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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Should the federal minimum wage be $15 hourly? (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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On Nov 11, 2018, landmark wrote:
Not going to play that game.

It's been answered many times above. You only ask it to deny that workers needs' are at least as worthy of respect as owners' needs.

What do you think an Owners' compensation SHOULD be and why?

See, it's a two-way street, not one way.


I can answer that easily. An owner should keep all his profits. Obviously. They don't get to "should" the world. They made the investment and they are entitled to that in America. It is an easy question. I'm happy for the two way street.

Now since it is a two way street you answer.

And no I do not believe a worker's PERSONAL needs are part of the equation. To take care of those is on them, not their boss. Get two jobs. Get better trained and so forth. It is not the function of a business to meet personal needs of the workers.

So now I've answered. Your turn. I don't see this as a game at all. You want to change things then cool just tell us how much minimum wage should be and why.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Intrepid
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On Nov 11, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Who was the President of Venezuela before Chavez? What was the literacy and poverty rate then?


"Its schools lie half deserted. The health system has been devastated by decades of underinvestment, corruption, and neglect; long-vanquished diseases, such as malaria and measles, have returned. Only a tiny elite can afford enough to eat. An epidemic of violence has made it one of the most murderous countries in the world. It is the source of Latin America’s largest refugee migration in a generation, with millions of citizens fleeing in the last few years alone. Hardly anyone (aside from other autocratic governments) recognizes its sham elections, and the small portion of the media not under direct state control still follows the official line for fear of reprisals. By the end of 2018, its economy will have shrunk by about half in the last five years."

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/......-suicide
Bob
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Quote:
On Nov 11, 2018, Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 11, 2018, landmark wrote:
Who was the President of Venezuela before Chavez? What was the literacy and poverty rate then?

Washington Post:
"This collapsing socialist state is suffering one of the most dramatic outflows of human talent in modern history, with Aquiles Nazoa offering a glimpse into what happens when a nation begins to empty out. Vast gaps in Venezuela’s labor market are causing a breakdown in daily life, and robbing this nation of its future. The exodus is broad and deep — an outflow of doctors, engineers, oil workers, bus drivers and electricians. And teachers."

"The value of local salaries is falling by the day. In the middle of 2017, an average teacher’s salary was worth nearly $45. Today, it’s worth about $8.
“If we continue like this, Venezuela won’t even be a Third World country anymore,” said Flores, the school principal."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the......1c1837fc

About 7% of the population has fled the country in the last few years.

"The exodus is the consequence of severe economic deprivation and mounting desperation among Venezuelans. The country’s economy has shrunk by half in just five years, and inflation is nearing a staggering 1 million percent. Shortages of food and medicine have led to a crisis in public health, with once-vanquished diseases such as diphtheria and measles returning and the rate of infant mortality rising sharply. U.N. officials claim that some 1.3 million Venezuelans who left the country were “suffering from malnourishment.”

"Over the past week, Maduro’s government has tried to address the economic meltdown by devaluing the bolivar, Venezuelan’s currency, by some 90 percent and tethering it to a new, invented cryptocurrency called the petro. It didn’t seem to help. “With economists saying the new economic measures could make a bad situation even worse, people rushed to supermarkets and gasoline stations to stock up on necessities, while some business owners considered closing for good,” my colleagues Rachelle Krygier and Anthony Faiola reported."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/201......c0c44a6c


"In today's Venezuela, where hyperinflation has devalued currency so much that going to work for a teacher can cost more than the job brings in"

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-......link=cpy
Bob
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"Centrally Planned Economy:
A centrally planned economy is an economic system in which the state or government makes economic decisions rather than these being made by the interaction between consumers and businesses. Unlike a market economy — in which private citizens and business owners make production decisions — a centrally planned economy controls what is produced and the distribution and use of resources. State-owned enterprises undertake the production of goods and services."
Bob
landmark
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It is not the function of a business to meet personal needs of the workers.


As if the survival and standard of living of the majority of Americans was just a "personal" need.

And why should it be the role of the employer to get to meet all his or her "personal" needs?

Because of the myth that the employer is taking all the risk? Really? How many mine owners died in the mines? How many real estate owners fell off buildings? How many factory owners had their limbs mangled by machinery? And all for what?--the "personal" needs of the Owner.

Working people take the risk every day--the risk that they may be fired, the risk that they may lose their health insurance, the risk that they won't be able to pay tomorrow's rent.

A system that only takes care of 1% of its people is a failed, failed system.

Fortunately, it is not a system that was handed down in stone like the Ten Commandments--or even the Constitution. We can do much better.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



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landmark
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2018, Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 11, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Who was the President of Venezuela before Chavez? What was the literacy and poverty rate then?


"Its schools lie half deserted. The health system has been devastated by decades of underinvestment, corruption, and neglect; long-vanquished diseases, such as malaria and measles, have returned. Only a tiny elite can afford enough to eat. An epidemic of violence has made it one of the most murderous countries in the world. It is the source of Latin America’s largest refugee migration in a generation, with millions of citizens fleeing in the last few years alone. Hardly anyone (aside from other autocratic governments) recognizes its sham elections, and the small portion of the media not under direct state control still follows the official line for fear of reprisals. By the end of 2018, its economy will have shrunk by about half in the last five years."

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/......-suicide


Quote:
Quote:

Who was the President of Venezuela before Chavez? What was the literacy and poverty rate then?


It's extraordinary that you have no interest in answering this question. Nor in doing any investigation whatsoever for yourself of the intense economic and covert warfare the US and the IMF have been waging against Venezuela for the last two decades.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 11, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
It is not the function of a business to meet personal needs of the workers.


As if the survival and standard of living of the majority of Americans was just a "personal" need.

And why should it be the role of the employer to get to meet all his or her "personal" needs?

Because of the myth that the employer is taking all the risk? Really? How many mine owners died in the mines? How many real estate owners fell off buildings? How many factory owners had their limbs mangled by machinery? And all for what?--the "personal" needs of the Owner.

Working people take the risk every day--the risk that they may be fired, the risk that they may lose their health insurance, the risk that they won't be able to pay tomorrow's rent.

A system that only takes care of 1% of its people is a failed, failed system.

Fortunately, it is not a system that was handed down in stone like the Ten Commandments--or even the Constitution. We can do much better.

As you stated above it is extraordinary you have no in nearest in answering my very simple question. Irony much?

Right. So now who is playing a game?

You want to espouse Marxist propaganda then own up to it please. At least be honest about your position.

What should the minimum wage be and why? Forget all your talking points and answer a simple question. We know you hate the rich and corruptions. We know you want huge government. We get all that already.

But see a business exists when an owner has a vision. Maybe you never owned one so this is the problem. BUT the huge number off them are a HUGE risk to the owner. (Please stop the 1% b.s. for us. Class warfare is not working any more. Saul Alinsky tactics simply don't pay off much any more,) When you own something you should benefit from that. It is not about taking from some to make all equal. THAT system has failed every time it has been tried.

It is the roll of the employer to be in charge. That is the deal. As much as it pains you government does not own all business. So the owners needs are met. Since they own the company. You don't like it? Don't work for them. It is really simple.

Now without any more propaganda please just tell me what the minimum wage needs to be and why. No stories about miners or sob stories about families with lots of kids and medical bills. Just give what you believe a fair number is and a reason why. I doubt you will.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RNK
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"It is the roll of the employer to be in charge. That is the deal. As much as it pains you government does not own all business. So the owners needs are met. Since they own the company. You don't like it? Don't work for them. It is really simple. "

Exactly Danny. America is a free country, (Landmark) start your own business then I would like to see what you would have to say. Or as Danny said, work somewhere else. It very simple since we are a country where opportunity is available for anyone who wants it and wants to "WORK" for it.
landmark
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Quote:
So the owners needs are met. Since they own the company.


Good, so we're getting a little bit closer to the truth--under the present system the personal needs that are being met are the Owners' needs, not the Workers' needs.

Quote:
You don't like it? Don't work for them. It is really simple.


No, not simple when the system is set up so that most people must work for others in order to survive, while others--yes, the 1%--get all of their personal needs met. Most civilized folks for the last few centuries have agreed--in rhetoric at least--that the idea of Royalty, the idea of a special class which gets their personal needs met while the rest struggle to meet the basic needs of life, is something that should have gone out with the French Revolution.

So your question again about the exact dollar amount of the minimum wage--I see you want to know if I have I stopped beating my wife, yes or no.

Until businesses are owned, operated, and run collectively, the minimum wage should be--as has been stated many times before in this thread--an amount that allows a worker to live a sustainable life. As has been pointed out above, again many times, the poverty line calculations exist, as do calculations that are some multiple of that.

Yes, you can throw in the tired red herring that localities differ as to their standards of living. Anyone who is actually interested in helping people would know that can be dealt with in many ways, rather than use it as an excuse to do nothing.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Jonathan Townsend
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On Nov 12, 2018, landmark wrote:
...No, not simple when the system is set up so that most people...

So, what are you doing to establish and alternative that folks might find appealing?

And in the mean time are you propagating "the system"? Indoctrinating others into "the system"?

Getting back to the OP and his valid question - if the minimum wage goes up - I'm guessing prices would go up as well.
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landmark
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On Nov 12, 2018, RNK wrote:
"It is the roll of the employer to be in charge. That is the deal. As much as it pains you government does not own all business. So the owners needs are met. Since they own the company. You don't like it? Don't work for them. It is really simple. "

Exactly Danny. America is a free country, (Landmark) start your own business then I would like to see what you would have to say. Or as Danny said, work somewhere else. It very simple since we are a country where opportunity is available for anyone who wants it and wants to "WORK" for it.


I've looked and looked, RNK. Where does it say in the Constitution that it is the role of the employer to be in charge? In fact, part of the point of the American Revolution was that some didn't believe in an aristocracy where some were treated better than others.

Speaking of "Working for it" I'm waiting for you to decry all the bums and freeloaders, the shirkers who make their money without lifting a finger or breaking a sweat. But no, instead you *support* them, voting for politicians who give these malingerers capital gains tax breaks for their unearned income.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Jonathan Townsend
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On Nov 12, 2018, landmark wrote:
... In fact, part of the point of the American Revolution was that some didn't believe in an aristocracy where some were treated better than others.

Not sure about that landmark. Which revolution was that? We hold these truths to be self evident, so get to the back of the bus and go back to your owner and master, Mister Douglas.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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On Nov 12, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 12, 2018, landmark wrote:
...No, not simple when the system is set up so that most people...


So, what are you doing to establish and alternative that folks might find appealing?


I'm satisfied with what I am doing at this point in my life. Are you?

Quote:
And in the mean time are you propagating "the system"? Indoctrinating others into "the system"?


One of the fundamental features of Capitalism as Gramsci and others have pointed out is its ability to reproduce and transform itself while maintaining its unequal class structure intact. One cannot be a member of a capitalist society and not in some respects help to reproduce it. Given that, I do the best I can. See above.

Quote:
Getting back to the OP and his valid question - if the minimum wage goes up - I'm guessing prices would go up as well.


Yes, prices may go up, for a while anyway. Then some capitalist will undercut those who raised their prices and lower his or hers, and prices will come down again, albeit probably at a somewhat higher level than the pre-wage increase. The relevant question is whether workers will have decreased buying power because of that. Empirically, the answer is that increased minimum wage increases buying power. I have never seen a labor movement demand that the minimum wage be lowered or abolished in order to increase their buying power and standard of living. No one is marching in the street on that. The pressure to abolish minimum wage laws comes from the Owner class.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
landmark
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 12, 2018, landmark wrote:
... In fact, part of the point of the American Revolution was that some didn't believe in an aristocracy where some were treated better than others.

Not sure about that landmark. Which revolution was that? We hold these truths to be self evident, so get to the back of the bus and go back to your owner and master, Mister Douglas.


Oh yes, we agree on that, John. I'm talking about rhetoric. But yes the capitalists were still wrangling about their "property rights" as they compromised with 3/5 ths.
"I use my five illusions to create the sense I'm useful to six."



You can read my daily blog at Musings, Memories, and Magic
Intrepid
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On Nov 9, 2018, funsway wrote:
The answer is for the individual to make themselves worth more - not to expect more for doing less.
Bob
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It's already been established that more worth of an employee DOESN'T necessarily equal higher wages. The job market and unemployment rate, as well as many other factors, will affect what employers are willing to pay.
To hate those who hate is righteous.
Intrepid
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On Nov 13, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
It's already been established that more worth of an employee DOESN'T necessarily equal higher wages. The job market and unemployment rate, as well as many other factors, will affect what employers are willing to pay.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, except death and taxes. And life is a constant struggle of ups and down. But those that try have a better shot than those that don't. These are words I know you don't like, and I apologize for that. Feel free to dismis this comment as you please.
Bob
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On Nov 13, 2018, Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 13, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
It's already been established that more worth of an employee DOESN'T necessarily equal higher wages. The job market and unemployment rate, as well as many other factors, will affect what employers are willing to pay.

Nothing in life is guaranteed, except death and taxes. And life is a constant struggle of ups and down. But those that try have a better shot than those that don't.


I can show you ways to not pay taxes but I do agree, that trying to change ones station in life through education and personal growth is a positive and worthwhile goal. I will also concede, that good character, education and a positive attitude SHOULD equal more success in life but often doesn't.

Come to think of it, I can show you how to avoid death also.
To hate those who hate is righteous.
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