We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Everything old is new again » » Origins of the TT (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24143 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Actually, it's doubtful. It seems from the literature that either Humpage invented it and gave it to Hartz or Hartz invented it and gave it to Humpage. The TT simply DOES not appear anywhere in magic literature before the reference in Later Magic.

If it had been invented before then, it was the best-kept secret in all of magic.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
ursusminor
View Profile
Elite user
Norway
443 Posts

Profile of ursusminor
Quote:
On 2004-06-19 01:58, Partizan wrote:
Early Civilizations

Before the Greek, Roman and Egyptian civilizations emerged, prosthesis were made out of leather and wood. These early devices were developed for aesthetic purposes and weren’t functional.

[so I guess if you was a dude with a leather/wood thumb you might get around to putting things into it, or your mates might play around with it until someone cries, eureka!]

Finger and partial-finger amputations are some of the most frequently encountered forms of partial-hand losses (1). Although the most common causes of these amputations are traumatic injuries, congenital absences or malformations may present similar clinical challenges (2). Because any of the fingers may be affected in whole or in part, prosthetic restoration is often difficult. This is particularly true when multiple fingers are involved
----------------------------------

So we know lots of people loose fingers/thumb, We know the ancients used prosthetic fingers/thumb. My conclusion would be that it is a very old and well kept secret.

It is mentioned in H. Hay's "Cyclopedia of magic" that one of the Bamberg-family (Okito & Fu Manchu are two of their most famous members), had a wooden leg, which he used "as a servante".
A far cry from a TT, yes, but it kind of supports the above!

Bjørn
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them
pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened."
- Winston Churchill"
mattisdx
View Profile
Inner circle
1614 Posts

Profile of mattisdx
The thumb tip originated with pirates who would hid their gaffs in their peg legs, than one of them eventually wittled a wooden thumb. wah lah ! the thumb tip was born Smile
woodenmarvels
View Profile
New user
33 Posts

Profile of woodenmarvels
My great uncle always said that he had a "hollow leg" when I asked him where all that beer he drank would go. I was able to see the beer dissappear, but never, ever saw it re-a-pee-r. Hmmm, guess a shot of vodka might fit into my extra long TT. ~MagicAl
Magic is all around us, everywhere, every day. If you would just open your eyes to see it, you would be truly amazed.
Visit my world of automata at: http://www.members.aol.com/churchmouseabc/
~MagicAl
Andy_Bell
View Profile
Regular user
my mindless rambling's now total
162 Posts

Profile of Andy_Bell
Quote:
On 2004-06-21 22:08, Reis O'Brien wrote:
I have single-handedly created the fake earlobe


If you use both hands you could create them in half the time, mind you I'd be impressed to see a single handed vanish of a false ear lobe. lol
I was put on this earth to do a great many things..... I'm now so far behind that I don't think I'm ever going to die!
Bob Sanders
View Profile
Grammar Supervisor
Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama
20492 Posts

Profile of Bob Sanders
This is like asking an Alabama fan if Bear Bryant invented football. Old recording studio guys like the Tabman and me laugh at those who think recorded music started with MTV. Magicians are no different. But here is what I say in my silk and dove lectures. (Please remember that the following is my copyrighted material.)

**************

The thumb tip is not something anyone living could claim. It predates Marco Polo (1254-1324). The Great Khan is who you might ask for a more accurate history.

For the history of thumb tips, if you look under "magic" you're looking in the wrong place. Look under medical prosthetics. Another place to look is "sailing". Magicians did not invent rope, cards or coins either. Magicians use existing items in a unique way.

I'm quick to salute the Red, White and Blue. But when it comes to magic, Americans were several hundreds of years too late to take credit for much. Out of ignorance and arrogance we make all kinds of ridiculous claims. The truth is that we are the very new kids.

Since 1969, I have been in the import business. I am the magicians' silk importer. Some very interesting claims to originality and questions have come my way over the years. Most silk magic we know was being performed by the early 1400s in Europe (Over 200 years before America is even discovered by accident!) and certainly long before then in the Far East where they had silk, white doves, flash powder and thumb tips. None of these things existed in the Western World! They are all imports! But so is magic as we know it!

Enjoy!

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

(A passage from my silk lecture --- Copyright 2005 Bob Sanders)
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com http://www.magicbysander.com/
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24143 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
I continued studying about this at length. I saw arguments from some people who suggested that "the metal thumb appliance artillerymen used to stop the touch hole of a cannon" was the first thumb tip. This would have been very good if it were true. However, these thumb stalls were not metal. They were leather. If you would like to learn why, try it. A metal thumb stall gets so hot that it becomes a permanent part of the thumb.

I really would like to see a reference to a thumb tip or anything else like it anywhere in magic literature before the reference in Hoffmann.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Bob Sanders
View Profile
Grammar Supervisor
Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama
20492 Posts

Profile of Bob Sanders
Bill,

Thank you. You just added to my scope here. I never researched the military angle.

However, since they were medical prosthetics long before the cannon that specific reference would not extend the date of origin for me. Sailors used them much like the thimble for sewing but that is not necessarily military. For entertainment purposes and dress, they were part of Oriential old world costume before the 1200s. Although metal, some were covered. They were not for common people and represented quite an investment.

The real question is when and where did they become used to conceal anything except a missing or damaged digit? Paintings haven’t told us that. It is reasonable to expect that loads were suspended from them before coming to Europe. (They had places of attachment!) It might even be argued that there were suspended loads (wine from silk, egg on loop, etc.) before there were loads concealed inside them. The cloisonné made use of metal and the effort to conceal. Just what a magician needed!

Looking for it in magic literature is like looking for ink in magic literature. It is very unlikely it was invented for magic. Apparently it was a crime of opportunity like coins, cards, envelopes, string, and eggs to use it in magic. (Who invented the lap?)

Can you add anything?

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com http://www.magicbysander.com/
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24143 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Actually, the use of the lap as a servante is mentioned in Hocus Pocus Jr. I would really like to find out if anyone had used a prosthetic for magical purposes before, let's say, 50 years before Hoffmann's writeup.

Hoffmann was a lot like a dictionary. The material in it reflects what was being done in magic at the time or slightly before. I've looked through a lot of other material as well, such as The Secret Out and Hanky Panky, both of which have a lot of good material in them. But there is nothing like a thumb tip.

OTOH, we do see the use of false fingers for other purposes, such as the hat penetration.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Spellbinder
View Profile
Inner circle
The Holy City of East Orange, NJ
6439 Posts

Profile of Spellbinder
Here is an easier question: Does anyone know where I can find details about the creation (we won't say invention) of the Vernet thumb-tip? His use of plastic changed the dimensions of that venerable gimmick and made it possible to increase its uses beyond the used for the little metal tips available up until that time. I'd specifically like to know who Vernet was (plus dates, if possible) and when he first started producing the now famous and ubiquitous Vernet thumbtips. Thanks!
Professor Spellbinder

Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry

http://www.magicnook.com

Publisher of The Wizards' Journals
Bob Sanders
View Profile
Grammar Supervisor
Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama
20492 Posts

Profile of Bob Sanders
Professor,

I have metal thumb tips from the 60s that are up to 3" long. There were many sizes. Unfortunately all that I own are aluminum. Apparently the very best really old ones were silver and the earliest colored ones (prior to 1200AD) were copper.

I remember the Vernet hitting the market. (My dad was working in South America for a time.) Since these were legal imports there may still exist some commercial records at US Customs. I would look in the late 50s and very early 60s. The knock-offs were produced in Oklahoma by 1979. I suspect that they were made by the company that plastic coated baby seats and barbell weights. (Ben Collier may be a related name to research. He was the businessman of that period who did very well commercially with that process.)

I'm sure the information that you seek about Vernet is available somewhere. Ask Mr. F at D. Robbins. He would know. He was an early distributor and still distributes the current Vernet line.


Bill,

Most adults have experienced the need for a prosthetic lap. (Hot food and children bring special needs to mind! Santa!) It is odd that I learned lapping from Tony Slydini but no history. (You know that he lapped with his clothing as well as with the table cloth?)

Perhaps this is a publishing opportunity: The Secret History of the History of Secrets. Research will be tough.

Keep digging!

Bob


Posted: Jul 28, 2006 2:13pm
Quote:
On 2006-07-16 16:15, Spellbinder wrote:
Here is an easier question: Does anyone know where I can find details about the creation (we won't say invention) of the Vernet thumb-tip? His use of plastic changed the dimensions of that venerable gimmick and made it possible to increase its uses beyond the used for the little metal tips available up until that time. I'd specifically like to know who Vernet was (plus dates, if possible) and when he first started producing the now famous and ubiquitous Vernet thumbtips. Thanks!

That information is coming!

At the moment Michel & Greco (Vernet Magic) are in the FISM Convention in Stockholm.

I have asked that they bring us up to speed when they return.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com http://www.magicbysander.com/
Spellbinder
View Profile
Inner circle
The Holy City of East Orange, NJ
6439 Posts

Profile of Spellbinder
Thanks, Bob! I do remember that some metal ones were longer than the little 1 inch tips that were standard, and my first false finger from the 50s was made of cellulose painted with "flesh-colored" paint, so the possibility was there. It just lacked marketing motivation until suddenly everyone wanted to do the vanishing hanky at the same time.

I'll be interested in any history I can learn about the Vernet thumb tip ("Just names and dates and the facts, ma'am."- Sgt. Friday). I've put my own "Practical History of the Thumb Tip" on hold because I wanted it to be as complete as possible.
Professor Spellbinder

Professor Emeritus at the Turkey Buzzard Academy of Magik, Witchcraft and Wizardry

http://www.magicnook.com

Publisher of The Wizards' Journals
Bob Sanders
View Profile
Grammar Supervisor
Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama
20492 Posts

Profile of Bob Sanders
For years the way I used the TT was to vanish a stack of borrowed dimes in a large silk. Then I vanished the silk (30"). The silk reappeared elsewhere, was well-shown, and then the dimes poured from the center of the silk. What do you know? They were the marked borrowed ones! Then bouquet after bouquet of spring flowers were found in the silk.

Those were simpler days!

No silk in TT vanish would have passed. The smallest silks I ever saw then were 12". They were for hobbyists with dye tubes. Working magicians used 18" and up. "Handkerchiefs" had to be a reasonable size. (The good Cadillacs were no longer made before I started importing 6" and 9" silks. I wonder if these two events had something in common?)

We'll have to go to StarBucks and discuss this sometime.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander


Posted: Oct 24, 2006 9:22am
-------------------------------
Another piece of the puzzle has come to light from the Etymology of "thumb". Until German medical literature in the late 1200s, the thumb was considered just another finger in Europe. (This is after Marco Polo!) Then the word appears in German medical literature for thumb.

"Finger tip" would have been the contemporary description. (How many Americans still don't know the difference between a frog and a toad? It does change the written history.)

Magic is hardly of European origin. But printed history of magic may be.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com http://www.magicbysander.com/
Jamie D. Grant
View Profile
V.I.P.
as seen in Ripley's Believe It or Not! Twice!
2413 Posts

Profile of Jamie D. Grant
How about the origin of the first person to vanish a silk into a TT?
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
Kindness takes practice. My TEDx talk
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24143 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
The vanish of a silk into a TT is probably quite old. I have a reasonably large collection of FT's and TT's. Among them are some of the old "Goblin Tube Tips," which would easily handle a fairly decent sized hanky. They are about 3 inches long.

Regarding the old German distinction between the thumb and the fingers, Grimm's Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache indicates that the earliest reference to the thumb is in an old poem from the 12th century. However, that's a written reference. We don't know about spoken references before then.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Mad Jake
View Profile
Inner circle
All the voices in my head helped me make
1740 Posts

Profile of Mad Jake
TT? I didn't know they had True Type back in Hoffmann's day. And we thought we developed that at Apple. Smile
For quality cups and balls, go to www.rnt2.com
Tom Bartlett
View Profile
Special user
Our southern border could use
763 Posts

Profile of Tom Bartlett
With some of the oldest written documents and some of the oldest magic coming from China, is there any know mention of using a false finger in any of their scrolls?
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
26761 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
What references to trickery do we have from China?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Tom Bartlett
View Profile
Special user
Our southern border could use
763 Posts

Profile of Tom Bartlett
Chinese Linking Rings? Smile
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
Tony James
View Profile
Inner circle
Cheshire UK
1398 Posts

Profile of Tony James
Chinese Rice Bowls?
Tony James

Still A Child At Heart
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Everything old is new again » » Origins of the TT (2 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2018 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.34 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL