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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Science Deniers on the Left- De Grasse Tyson (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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Oh man THAT was funny.

Well to me anyhow.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicfish
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Quote:
On Oct 17, 2018, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 17, 2018, Mr Salk wrote:
My hippy aunt lives in a yurt on a commune and makes crystal-energy jewelry.
She arguably denies a narrow swath of science, with no detriment to herself, society or the earth.

Governments and institutions that deny the swath of climate-change science are a pressing-danger to the existence of life on the planet.

Does your aunt recommend sick people forego medical treatment and rely strictly on the power of the crystals?


She's a hippy not a Christian scientist.

A Christian scientist? Like Carl Linnaeus, George Washington Carver, Arthur Eddington, Sir Robert Boyd? I'm pretty sure they believed in modern medicine of their day. Could you elaborate on your statement?
Someone close to me is both a crystal/ spiritual/ healer/cleanser and a Christian.
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 17, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Faith: “a complete trust or confidence in someone or something”

While I appreciate what science has done to better my life, I don’t depend on it to the point that I need to see a science study to try something new.
I can’t have complete trust (faith) in it knowing that it is sometimes wrong or often changed to fit the times. I rely on my own personal knowledge/experiences
to guide me through life. I like science I just don’t trust everything labeled as science like some seem to do.

Let’s not forget that many of the inventions we have today were invented by accident and can’t really be credited to science itself.
Science is just a tool and any tool is only as good as the person using it.

Tom


Tom,

Nothing is 100% infallible. But, do you have anything better than the scientific method of empirical testing to help us separate what’s objectively true about the world from what’s not?

No, science is not "changed to fit the times." Conclusions are occasionally revised/updated/overturned in light of new information. And that's a good thing. That's how we advance. Would you feel better if it was incapable of change? Again, think of science as a method, not an unchanging menu of proclamations. It's a logical process that involves hypothesis, observation, testing, replication, etc.

We all rely on our own personal knowledge/experiences to an extent. But nowadays much of that knowledge/experience has been informed by science. And where science hasn't informed us, it's important to remember just how fallible the human brain is. If simple magic tricks and optical illusions can fool the crap out of us, then we shouldn't be so confident in ourselves.

What are the many inventions we have today that were "invented by accident" and can't be credited to science? Again, someone using the tool of science in the wrong way is not an indictment of the scientific method itself. And it's no reason to not "trust" science.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jonathan Townsend
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Ron, the model from Newton is only three hundred years old, a blip compared to our much longer history of traditional stories and useful habits. Did you know that our best-guess models were updated by 'expanding universe', 'quantization of energy', 'uncertainty principle' at about the same time as the 'logical' models were updated with some discoveries about what's provable in a system that includes both sets and numbers? That was around 1910-1930. Not so long ago, in our lifetimes, we saw how sensitive computer models (or any boundry value system) are to minute variations in parameter data... pretty much what Bradbury wrote about in "Sound of Thunder" but we call it the Butterfly Principle.

It's still a good idea to wash your hands before handling food.
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TomBoleware
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Ron all I’m saying is: If you want to credit science with all the good you need to credit it with all the bad too.
Because all those items being recalled and pulled from the shelves every day, yes every day, were put there in the
name of science in the first place. The word science is often just being used as a powerful selling tool.

So yes I do agree it is not 100% infallible, not even close.


And I also agree that we should still trust, or as I say have 'faith' in it, because nothing in life is 100% guaranteed.



Tom
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0pus
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:

Because all those items being recalled and pulled from the shelves every day, yes every day, were put there in the
name of science in the first place.

Tom


You seem to be blaming science for faulty production (which poor production issues are firmly grounded in avarice).
TomBoleware
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Most products are ‘tested’ and believed to be good before put on the market. Many are approved by the FDA and then later pulled.
Failed science is still science. Poor science is still science. I too wish we had perfect science but we don’t.
That shouldn’t be so hard to understand.

Tom
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0pus
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I was not really considering drug matters. When I hear "product recall" I think of automobiles, toxic toys or dinnerware, ineffective safety equipment (like car seats or strollers), etc. Generally, these recalled items are not recalled due to poor science, they are recalled due to faulty execution.

On the drug front you are addressing, I disagree with your assertion that the recalls are due to poor science. Instead, the recalls result from social and political pressures to rush into production and an economic/social/political judgment not to conduct exhaustive tests. And judgments are also made with regard to whether certain known side effects of drugs are of sufficient concern to preclude the use of such drugs or whether they present an acceptable risk. And finally, there is mounting pressure from the populace for the FDA to approve even more drugs (or allow them to be used) without approval on an 'experimental' basis. Those in need of such drugs want them to cure their ills and assert that they are willing to assume the risks associated with the experimental drugs. Unfortunately, the producers (or potential producers) of such drugs fear that they will be penalized substantially when the side effects manifest even if the risks of such effects are clearly explained to potential users.
TomBoleware
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I think the auto industry has Engineers & Scientist that test their products before release.

And you would think the drugs were well tested by science before release. Incomplete testing is poor testing in my book.

For the record, and with all the flaws I can see in it, I still have faith in science to serve us well.
After all, you don’t always need a guarantee to trust something. Do you?

Tom
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Jonathan Townsend
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FDA approval is not a "science" matter. It's a political decision. Compare across other countries with similar agencies which approved or did not approve some items.

"testing" is part of "science" - you posit a rule as valid then clever folks come in and see if it really works.

@Tom, You're smarter than that. How sure can you be of something? Quantifying that is the very foundation of what we call confidence. Confidence limits risks. From engineering we also know that "complete" testing destroys what is being tested. You also know that resource/financial decisions are risk/benefit matters. Getting the odds on those risks has been driving mathematics as far back as the insurance business and paid for Newton's Principia. Arguing from naive realism seems more comical than quaint. Of course you also know that.
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R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
The word science is often just being used as a powerful selling tool.



Why do you think the word carries so much power and respect as to be a sought after "selling tool"?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
The word science is often just being used as a powerful selling tool.



Why do you think the word carries so much power and respect as to be a sought after "selling tool"?

Ron



Because at one time science was highly trusted, but that trust has been declining fast over the past few years.

Tom
A habit is a habit until you realize you doing it, then it is a choice.

The NEW Daycare Magician Book
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Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
Because at one time science was highly trusted, but that trust has been declining fast over the past few years.

Tom

Truth doesn't care about trust.
.


.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
Because at one time science was highly trusted, but that trust has been declining fast over the past few years.

Tom

Truth doesn't care about trust.

Are you certain?
Dannydoyle
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Society may care about trust. But isn't the truth sort of independent of trust? I don't know, I'm asking seriously.

I always just thought the truth was what it was. I'm willing to be wrong but now I'm curious.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 18, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
The word science is often just being used as a powerful selling tool.



Why do you think the word carries so much power and respect as to be a sought after "selling tool"?

Ron



Because at one time science was highly trusted, but that trust has been declining fast over the past few years.

Tom


Who says trust in science has been declining fast over the past few years? Is this just your own personal opinion? And who exactly are the non-trusters?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Oct 19, 2018, R.S. wrote:

Who says trust in science has been declining fast over the past few years? Is this just your own personal opinion? And who exactly are the non-trusters?

Ron


Science itself says that.

Tom
A habit is a habit until you realize you doing it, then it is a choice.

The NEW Daycare Magician Book
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Jonathan Townsend
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...Science itself says that.

Disagree. The variation in test-retest reliability of data presented in hi-prestige journals has been studied...
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TomBoleware
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“When it comes time to make decisions about science it seems to me that people have lost the ability to judge what is true and what is not, what to believe and what to not.” -- Neil deGrasse Tyson


Tom
A habit is a habit until you realize you doing it, then it is a choice.

The NEW Daycare Magician Book
https://www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Oct 19, 2018, TomBoleware wrote:
“When it comes time to make decisions about science it seems to me that people have lost the ability to judge what is true and what is not, what to believe and what to not.” -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
That's a personal opinion. People have opinions. Einstein had a oft quoted line about stupidity. Still opinion.

We have people offering arguments about the shape of our planet and positing models which explain little in the small and raise huge questions (which are not addressed in the large) - but seriously... not as playbow for dialectic but as rallying cry for a connection to their model of reality.

@Tom, science may have history and may have some common presuppostions but it's not a catechism. More like a basic driving test.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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