is ludicrous. And by the way this is what you opined. "so, if a Collie can employ misdirection, palming, timing and false anticipation -- why do so many magicians resort to just "doing tricks?" All of which are human constructs you put into a dog. You defined those things and you claimed a dog did them. Them you add your statement which is judgemental just for good measure. You seem so desperate to be taken seriously but want to do things like that. Many perhaps enjoy just doing tricks. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with you finding magic in watching a dog. But that does not mean they are doing magic. And you have absolutely no proof they are. And by the way any dog doing what it was born to do is magic in my eyes. Watching a working dog do their job is a wonderful experience. I have watched German Shepherd dogs "heard" the kids. It was an incredible experience. Retrievers running to the target and all working dogs working is magic to my eyes. A dog being a dog is magic yes. So we disagree on that. I don't think animals need human traits and constructs to be magical. Out of pure curiosity you always want to talk neurobiology. What is your training in the fiel? Is that what your university degree is in?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
You, of course, have no proof they are not doing magic.
you cry, "Show me where dogs, or anyone but humans have a concept of magic." That is what my story is and does -- shows you that she did. Sorry it isn't magic for you. It is for others. Great world this ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Use capital letters please.
You are the one making assertions, it is up to you to prove them. Not up to me to disprove them. For example you can not prove a giant racoon didn't fart to to cause the big bang. Therefore since you can't disprove it then it must be simply because some see it that way. Wonderful world this... Your story did not come close to showing dogs have a concept of magic. You claiming it did does not make it so. Just like my racoon example.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Silly guy. I never made any assertion. I offered a story as "food for thought" and asked if others thought it was magic.
Some readers have said they did. You, Danny, are the only one who has said it is not. Strange! I will assert that I personally think it is magic, and that my dog did it on purpose. No proof required -- it is an opinion. Neither positive or negative - just, food for thought. You then did make several assertions and I asked for proof - none offered. So, I treat them as opinions. All performance magic is based on perceptions rather than proved things, no? (opinion - no proof required either) I continue to post in the belief that other readers on the Café might enjoy "food for thought." But, I thank you for the energy you have put into this. Even negative energy can be turned to productive ends.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
Quote:
On May 7, 2018, funsway wrote: Actually, the only posters in this thread seem to be you and Danny. Where are the readers who have said they think it was magic? I think dogs are absolutely delightful, but I do not think that they do magic. Perhaps they are magic in the same was as mayonnaise is: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0 |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On May 7, 2018, 0pus wrote: Yea I should have known going down the rabbit hole was pointless. You can't use logic to get someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get into in the first place. Now he will follow up with his only retort, "I know your are but what am I?"
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
"...Silly guy. I never made any assertion. I offered a story as "food for thought" and asked if others thought it was magic."
So you weren't asserting: "so, if a Collie can employ misdirection, palming, timing and false anticipation -- why do so many magicians resort to just "doing tricks?" If the above is not an assertion, what the heck is it? Also, how do you know that any magicians at all resort to just doing tricks? I grant that IF you set up a definition of what "doing magic" may or may not be and then "assert" that that guy over there does not measure up....well, that's arbitrary. I actually believe that any routine that uses emotion to sell it as somehow "magic" and not a "trick" is in fact the reverse. A routine that provokes anything but surprise at the end is not really a magic routine, but a playlet or something. But, then maybe I'm wrong.
Brad Burt
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I always respect your thoughts and input, Brad, but a question is never an assertion.
and I said, "So many" -- which is an arbitrary view, but does not include "All" or even "most." I mistakenly thought everyone would understand that I was suggesting "food for thought" for those to whom this might apply. Yes, I feel that many presentations today are not magic and not art. An opinion. For those that do not feel that Limora demonstrated misdirect, false anticipation, etc., then the question is moot. That is what the "if" is for. .... for me, if there is no transfer of emotion there is no art. So, you might be right that success as entertainer depends on surprise. But then why pretend it is an art form or even magic? Yes, any spectator might choose to fine either magic or art in a presentation. What is the intent of the performer? Some famous magicians of yesteryear offered that confusion, puzzle and mystery is not magic. Does this include "surprise" alone? Magic may require surprise, but just because something engenders surprise doe snot make it magic. My dog certainly created surprise even if one does not see magic in it. So, I might gather that you do feel Limora performed a magic effect. Surprise, entertaining, mysterious, extraordinary. By the way, is your Web-store still active? I referred a person and they could not find it.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Please use capital letters correctly since you are the spelling moderator.
By the way you asserted you were SURE she was chuckling but you were too far away to hear. That is both an assertion and giving the dogs human traits. Silly boy if your goal is to have magic effects no more entertaining than a couple of dogs with a stick then cool.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
"Stick" here did come from? First you don't think it is magic. Now you don't think it is entertaining.
I find your comments here entertaining, so why not magic wherever it occurs? So, you finally offer an indication of what human trait you were talking about, "Chuckling?" A human trait? Besides, I did not give the dog anything. You may decide that the laughter animals exhibit is not "chuckling" but it is all their own. All of our dogs make interesting sounds when they find something amusing - different for other emotion related sounds. With all of your dog training experience, what do you call these humor based sounds besides chuckling? Or, don't your trained dogs find humor in anything? I have now shared this story with many folks other than dog owners and magicians. Not all apply the term "magic" since I did not mention it, but "extraordinary" and "fantastic" were common. No on questioned the veracity of what I told or mentioned grammar or made any personal attack. Not one of the eleven responders suggested that was impossible for a dog to do, or used the term "human trait." So far, Danny, you stand alone in the "dogs doing dog things" camp. Thanks for the compliment, though. It is great to be able to find joy, mystery, humor and magic in this complex world. I share these experiences whenever I can. Would you like other dog stories? I have several original ones -- mostly about Service Dogs, though.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
How did your dog communicate to you that they found it humorous? Humor is a human construct that a dog would not comprehend. You are projecting plain and simple.
Also in another ridiculous thread you want to point out books on neurobiology. I asked what your background in that is and you avoided answering. Do you have university level training in neurobiology? No problem if you don't I'm just curious. Oh and before you go too far down your victim road YOU were the one who started the attacks about spelling. All I have chosen to do is hold you to your own standard. If life is just such a mystery to you that you find magimagic all around then good for you. Personally I find life fulfilling enough to not have to give dogs human traits. They are just great being dogs. They are fascinating enough just being what they are. No need to humanize them by claiming they do magic of some sort. You still have not shown where dogs have a concept of magic. But that is not shocking. You just want people to accept it because you have said it. I have hundreds of dog stories. All incredible. None involve me thinking they are anything but a dog. Because guess what? They are not anything but a dog. Sorry but they are not humans with the concept of magic or humor. It ridiculous to suggest such a thing. Dogs can be happy or sad. These emotions do exist in dogs. I have seen dogs so attached to other dogs that the death of one has them acting differently. Dogs express happiness for certain expected activity. But humor? Doing magic tricks for another dog? Not even close. And if you want to know what that behavior is in a dog I can tell you. Many dogs bury bones. It is a possessive behavior that if you do not correct can lead to conflict between dogs. But reality is not high on your list. You want to pretend it has to do with a stage magician. It is dog behavior that goes back eons and is not about humor, it is about survival. They used to have to hide and bury food. It was a survival mechanism. So doing this has nothing to do with humor on their part. It is YOU putting that on them. But why let a fact get in the way of a silly story?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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