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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5608 Posts
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 7:29pm
Jon I enjoyed the story and I see where this relates to the arts.
One of the small points is that stealing or as some say borrowing material has been a part of magic for a long time.
In the Percy Abbott book he talks about going around to see all the illusionists of the day with Nicola and Nicola wanting to buy the Dizzy Limit.
In Illusion show with David Bamberg as Fu Manchu. David tells a story about how he found Nicola backstage standing next to his sawing and wanted to find out how his sawing worked.
Magic and the illusion show as David writes that their was a lot of borrowing of effects and material in those days.
My issue with it has always been a personal one. Perhaps to personal.
I wrote this in another thread. I feel that people do this because of money in business. Today we have a lot of magic dealer businesses that are very large. And the magic sub culture is not really that big of a market.
In this market we have magicians that are performers and inventers of magic. In other words the artists that make the art.
Also in this market we have performers that do shows and magicians that don't do shows and enjoy magic as a fun thing to do.
This second market buys the most magic and is interested in getting the new trick first. Many of them have another job so they can afford to drop big money in magic sales.
In the magic sub culture market these dealers need products to sell them. Some dealers of the past came up with great ideas and built great magic businesses because they came up with ideas.
Now it is a lot harder but they still have to have art product to sell to customers. If they can't make it the only way to get it is to get it from the artist. Often one way or another...
I feel that when art hits business it is art and the artist that is hurt as a general rule.
But knowing this and this happens every day in big business outside the magic world and in the real business world. I find that we can take steps to try to take credit for the art that we come up with.
It is a very interesting issue and not an easy one...
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 7:51pm
Quote:
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On 2004-10-12 19:29, bishthemagish wrote:
...One of the small points is that stealing or as some say borrowing material has been a part of magic for a long time. |
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You can stop anytime you want. All it takes is a decision that in some ways you are better than a pigeon watching other pigeons. That in some ways you can do better than the monkey with its hand on the coconut, but unable to take the coconut.
It is up to you.
Do you really enjoy the envy of other magicians as you show off your newly acquired secrets?
Do you have to be the first kid on the block to have a decoder ring?
Do you really care how the card that was put second from the top got back to the top?
All you have to do, inside yourself, is say NO.
You can then put aside all the stuff you covet, envy, took and borrowed and get back to being an artist.
When you focus on what makes sense for you, as your self expression, you have all the world to inspire you.
Yes folks, you don't have to steal your artistic integrity by imitating others.
You can start by just asking yourself why you do the routines and tricks you do. What do they mean to you? How do you feel when you perform them? What is the reaction you would like to get from them? How did you feel when you first saw or read the trick. Why did you learn the trick?
Your actions announce your choices. The choices are yours.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Giggip
New user
63 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 8:33am
I think that it depends on whether you are a magician or a hobbyist. If you are a hobbyist, I think that it is ok. It is also ok if you are a magician but I wouldnt use it in a working repetoire or for commercial purposes. But yeah, its alright, I believe, to perform for family and friends etc.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 9:27am
Giggip,
Where do you draw the line for yourself?
In your home for family/friends? At a party if just doing a few tricks?
We need some good common sense guides on this issue.
Thanks in advance
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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meilechl
Special user
657 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 10:37am
I think it depends on what exactly is being copied.
1. A sleight - NEVER considered stealing. If you see a magician using a sleight and you work out how it works you have every right to incorporate it in your tricks.
2. A classic trick - can also be copied by anyone who works out a method. An example of a classic trick would be Ambitious Card, Triumph, Sawing a Lady In Half etc.
3. A trick invented by that magician - if it's not his signature piece and you don't copy his presentation verbatim there's no reason why you can't work out a method of doing it. The great names of magic (Vernon, Marlo, etc.) would do it the whole time. In fact that's how many tricks were born, by a magician seeing an effect and trying to come up with a way to do it. If you're publishing your methods you should, however, credit (but not more than that) the originator for inspiring the effect.
4. A routine or signature piece - shouldn't be copied without permission because although you might be coming up with your own method you're still stealing the routine (or the name people connect to effect X). There's no point in stealing it, either, as you don't want people seeing your show and saying, 'Hey, I already saw this show once'.
5. A specific presentation or twist on classic tricks - same as #4.
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Black Magic
New user
New Orleans, La
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 1:07pm
Oh my God!!! All the people that think it's stealing, STOP DOING MAGIC!!! How can you consider seeing someone do an effect and call it stealing if you replicate it? You should think of yourself as being gifted to pick up on such a thing. And think more of yourself if you can make the effect look better. If you think it stealing then ALL of us has stole our magic. If I had to get permission for every effect I did I would still bbe stuck on trying to find the patton on the DL so that I could clear my conscience when doing the Ambitious, of course after I found the inventor of that one jus to make sure he wouldn't mind me bringing a card to the top of deck when ever I snap my fingers.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 1:30pm
You call it. Your choice. Your ethics. And be happy when others take the same choices as you do. 
No problem, so long as while you are doing someone else's trick, ... you don't mind if someone else having their way with something personal of yours. A wife or girlfriend perhaps. After all, they are nowhere near as personal as an invention or art work... and they are their own person who can make their own choices too. Right?
So go ahead and snap your fingers. And perhaps also hope that other people have better ethics, or at least higher standards than you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Frank Starsini
Eternal Order
Northern California
12250 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 1:52pm
Black Magic,
What if you invent a trick, it gets great kudos from the big names, and you start to market it. Big names buy it and start to use it in their professional repertoire. That would be cool, eh?
Then what if someone comes along and switches your aces to kings, uses the exact same presentation (a story about your own father) calls it something else, and starts to sell it for $5 less with no credit to you, and without your permission. And all the newbies buy that one instead of yours, just because it's $5 cheaper.
How would you feel?
Honestly?
That's what we're getting at, I believe.
Trying to compare stealing with finding the inventor of the double-lift so you can do the Ambitious Card
is not the issue here.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 2:04pm
Aside from the VERY recent publication of the Stuart Gordon Double Turnover, the older sources on the subject, from Expert Card Technique (Miller, Vernon) and others from the early 1900s seem pretty good about this subject. Did you know that one of the biggies in most folks ACR was invented by one of the members of the café, Wesley James? One of the most impressive ACR effects, that of a protruding card rising through the deck was pioneered by another café member, Geoff Latta, and soon, a mechanical version will be available from Gaeton Bloom.
I mention this to remind ALL that the discoveries are made by people, some of whom are reading posts here on the café. If you like, or even just respect their works that you know of, and would like to see more such quality works, it helps to support those people.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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chrisrkline
Special user
Little Rock
965 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 2:08pm
Quote:
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On 2004-10-13 13:07, Black Magic wrote:
Oh my God!!! All the people that think it's stealing, STOP DOING MAGIC!!! How can you consider seeing someone do an effect and call it stealing if you replicate it? You should think of yourself as being gifted to pick up on such a thing. And think more of yourself if you can make the effect look better. If you think it stealing then ALL of us has stole our magic. If I had to get permission for every effect I did I would still bbe stuck on trying to find the patton on the DL so that I could clear my conscience when doing the Ambitious, of course after I found the inventor of that one jus to make sure he wouldn't mind me bringing a card to the top of deck when ever I snap my fingers.
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Well, this has been beat to death, but you do not have to personally contact everyone connected with a trick. I can perform Hamman's Twins, because I purchased the right to do so when I bought the Kaufman book.
How are you coming up with these effects that we claim are stealing? Are you watching others do their routines and then you reverse engineer the effect?
If you are reverse engineering a published effect, purchase the effect. If you are reverse engineering an effect that is not published, don't do the effect. Most of the time, the ethics are not that hard to keep up with.
There are some gray areas, but it is not that hard to stay away from them.
Chris
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5608 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 6:02pm
Magicians in magic could draw a line in the sand and some of them do and have. But the interesting thing about human nature is that we sometimes don't have a problem with something - until it effects us personally.
In other words like - It is hard to know how it feels until it happens to them.
I remember in the old magic shop we had an employee that was hired who was a friend. He was fine for a while but he started to do my stuff and my routines. Even the gags he would do a carbon copy of the lines I would use over the gag counter.
I talked with other magicians in town about it and they said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
About a year later he quit the shop and hooked up with several local magicians and started to copy them. They came into the shop and complained to me...
You know Glenn You were right about that guy. He has been stealing my routines...
I said - Imitation is the....
Often were not bothered by something like this until it happens to us... As I said before it is an interesting subject...
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1500 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 6:39pm
Tangent.
In the two examples of the original and duplicate, there were no differences, other than the dates of author.
How can't this be considered a copy?
How is it a question of "How?" Confused. Please elaborate.
Patrick
First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 6:43pm
The texts may be identical, but what about the meaning?
If the meaning is different, then aren't the works distinct?
This is not a tangent... it is the root of how we decide if a work has merit and context.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1500 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 7:01pm
If the texts are identical and the meaning is different...then it is a matter of intent.
Intent is not the same as perception. Intent is the directive. Perception is the response.
It's a mirror...at a little less than the speed of light...
First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?
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Patrick Differ
Inner circle
far enough south to surprise you
1500 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 7:13pm
Add confusing.
Perception is reality...in most cases. Confuse perception with intent and we have dilemma.
Make a choice. Intent...or...perception.
Initially intent is easier. Perception...yeah...that's a bit different...
I like...
First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 7:18pm
Keep going down that path.
Do we honor the intent?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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CamelotFX
Special user
Minnesota
596 Posts
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Posted: Oct 13, 2004 10:33pm
Well, the artist has only intent to present. Perception is the spec's province.
http://camelotfx.blogspot.com
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RonCalhoun
Special user
Independence, KY USA
574 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 12:40am
Quote:
| 2004-10-03 23:55, edh wrote:
If you watch a magician do a trick and figure out how it is done, is it stealing if you perform it? I am talking about some classic card tricks by well-known card magicians.
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Your question is a little vague which makes it hard to answer without giving a ton of examples. If the tricks a “classic” why would you not know its working. Are you asking about using someone else’s routine. For example:
A few years back Copperfield performed a cut and restored rope with cut, no cut scissors. Within days magicians all over the world are doing the cut and restored rope with cut no cut scissors. They put the scissors in their pants ask a girl to remove them. Word for word, line for line. That is stealing.
But, to see Copperfield perform the same trick and use it as a starting point to come up with your own routine, That’s inspiration.
Buy wait, If you find the effect in a book by the creator or learn it at a lecture. Feel free to use it word for word. That’s called learning the ropes!
Ron
Number 1 Winner of the Café Search Engine Trivia Contest. https://www.weddingstorytelling.com/
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David Nelson
Elite user
San Mateo, CA
403 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 1:03am
Ron,
That's what a lot of people have been arguing about for going on 7 pages. I and most of us who value these creations that become, for want of a better word, intellectual property agree with your point of view. The grey area is where a routine changes from rip off to inspired originality.
BTW - I don't think Copperfield actually used no cut scissors. He used a method that's much more difficult to replicate.
Dave
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5608 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 11:44am
Marco S. said something that I find interesting and it started me thinking on these lines.
Part of human nature is how we justify ourselves when we do something wrong. This is part of human nature to help us move on and get through the day.
When I was younger I was talking to an older pro magician that was doing a trick that wasn't his. He just started doing it and his attitude was that he invented magic and other stold from him... So now it was OK in his mind to steal an effect from others.
Anyway this was his way of justifying what he did - a part of human nature that we all share...
I feel that part of where we draw the line in this issue is partly decided by what we all have personally been through in life. And what we have learned by looking around the world of magic...
I feel that this same human nature quality is why some people end up being card cheats. many of the excuses for the con men of three card Monte justify the act...
As to advantage players at the card table. I met one once and they said that any one of the players that they sit down with to play cards look for advantages while playing the game. And would take the opportunity to look at another’s hand or try to peak at the bottom card... Etc...
Anyway that was just an example of how humans justify an act that many would feel is a wrong act.
An interesting subject.
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 12:24pm
I like the part about contacting the inventors to ask about stuff.
It is an honor to be asked. And let me tell you... it feels great when they get back to you with their sentiments on things.
As things stand... Dan LeFay has something I'd like to use. I could use it without asking... but that would make me just what Marco is warning us NOT to be... hypocritical and pretentious.
I prefer just pretentious 
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
13414 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 2:02pm
I do not think this is question about honesty. To me the question is do you want to be an artist and practice the art of magic. It does not follow that if you are dishonest or evil you can not be an artist.
You can not copy art and call yourself an artist. I pause here ask what is art in magic? Is it a trick an invention a sleight or what. To my mind it is the magicians performance. Much like singers can sing the same song or actors play the same part it is their performance that makes them artists. Cross the line and become an Elvis impersonator, and no matter how good you are or how honestly you do it, you are less than artist in to my eyes.
For a magician to take a magic invention or trick without permission, is not the same thing, that is stealing, but not only that it seems a low thing to do, its like stealing from a friend who trusts you. It is a point of honour, is it not. Also is there any need when there is so much magic shared by magicians and even when it sold it is sold at a very fair price in my opinion. Look at Expert at the Card Table what do you want for $8. Most DVDs are about $30 and have more magic on them than most could master.
Thats my 2c for today
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Black Magic
New user
New Orleans, La
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 2:41pm
That brings the question, is it alright to borrow books and videos from people? I mean, I didn't buy the resource so I really don't have permission from the author to perform the effect in it right? I am not tryin to sound stupid with the question but I truely don't think that it is stealind nor is replicating something you saw stealing. One the other hand concerning the message about the $5. In my eyes that's not stealing but it would be some down bad stuff if I wasn't consulted ONLY because of the marketing. But if someone saw me do an effect and liked it and decided to do it without my permission, be my guess. Actually I would feel good knowing my ideas are worth other people doing them. It would be nice to drop my name or credit me but if not, NO HARD FEELINGS!!!!
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
25306 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 2:55pm
Okay, let's look at a hypothetical situation and see how it works out.
Consider you have a buddy, Mike. Mike is a collector of very rare and expensive magic stuff. He just got a limited edition video, only 100 will ever be sold. He watched it and mentions to you that there is a card trick you might like. You say okay, and come over, and see the thing, performance only and say 'wow' I'm gonna buy that video. He tells you it costs 1000 dollars. You ask him to show you the method section for that trick so you can see if you really want to spend all that on it. He shows you. and you go home to count your cash.
Okay, you decide to buy a video, and in the mean time you decide to play with the trick. No harm done right? And you work out something that looks almost as good and can use the same presentation. You try it out at a party. Goes over real well.
Another buddy, let's call him Tom is at the party, and is real good with cards. He sees the trick and tells you how good it is. You decide NOT to tell him how you did it. He goes home and reconstructs the effect using a method that you did not use... BUT IS THE SAME AS THE ONE ON THE TAPE.
Next year, at the convention, your buddy Tom is showing around a trick he saw and a method he invented for himself.
At the convention, the guy who made the tape is there, and sees this. He goes over the Tom and congratulates him on doing his trick so well. Tom denies it is anyone else's but his own trick. The guy asks what about the other tricks on the tape. Tom denies any knowledge of the tape. The guy is really puzzled. Long before making the video, the guy checked all the books, and with all the experts. He knows that his effect, his routine, and his method are all original.
At the convention, someone from who publishes a magic magazine is there, and asks Tom about the trick. Tom, seeing the opportunity to get published says 'okay' and lets the guy write it up. Three months later, Tom's trick is in print.
Okay folks. What happened?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Black Magic
New user
New Orleans, La
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 3:11pm
What happened with Tom and Mike is something that is seen in magic all the time. I heard from a very well known magician that no idea in card magic is original. In other words, there are so many methods that been publish, told, handed down, etc., that even if Tom thought it was his idea about 25 other magicians that see the tape may think of the same idea. and if you really think it's that big of a deal, the original idea WILL get back to the magazine. If not, I hope you got Mike's number.
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meilechl
Special user
657 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 3:32pm
In the same way that The Professor and Ed Marlo could reverse engineer effects, so can anyone else. The fact that the creator of this 'rare and expensive' video thought of a method to an effect doesn't mean that no one else is allowed to find one - even the original method. Maybe he has to credit the creator for inspiring the effect. Maybe, but certainly not anymore than that.
How many Sawing a Lady In Half, Levitation, Zombie Ball, Dove Productions etc. etc. are there? Did everyone contact everyone and ask permission? Did they have to? Everyone has the right to try and invent a method for an effect.
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Open Traveller
Inner circle
1087 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 4:00pm
Quote:
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On 2004-10-14 15:32, meilechl wrote:
In the same way that The Proffessor and Ed Marlo could reverse engineer effects so can anyone else. The fact that the creator of this 'rare and expensive' video thought of a method to an effect doesn't mean that no one else is allowed to find one - even the original method. Maybe he has to credit the creator for inspiring the effect. Maybe, but certainly no anymore than that. |
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I think anyone can reverse engineer anything. That's not a problem.
Anyone can study anything of anybody else's. That's not a problem, either.
When we adopt an idea, though, whether it be a method, a presentation, or even just a "touch" on something, and use it as if it were free for the taking, that's a problem.
If we show it around indiscriminately or perform it, that's a problem.
If we're inspired, begin our research based on someone else's work, and build on it, no problem.
If we publish or perform our research before the original person has had a chance to publish his, that's a problem. That person might not have wanted to release his work yet, but here we are, releasing it for him on the premise that we saw him do it, we changed it, therefore we can publish at will. Simple manners would dictate that we hold off until the originator decides to release his work to the community -- or at the very least, to ask him if it's okay to put our take on his work out there. It's not our right and we have no entitlement to release his work prematurely.
Quote:
| How many Sawing a Lady In Half, Levitation, Zombie Ball, Dove Productions etc. etc. are there? Did everyone contact everyone and ask permission? Did they have to? Everyone has the right to try and invent a method for an effect.
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No, they didn't -- and no, they didn't "have to." But as a whole, magic would be better if they had.
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Daegs
Inner circle
USA
4266 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 4:23pm
What happened with Tom and Mike, was many people didn't do their ethical responsibilities.
You shouldn't have played around with the thing in public until you had finished buying the tape.
Tom shouldn't have copied the effect, instead he should have talked to you first and found out who the creator was, and that he would have to drop $1000 to perform the effect.
Tom, even after copying the effect, shouldn't have been showing it around to other magicians, especially at a convention.
The publisher from the magazine, should have known that the effect was really XXX's, and shouldn't have published it. If he didn't know, he should find out before putting anything in print.
Surely, 1 of the 100 buyers were a "name" in magic and could have spoken out to this before it happened.
What happened was guy got screwed
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bishthemagish
Inner circle
5608 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 4:24pm
What happens if Pat watches and tapes a TV talk show with a magician on it. He uses slow motion to work out the effect. The magician performs a trade mark trick that he worked out using trick cards and patter from a published book but he changed a lot of it to fit his performing style.
This effect has never been published this way - (but it used well known methods of magic that were published)... And never seen presented in this performing style. This magician also became known for performing this and it became a trademark routine for this magician.
Does Pat have the right to copy it word for word and move for move....
A, And perform it in his room alone for his own amusement?
B, Perform it for friends at a party?
C, Perform it at paying shows?
Just a few thoughts and opinion.
Glenn Bishop - Bish The Magish!
Magician, Card Sharp and Master Hypnotist.
http://glennbishopmagicandcards.blogspot.com
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Black Magic
New user
New Orleans, La
87 Posts
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Posted: Oct 14, 2004 4:40pm
I think we need to get Tom, Mike, and Pat in here!
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