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Topic: Why not use genuine plastic cards?
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Feb 1, 2005 03:25AM)
Hello everyone!

All of us work with Bicycles, Tallies etc etc. These get so quickly worn that make our performance difficult with DLs, passes etc and on top of that we are forced to buy dozens of decks each time.

By accident, I checked a 7 yrs old deck of genuine plastic cards (italcards is the brand - unfortunately out of business now). Although it was heavily used, I was able to perform much easier doubles (perfect alignment), riffle passes (no permanent bents at cards), elmesleys etc etc. I was amazed and I thought why not take few decks of those and keep them almost for ever and to actually cope with cards of almost SAME & STABLE quality through time... (that also do not get black from dirt on their sides)

Of course I cant tear them etc but at the end I strongly believe that it is a very cost efficient way and most importantly these cards never die so you don't find yourself always seeing your cards ageing up, being dirty, having horrible bents etc.

What do you fellow performers think?

Bests to all of you!
Message: Posted by: Jhonsky (Feb 1, 2005 03:30AM)
I think it's okay to use generic plastic cards. In fact a friend of mine suggested me to practice with those cards, because they don't wear out as easy. Those cards would also save money, especially when you get them from Wal-mart or something :)
Message: Posted by: Andrew Loh (Feb 1, 2005 03:52AM)
Hi folks,

I am not really sure is it the plastic decks that you mentioned is it same which sold at my local bookshop.

The cards are soft but however, when you want to execute any sleights, it is not very easy. :(

But, it's fun to use I to perform flourishes and etc.

Best,
Andrew Loh
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Feb 1, 2005 04:19AM)
@ Jhonsky: I think that the deck you practice should be the same with the one you plan to perform out there - otherwise you will find yourself doing many mistakes...

@ Andrew: It's not that easy to tell which deck is best-suited for sleights etc but I can tell for granted that those italcards were amazing - a sure bet... Unfortunately they are out of business now and we may only hope to any willing member of this forum to suggest us any alternative brand.

The question remains though: why if plastic cards (as italcards that I witnessed) perform so well, then no one uses them and even more no magic outlet sells them????

Bests
Message: Posted by: Felix Cardician (Feb 1, 2005 04:38AM)
A few reasons why I don't like plastic cards:
* They are totally crap for fanning
* They come in bridge size
* Many sleights are more difficult to perform with them, for example multiple lifts (yes I know you said that they are easier but I disagree lol)
* You cant use them in T/R effects
* They don't smell as good as "real" cards lol
* Backdesigns are usually not even close to the quality and style of Poker cards

:wavey:
Message: Posted by: pointStack (Feb 1, 2005 04:41AM)
The Card Collection sell a poker sized deck of plastic cards manufactured by Fournier. I use them regularly and they are perfect for faro routines. They remain perfectly flat and so are useful for perfect double lifts etc.
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Feb 1, 2005 05:53AM)
@Poinstack: thnx for the suggestion. I checked out the website, is the particular deck the Fournier 2508? Are you happy with it regarding any other sleights you work with?
You see, I am really willing to go for such a deck, price is 3 times up but it will last so longer...
Message: Posted by: JoaoPedro (Feb 1, 2005 06:07AM)
I've used both Bicycle, Tally-Ho and Fournier decks. Fournier cards are good and in fact they last a little bit longer than Bikes. Great magicians like Lennart Green, Juan Tamariz and Luis de Matos (one of the best stage magicians in the world - a Portuguese magician). Personnaly, I prefer the U.S ones than the Spanish ones but each magician has its own feel and taste! As far as I'm concerned Fournier 404 are the best ones in plastic cards - they come poker size and you can do fans, DL's, passes and whatsoever...
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Feb 1, 2005 06:36AM)
I searched the web but found no source for the Fournier 404. Where did you buy them from? Card Collection doesn't stock them and I checked the Fournier site and there is no info on model numbers so I have not even a clue about its design...

Please JoaoPedro, tell if possible from where we may get hold of those...
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Feb 1, 2005 07:34AM)
I use some PVC cards to make my Invisible Decks with. They resist humidity better than any ID I've ever used. The r**ghing is dependable, especially when I rub the sm**th sides with Cashmere Bouquet soap.
Message: Posted by: Canvey Card Sharp (Feb 1, 2005 07:51AM)
Are we talking about plastic 'finish' (e.g. USPCC Streamline and Fournier) or 100% plastic made cards (e.g KEM).

There is a major difference!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 1, 2005 08:15AM)
The point is they are economical for practicing.
I only use plastics but I am not a magician I am a gambler. What you can do with them is Shuffle Work, False dealing and Palming in fact there is little you can not do with them.
These are very good and cost about 4 a deck: They are Poker size. I have seen them advertised as plastic coated but they are in fact 100% plastic.
They have a rough feel to them, giving a great friction for false dealing. You can, well I can, do a perfect riffle table faro with them far easier than I can with Bicycle.
You can not fan them but that is about it.
Wash them now and again and you have a new deck. I bought a few decks but I have needed to open one. I have give them some tough work for about 3 months and they are still like new.
These ones are very much like Kems. Beware you can buy cheap 100% plastics that are indeed rubbish to do any kind of work with. But these Dal Negro Torcello poker cards are good and used in some casinos. Kems are also good but expensive, in the UK they cast about 15 a deck.

[url=http://www.dalnegro.com/catalogc.do?idc=1&idl1=987&idl2=988&idl3=991&idl4=&idp=171]dalnegro[/url]

Also Copag 100% plastics are good.
Message: Posted by: implicit (Feb 1, 2005 08:58AM)
It really depends, for some effects I think bee's and tally-ho's just feel a lot more smooth than kem's. Try them out and see what feels most natural to you.
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Feb 1, 2005 09:04AM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-01 05:38, Felix Cardician wrote:
A few reasons why I don't like plastic cards:
* They are totally crap for fanning
* They come in bridge size
* Many sleights are more difficult to perform with them, for example multiple lifts (yes I know you said that they are easier but I disagree lol)
* You cant use them in T/R effects
* They don't smell as good as "real" cards lol
* Backdesigns are usually not even close to the quality and style of Poker cards

:wavey:
[/quote]

Felix beat me to it. I have to concur on all of these points. I've tried using Kems and other than the fact that you can shoot them (long distance spinner) like there's no tomorrow, they have proven otherwise useless to me.

Which is a shame, the Kem arrow-backs have a beautiful design! Oh well.
Message: Posted by: Eight Spades (Feb 1, 2005 09:15AM)
Most magicians don't use Kems because they're horrible for handling. Great for playing games, but you just can't use them for many sleights.
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Feb 1, 2005 09:26AM)
I checked out the Dal Negro Torcello ones and they come to a very reasonable price too (2,75 UK pounds). Is any other one of you having any experience on the handling of the particular PVC deck with sleights?

Any suggesstions are more than welcomed.

Bests
Message: Posted by: Canvey Card Sharp (Feb 1, 2005 09:53AM)
So you are a GAMBLER that uses plastic cards?

Casinos allows you to take your own cards along then? I'd love to know where, as it might give me a slight advantage! Or do you gamble at home? If so, you must have very trusting 'friends' that allow you to always use the same deck. Make sure they do not see you false dealing mate - you may lose a few of them (as well as your teeth)!

Or do you mean you are a card magician that performs gambling routines? If so that's okay!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 1, 2005 11:52AM)
Canvey Card Sharp

Was it you I saw in the casino playing the Coca Cola machine and trying to win a can of Coke?

I run a poker game and Kem cards are used there. Kem cards are also used in Casinos, not my Kems, the casinos buy their own. Some casinos use Dal Negro cards, again not my Dal Negros but their own.

I use the Dal Negros and Kems to practice Cardsharping work and then look for guys who think they have won a can of coke.

I will take your advice and be careful that they do not see me false dealing but take my advise and do as you please.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: JoaoPedro (Feb 1, 2005 02:41PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-01 07:36, aware wrote:
I searched the web but found no source for the Fournier 404. Where did you buy them from? Card Collection doesn't stock them and I checked the Fournier site and there is no info on model numbers so I have not even a clue about its design...

Please JoaoPedro, tell if possible from where we may get hold of those...
[/quote]

Sorry...I made a mistake...it's fournier 505 and not 404. It's the standard fournier deck, poker size.
Cheers,
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 1, 2005 05:33PM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-01 10:15, Eight Spades wrote:
Most magicians don't use Kems because they're horrible for handling. Great for playing games, but you just can't use them for many sleights.
[/quote]

I agree. Worst Cards I've ever touched. And at $30 a deck....
Message: Posted by: Canvey Card Sharp (Feb 1, 2005 05:41PM)
Tommy - you know a luv them coke machines - a prize every time.

However, not as much as I'd like to be one of your friends at a poker game and get fleeced - what a great guy you must be to know.

By the way, my local casino in Southend Essex doesn't use KEM or Del Negro. Not to worry though - it's got a great coke machine.
Message: Posted by: H_Ho (Feb 1, 2005 05:54PM)
You can't put in and take out crimps as easily in plastic cards - one reason Forte gives for using plastic cards in games.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 1, 2005 07:04PM)
Canvey Card Sharp

If you think you will find friends at the poker tables, then that coke might not be good for your brain.

C o k e
1. In many states (in the USA) the highway patrol carries two gallons of Coke in the truck to remove blood from the highway after a car accident.
2. You can put a T-bone steak in a bowl of coke and it will be gone in two days.
3. To clean a toilet: Pour a can of Coca-Cola into the toilet bowl and let the "real thing" sit for one hour, then flush clean. The citric acid in Coke removes stains from vitreous China.
4. To remove rust spots from chrome car bumpers: Rub the bumper with a rumpled-up piece of Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil dipped in Coca-Cola.
5. To clean corrosion from car battery terminals: Pour a can of Coca-Cola over the terminals to bubble away the corrosion.
6. To loosen a rusted bolt: Applying a cloth soaked in Coca-Cola to the rusted bolt for several minutes.
7. To bake a moist ham: Empty a can of Coca-Cola into the baking pan, wrap the ham in aluminum foil, and bake. Thirty minutes before the ham is finished, remove the foil, allowing the drippings to mix with the Coke for a sumptuous brown gravy.
8. To remove grease from clothes: Empty a can of coke into a load of greasy clothes, add detergent, and run through a regular cycle. The Coca-Cola will help loosen grease stains. It will also clean road haze from your windshield. Check it out.
For Your Info :
1. The active ingredient in Coke is phosphoric acid. Its pH is 2.8. It will dissolve a nail in about 4 days. Phosphoric acid also leaches calcium from bones and is a major contributor to the rising increase in osteoporosis.
2. To carry Coca-Cola syrup (the concentrate) the commercial truck must use the Hazardous material place cards reserved for highly corrosive materials.
3. The distributors of coke have been using it to clean the engines of their trucks for about 20 years!
Now the question is, would you like a glass of water or coke?

Essex! That is a more likely explanation.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: GeorgeSantos (Feb 1, 2005 08:17PM)
I really like working with plastic (KEM) cards. I have no problem handling it. But I do have a problem looking for poker-sized plastic cards. Plastic cards have disadvantages though, No T&R, No Braue Pop-Up Move, No Fanning, No Spreads, and compared to the normal cards we use they are much softer.
Message: Posted by: Owen Thomas (Feb 2, 2005 03:57AM)
Does anybody use Ravensburger? I just bought some at asda for 1,50.
Message: Posted by: Canvey Card Sharp (Feb 2, 2005 08:05AM)
Yep - I've been using them whenever I can't get a brick of Waddingtons. Ravensburger are hard wearing and printed/cut well - but the backs could ideally be a little darker.

Unfortunately my local Asda are replacing them with bicycles when they run out - no thanks!

Still, I hope they at least keep their coke machine!
Message: Posted by: Doomo (Feb 2, 2005 11:34AM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-01 20:04, tommy wrote:
Canvey Card Sharp

If you think you will find friends at the poker tables, then that coke might not be good for your brain.

C o k e
1. In many states (in the USA) the highway patrol carries two gallons of Coke in the truck to remove blood from the highway after a car accident.
2. You can put a T-bone steak in a bowl of coke and it will be gone in two days.
3. To clean a toilet: Pour a can of Coca-Cola into the toilet bowl and let the "real thing" sit for one hour, then flush clean. The citric acid in Coke removes stains from vitreous China.
4. To remove rust spots from chrome car bumpers: Rub the bumper with a rumpled-up piece of Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil dipped in Coca-Cola.
5. To clean corrosion from car battery terminals: Pour a can of Coca-Cola over the terminals to bubble away the corrosion.
6. To loosen a rusted bolt: Applying a cloth soaked in Coca-Cola to the rusted bolt for several minutes.
7. To bake a moist ham: Empty a can of Coca-Cola into the baking pan, wrap the ham in aluminum foil, and bake. Thirty minutes before the ham is finished, remove the foil, allowing the drippings to mix with the Coke for a sumptuous brown gravy.
8. To remove grease from clothes: Empty a can of coke into a load of greasy clothes, add detergent, and run through a regular cycle. The Coca-Cola will help loosen grease stains. It will also clean road haze from your windshield. Check it out.
For Your Info :
1. The active ingredient in Coke is phosphoric acid. Its pH is 2.8. It will dissolve a nail in about 4 days. Phosphoric acid also leaches calcium from bones and is a major contributor to the rising increase in osteoporosis.
2. To carry Coca-Cola syrup (the concentrate) the commercial truck must use the Hazardous material place cards reserved for highly corrosive materials.
3. The distributors of coke have been using it to clean the engines of their trucks for about 20 years!
Now the question is, would you like a glass of water or coke?

Essex! That is a more likely explanation.

Tommy
[/quote]

Tommy, hate to break this to you... But most of this is utter twaddle...

1)I contacted 2 state police departments ( Ohio and Michigan) neither carries coke for removing blood....

2) not wanting to waste a t-bone, results unknown.

3)Tried this... no such luck at either my place or a friends apartment.

4,5,6) were busted on on a show called Mythbusters. Not true...

7) Ive seen the same recipe done with both DR.Pepper and Pepsi

8) tried this with a mechanic friends clothes... 4 batches... 2 done with coke, 2 without... no real difference and no one able to tell which was which with any degree of certainty...

As for the phosphoric acid in Coke... The concentration is so dilute as to be laughable... In fact a simple aspirin is far more reactive to proteins and lipids than a Coke is.

Some friends and I became enthusiastic amateur myth busters several years ago...
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Feb 2, 2005 09:03PM)
The one thing about Kem's and plastic cards in general, is that they all seem to have this annoying concave bend in them.

The post above me turned red and then about 4 of them disappeared. That was weird.
Message: Posted by: onezero1 (Feb 3, 2005 08:08AM)
I sometimes use a cheap plastic coated brand called eureka which I buy in the local gas station, and at other times I get waddingtons linen finish from the bookshop up the road. Anyway my point is this, I learned a bottom palm using those cheap plastic cards and the price I paid was a blister on my middle finger tip, I kid you not!So just remember plastic+ skin+ friction= BLISTER.
I ALSO have a deck of budwieser souviner cards that are about a thousand years old and still fan like a new deck of bikes...and they were free!
Message: Posted by: steve j (Feb 3, 2005 01:00PM)
If your talking about cards like streamline or steamboat, they wear and tear faster than the tally hos and bikes, however the kems are alright but I still prefer my bikes.