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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Shall we try and address the not so shy elephant in the room then?
I'll kick it off... When I first put stuff out, it had gone through people like Bob C. Richard Webster, Greg Arce, and then my friends...they were my sense checkers and advice givers...if you think what I've put out is dull or cr*p, well! you should the stuff I didn't release! right, so... the world is moving faster and faster more and more people re-invent the wheel because though there's more of us, we are less connected in many ways - bricks and mortar, groups, face to face time, performing socially vs professionally and more it feels natural to share with your friends, right? it is... i've certainly given stuff to friends, and they have started threads genuinely without me knowing however, I have bumped them deliberately at times with codes and thanks and so on but I try to temper that with moaning and complaining about things, people and sometimes try to be helpful doesn't always work for sure it feels like...hmmmm….you have this thing of yours that you want to share, you're excited, you're making some moolah (however big or small), and you might even feel as though you are "giving back" too... you are also slightly fearful that if you don't put it out there, someone else will (re)invent it and suddenly be known for it, with you at the sidelines saying "but I did it five years ago!" however, as we have progressed, more and more groups of people have formed their own review shows (I don't understand why I should listen to their opinion as they never explain who they are or why they are worth listening to and are often sponsored by magic sites), or they PM creators and ask for a free copy to review here (I got asked via PM this year and last, by different people for exactly that and refused). Then there's the usual suspects who release something, then these little faces appear writing aeolistic praise for the work, everyone is everyone's brother and on and on it goes...the faces sometimes change, but the song remains the same... never one constructive criticism amongst it all...which is weird...because real friends should tell you when you're being a d1ckhead shouldn't they... latest and greatest is a hive of ego and sniping amongst the regulars - I've been joining in more of late too, its a strange section of the café and I urge you to ignore it! but its like watching a strange kind of soap opera unfold, but always with the same plot and characters... anyway - that's my POV, what's yours?
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I'll add this...
how I get stuff reviewed for the past few years, I'll got to a big "name", see if they like it, and if they'll give a quote - if they do, I come on here and do it, more often than not downstairs in inner thoughts... or, if I've got something I'm about to put out, I'll use downstairs and describe it, see if there's any interest... I bear all that in mind as to whether to go for it or not... then after a release, if I'm lucky enough to get a message somewhere from someone saying they enjoyed it, will use it etc, I sometimes ask "would you mind leaving a review please? as honest as you can be" - with the caveat they get nothing for it apart from a thank you...and I don't send them anything next time... if you don't have a site, don't have a hype-man, and don't want to form a clique of back scratchers - you're sat on somewhere like lulu or a magic site for a day or two, and then you disappear - in the vague hope that someone searches for something you've added in keywords.. I think it feels better if you hype it yourself (but I guess I'm biased) - and you only have to watch a penguin or Alakazam lecture to see that even amongst the oft-mentioned classics, there's still plenty that gets overlooked...so what chance do us plebs have?
I've asked to be banned
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
This is exactly why I don't release products to the community as a whole. They have to apply, be approved and accepted before they are even allowed to purchase. On one hand, you must be thick-skinned to even try to release your works and put yourself in a position to have to deal with all the online opininators and trolls. The friends thing I have never got either. I have never shared a single release of mine with any friends or family, so whatever feedback you hear is 100% genuine.
I never really understood getting the approval of Cassidy, Osterlind or others, especially the younger guys with limited experience. Sure their endorsement can have limited benefits but it really says little about your work, just their thoughts on it from their perspective. It likely a self-fulfilling thing, but only offers limited credibility at best. I agree with Latest and Greatest, but this is a bigger problem with so many online experts who really know nothing and only offer opinions (again based on limited knowledge). Much of this is related to magician's thinking and mentalities, which now is dominating the mentalism forums. As Cassidy said often, the trivialization of mentalism continues and nowhere is that seen greater than here. This too is likley part of your grief and frustration. Sad really. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
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On Oct 6, 2018, Mindpro wrote: well, here's why I send it to guys like that... they are the "superstars" of our field I guess, they are going to be knowledgeable, know what works, what doesn't, if its close to something else - its a way to sense-check your work up against someone who you rate...it would be like playing a riff to rory Gallagher and then saying "so...what d'ya reckon on that?" so the benefit was never a financial thing, more that you are hoping for honest and helpful feedback - and is hopefully more meaningful than perhaps a purchaser who has never performed anything at all, but liked what you put out... that's my take on it...
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
I actually think the WHEEL is one - if not the only - invention that has NOT ever been reinvented or improved.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Improved or stream-lined = great
reinvented but claimed as new = bad
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TheGingerWizard Special user 733 Posts |
“The guy who invented the first wheel was an idiot. The guy who invented the other three, he was a genius”
Sid Caeser |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1874 Posts |
" And I think to myself....what a wonderful world."
It's really no different here than in many other professions or hobbies. And certainly not anything new. This has been going on for time immemorial and it will continue to do so. Everyone has an opinion on this or that. Some are informed. Others aren't. Whatever. So at the end of the day, I suppose it's just a matter of what side of the bed you woke up on that day and which things you choose to engage or ignore. Does it even matter? is a question I find myself having to ask all the time now. And let's be blunt: There's no elephant and never has been. Your guitar analogy works. It also works like this: You're in your 20's. You play a whole show. Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly and Paul Gibson come up afterwards and tell you "Man son, that was hot ***! You got it kid." Fast forward 20 + years. They are no longer around and you're still at it and have progressed by leaps and bounds since then. Sure, maybe you've crawled into the bottom of a bottle by this point. Or maybe substances. Maybe both. Maybe you've squandered opportunities. You're definitely not as shiny as you once were. But the music's still there inside you, burning fiercely away and there's no need for an "authority" at this point. You do as you wish and your music's never sounded better. Some call that arrogance. Some call it ego. Some call it confidence in one's abilities. Some call it..whatever, whatever, whatever. I call it life. Either way, it's all just labels and you've not ever walked a day in their shoes. Does it really matter? How's the soil in your garden? That's my POV. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
But what if you think all your own music is amazing and highly original - and cos those guys aren't around anymore... Who is going to tell you the music sounds too much like Al green, booker T and Cream?
Would make for an amazing band though, eh!
I've asked to be banned
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1874 Posts |
Sometimes the critic just doesn't understand some things as deeply as he thinks he does. And let's assume for a moment that our "Musician" friend were playing cover songs. Assume being the key word here. What if his cover song was better than the original? More technical proficiency. More feel. More fuidity. More artistic embellishments and all sorts of little things that casual listeners might miss, and yet it is better. Not saying that's the case here, but what if, eh?
Here's a quote directly from Nick Trost. If you want to open that door, I can show you case after case to prove this very point with just his work alone, let alone with the works of many others. Many of the tricks in Subtle Card Creations are either original with me or a variation of an old effect. I have tried to add something special to every trick in the book-a novel application, better handling, a surprise ending, and so on. Most of the tricks require little or no sleight of hand. They are based primarily on clever principles, procedures and subtleties. My goal has been to get the maximum effect with a minimum of effort. My approach in inventing new tricks has been to start with a method and work forward to an effect, not the other way around. The idea of first looking at a principle or procedure, and using it in conjunction with other principles can eventually lead to an effect. Then ironing out the handling and developing the presentation produces a new piece of magic. Walt Lees in his "Iconoclasms 4" in Pabular, November 1979, proposes the same approach to inventing new tricks. So did Stewart James. And so and so forth. I do the very same thing in my own work and this is more than obvious to anyone who has followed much of what I've released so far. This is why I spent so much time and effort in the Skeletons from the Closet series illustrating my creative process and thoughts in a meticulous fashion - for this very reason. I wanted people to understand those very small nuances and why they mattered and are important. I still have a wealth of material going back well over 20 years now that I haven't even begun to get to yet. If you like, I can show you time and time again, effects where Trost lists 7, 8, even 9 different effects that he has taken little "bits and pieces" from to construct one new effect with said pieces. This is not a new phenomenon in our art. But very often, little (but significant!) details that push something forward are lost on those that don't have an eye for such things and can't appreciate subtle differences. What is most amusing, is when those that accuse others of this are completely blind to when they themselves are doing that very thing as well. Periodicals are literally filled with new twists on things that were submitted even just a few issues earlier! This is how things progress in this art. Those that can't see or understand this are either ignorant (willfully or not) or are just using it to serve some deeper political agenda. Now, I'm not suggesting that this may be the case with you Iain, but the fact of the matter, is that magic history demonstrates this time and time again. Since I am enjoying your analogy, let me go a step further. What if our artist friend really has lost his mind at some point and become completely delusional? Stranger things have indeed happened. But let's suppose that this is actually the case for sake of conversation. If he is, in fact, delusional and not hurting anyone, why bother or harass him if he's clearly already struggling with his own mind? What is going on in your own garden? Don't you have your own flowers to attend to? At any rate, I happen to know (and so do many professionals), that our musician friend is not delusional. Troubled mind, yes. Delusional, no. And one last thing. What if our musician friend has not EVER studied the works of Lennart Green or even watched him for say, longer than 5 mins and couldn't perform a single Lennart Green routine or effect for this very reason? It certainly proves that those who said he was performing Lennart Green material (and imitating him as well) are actually not as informed and educated as they believe they are, wouldn't it? I happen to know that the piece was a Harry Lorayne composition derived from an earlier Marlo melody. I'm also quite certain that our musician friend would be more than happy to flawlessly play this exquisite song for you as many times as you like, and in front of 'experts' who know these things and would indeed point out that you were in fact, completely wrong and ill-informed. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1874 Posts |
I really didn't think I was going to have to do so much writing today....
Iain, you wrote last week about the "tortured artist" as myth in that thread that was deleted. Initially, I agreed with you. But after thinking a good while about the subject, I can't really say that I agree at all any more. Why? Because the thrust of your point was that an artist is talented because they are talented in spite of any mental illness they might have and that it is not the illness that defines their work. Initially I agreed because I know what it's like to be defined by an illness in general. It stinks. It's hard enough that it's something that you have to deal with on your own, and even worse when others are defining you by it. So my initial reaction was "Yeah, I hate being defined by my illness!" But then I really started thinking about the deeper implications of this notion... So you're going to tell me that Robin Williams would have had the exact same dramatic effect on the world that he did even if he hadn't struggled with manic depression (bi-polar disorder) his entire life? No way. Robin was one of the most passionate, dedicated, and heart-warming performers who has ever graced this earth. I remember reading and seeing the things he was struggling with and going through throughout the years when he was living and being able to understand some of that - especially all the trouble he had with severe addiction, which was the exact same stimulant I had issues with as well. And there's reasons for that very drug of choice among people with this mental health issue - but that's beyond what I'm trying to get across here. Yes, he was naturally talented. But not for one second can you possibly think that his struggle and illness didn't have a profound effect on his performances, vision, and heart. It just wouldn't be the same. The man loved to make people laugh because he was feeling so much pain inside - and look what happened in the end. I remember on the day he passed, feeling an overwhelming and immense amount of grief for a man I hadn't even ever met. And I also remember, thinking how the one good thing that may come out from all of it, was that it would highlight to the world that this is a serious illness and that people shouldn't be so dismissive of those who struggle with it by saying stupid things like "Oh, get over it. You don't have to be depressed" and other assorted nonsense. Bottom line, Robin Williams' struggle played a huge role in his work as a theatrical and comedic artist and I believe he wouldn't have had the same impact otherwise. I apologize for the lengthy write-up here - honestly, there's far better things I'd like to be doing at the moment, but since the door's opened and I feel this is an important issue, let me quickly illustrate another example. Back in the early 90's, I used to frequent this bohemian Café which was practically a second home for both myself and numerous other assorted artist types. I'd love to describe the atmosphere in greater detail (as it was a truly one-of-a-kind place and I have some amazing stories), but this isn't the time or space. Anyhow, there was a fellow there named Chris whom I'd gradually gotten to know through acoustic guitar jam sessions. When I first started hanging out with Chris, I recognized immediately that something was off with him, and so, I asked what it was. He informed that he had sever Schizophrenia but was on meds which allowed him to be 'alright' for the most part. But every now and then, in the middle of complete silence even, Chris might suddenly become convinced that either you or somebody sitting at a nearby table was telling him to "f-off" or things like that. Some days, you could talk sense to him and make him see that it was just his illness. Other days - no way. He'd just leave because he couldn't handle it. He never got violent and he was a really gentle and good-natured soul. My heart always went out to him during those times though because he really and truly believed these hallucinations he was having and it was heart-breaking to watch. Of course, if he did end up leaving on one of these occasions, he'd re-appear a few days later - or whenever - and have zero recollection of the previous incident at all. Naturally, I'd also never bring it up. I accepted him for who he was and just enjoyed being a part of his life overall because he was generally OK most of the time. But one day, I learned the most amazing thing about this fellow. We'd been discussing our illnesses with each other and were both very interested in what each other was living with. Up until this point, I had naturally assumed that he was on disability. His illness was quite severe and even with his medications, there was no way Chris would have ever been able to function in a job for any length of time. Plus, he was ALWAYS at this Café - so it wasn't an unreasonable assumption. But boy was I ever wrong. As it happened, Chris was making far more money than I was and working even less - in fact, hardly ever! I'd never really thought too much about this camera he'd always have with him, as well as his guitar, sometimes flute, or any of the other various things he was always lugging around with him everywhere. As it turns out, Chris was a semi-famous photographer! He had an honest and decent agent (an old friend of his) who practically handled all of his business matters. All Chris really had to do was take pictures as he'd always done. Occasionally, he'd have to make the odd public appearance at a gallery etc and had been featured in numerous newspapers, magazines, and a few small TV appearances. He was a mini -celebrity and I hadn't even known it! Why? His photography! Something about his Schizophrenia allowed Chris to capture his unique view of the world through the lens of his camera. When I first began seeing his photography I was absolutely stunned by how profound his unique viewpoint was. I couldn't even describe it in words, but it was mesmerizing. And I wasn't the only person that thought so - his photography was being displayed on walls in the homes and offices of several wealthy and noteable people and always fetched a high price. Which was why he was able to just hang out at that Café all day and all the time. But had it not been for his Schizophrenia, his photography career would have likely been non-existant. While not every artist type is of the "tortured soul" variety, the fact remains that the best ones very often are. And like it or not, I do believe strongly that it is also their illness that is responsible for the fire behind their passion. Natural talent is one thing. But fire and natural talent is something far greater. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1874 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 6, 2018, IAIN wrote: And Penny's no different? Anyways, this is my last post for the night - I'm exhausted. Sometimes, I really can't stand you Iain. That's just being honest and we both know that's not a secret. Other times, I really like what you have to say on various things - even when I don't always agree. But through it all, I think we've both managed to keep things reasonably civil and I really appreciate that about you. With that said, if you - or anybody - wants to talk to me about anything, then please do so! I don't care what the issue is. I am still recovering from addiction and the damage it caused etc and I'm sure there's many things I have to answer for still - some of which, I may not even remember at all. I honestly don't know. But I'd like to. I am NOT a hard person to get along with and I am open to talking with people. Honestly, I try very hard to be a positive person and contribute here in a meaningful way at the Café. Yes, my ways and thinking doesn't always makes sense to others - and sometimes even to myself. But I really do try. I don't know what else to say. I haven't really been treated as a member of any community in my life because I had to move two (and sometimes three!) times to a NEW town EACH school year growing up. I don't know that many, if any, can even imagine what that does to a person. I never really learned how to fit in or "cause and effect" because I'd watched and learned as a child that if you screw up, you just run away to a whole new place and start all over again. I had a terrible childhood that was far from normal. I'm not looking for sympathy or trying to make excuses, but I am trying to explain things that are hard to fathom. So I never really learned how to be a member of a community and that's caused it's share of problems for me now as an adult. But I am trying, and have tried, very hard to be a value to people here. But if people treat like me a stray dog or outcast, as many have done my entire life, I will continue to respond in the same way. And I'd really rather just be a a part of the community. So if there's ever anything....just talk to me - that's all anyone has to do. I do respond well to genuine discussion, but not to games. If I come off as abrasive or egotistical at times, please understand that it isn't meant that way and I'm not even typically aware of this perception from others. It's the result of having to constantly present a solid wall for protection and also a firm confidence in the things I am good at. I don't know that I can be any more sincere than this. And I'm not embarrassed by any of this, because I have nothing to lose by being genuinely honest here and can say that at least I am genuinely trying to fit in and accommodate others. What more can I do? |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I would disagree about the Robin Williams thing completely... But that's not quite the point of this thread...
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1874 Posts |
This thread didn't have a real point - it was trying to be too many things at once me thinks.
You know, it's a shame that I am the only one who has enough courage to actually be honest and forthright here and willing to put their cards on the table publicly while others are still attempting to play their head games with me. I wonder though, if I suddenly decided to prove a point and release, say, a FREE!! new publication on a schedule of once a week - or every other week, and did that for 5 or 6 months straight - or longer, and ensuring that the little network of "Chinese Whisperer's" (I know who you all are) never gets their hands on a single copy of any of it - how many of the people in that little group would just completely self-destruct from jealousy and rage from all the comments of those who received it and appreciate what I have to bring to the table? I admit, the thought is quite tempting and amusing. And trust me - I am not only the sort who would do something like this just to make his point, but I have the capability and talent to do so as well. Nothing better than subduing your detractors with kindness, right? Anyone interested in "more"? I jest, but don't tempt me by constantly trying to diminish me. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 7, 2018, Sudo Nimh wrote: Well, that's your opinion, and that's fine. However, it sounds like sometimes this place is the worst thing for you at times. And I guess it's down to you to decide when that is and isn't. However, this isn't about those issues or how certain eople behave towards you. Though a fresh thread about it might be useful! To get back on track, how can we approach the issues I mention in my OP?
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1874 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 7, 2018, IAIN wrote: Yeah, you're right on that one Iain - this place is not always the best for me at times. If you really want to discuss your OP, can you maybe clarify just a little more about what you're trying to say there? That's an honest comment and not snide in any form. I mean, and no offense, a lot of the things expressed there are things that never go anywhere and never will. It's like we go around on loop after loop of the same topics here at the Café and it's pretty much always the same commentary. And yet, nothing ever changes. And why should it? But we'll be back to the subject again in another few months - I predict it'll be just after January. And then I catch myself and think: Does any of it really matter? Everything is just "perfect" and everything in the world is as it should be - how could it be anything different? |
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Adrien L. Elite user 479 Posts |
I will speak a little about my own process, as the timing of this thread makes me feel that I'm part of the reason it was created.
So, I understand IAIN and I agree that the way things are "evolving" (or devolving) is potentially dangerous in the sense that stuff gets less and less filtered, stuff gets hyped by friends, etc etc and the real value of a work takes a while to really show. But at the same times, it gives a chance to people who would have never had a chance and I think that's important. I'm so self-deprecating and full of self-doubt that I didn't want to release anything. I was encouraged to do so by people who have nothing to gain from either my success or failure, so I went ahead. I wrote it and sent it to all of my friends and even people who just seemed willing to give me some feedback. Opinions varied: overall, people liked it. Some had criticism, either with the method or with the way it was written. I rewrote the book 6 times (this is not an exaggeration, there are literally 6 versions of my book). When I was sort of happy with it and felt I addressed all the points I could address, I sent it to the people I look up to: Aaron Alexander, Paul Voodini, Jerome Finley, Fraser Parker, Peter Turner, to name a few. These were people who would have zero problem in telling me it was bad, so I trust their opinion. I felt it was well received enough to be released, so I had it edited and proof-read, made a nice little cover and put a post on my facebook. Everyone seemed to like it, some people had their critiques and I've chatted with almost all of the people who bought the book to make sure they got their money's worth and, to the best of my knowledge, no customer was unsatisfied. Then a thread was created on the café, and the rest, you know: ad copy was questioned, marketing was questioned, my friends were questioned, my experience as a performer was questioned... all by people who never read the book. So, as much as I understand the points you're trying to make, I think that it's hardly the biggest problem this place has. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I've got a lot to say, but it doesn't really seem worth it...
thanks anyway...
I've asked to be banned
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Thank you... (such a shame)
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
I don't even have the energy right now to read and respond to this.
But at as far as a guess I would think Sudo had the upper hand. He's my friend. |
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