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Topic: Sweet & Sour, there should be an announcment
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Feb 19, 2005 04:39PM)
Can I recommend that a post be made in the Announcements forum regarding the (hopefully) temporary removal of the Sweet/Sour Forum ? This is a fairly substantial change in the Café. Lots of us rely on that forum to air our gripes or sing praises.
I hope it's back up soon. In the meantime, I had to dig some to find out what happened to it ! I just got a package today and after talking on the phone and sending emails to this vendor, I have a bone or 3 to pick !! I'd like to see what other members' experiences have been and to warn others.
Thanks !
Message: Posted by: edh (Feb 19, 2005 06:24PM)
Is this Censorship? Could it be that some of the people critized here are prominent members? OH! please say it is not so.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Feb 19, 2005 07:54PM)
Some of the more recent complaints were about a couple of the prominent advertisers, so it does make one wonder.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Feb 20, 2005 09:43AM)
I hope they return it intact. I nedd that thread to know who to give my hard earned money to.
Message: Posted by: kingsnqueens (Feb 20, 2005 04:43PM)
I’ve tried to only post when I feel there might be something of value I can add to the mix. From 50 years (wonderful years) of being a student of the craft we call MAGIC.

I feel the Magic Café’s growth is phenomenal as a common ground where Professionals, as well as Newbie can meet for the betterment of the art. I want to thank every one of you who have worked so hard to make the Café a great place to meet.

Is it perfect, NO?! If you can make everyone happy, with everything, you’ve got my vote for the Greatest Magician in the World.

There is one thing that concerns me, and that is the lack of common courtesy. I’ve seen postings degrading some of the finest minds in magic. Someone even made a comment about how untalented Dai Vernon was with some other disparaging remarks.

As a boy I was taught that, “ If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all!”

Some of the other lessons I’ve learnt in my magical life are, “ Most times when I’ve bought a piece of magic crap, some dummy (kidding) will come along and transform it into a magical masterpiece. I have even had to go out to buy the new found treasure over again.

I’ve found out that “PLEASE & THANK YOU” are truly magic words, but the greatest lesson I have learnt from magic is, “It’s the friends you make in magic” that makes it really magical.

A true friend and brother in magic Oscar Munoz says “ If you let them in the club, you have to teach them!” Let strive to encourage one another, because the thing that hurt magic the worst is having a bad magician doing bad magic.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, “Let’s learn to play well together in this enchanted life we’ve chose.”

All the Best Manyfingers (kingsnqueens)
Message: Posted by: BlackShadow (Feb 20, 2005 06:19PM)
Yes, I'd support Mystician in his viewpoint.

I wouldn't like to see a forum removed, if it was a question of constructive criticism of prominent people who may have some influence. That's not in line with reasonable freedom of speech, which doesn't square up to the ideals of The Café.
Message: Posted by: mrj (Feb 21, 2005 07:27PM)
Any word on when the Sweet or Sour forum will return?

I think it was a very valuable resource.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Feb 22, 2005 11:22AM)
This forum saved me a lot of heartache. By hearing about other Café'ers experiences, I knew who to order from and who to avoid. Hope they can bring it back intact.
Message: Posted by: Mya Angel (Feb 22, 2005 11:32AM)
Hi guys. Steve is out of town but will be back on Fri. I'll make sure he addresses this post and answers your concerns then.

Stay tuned. :D

Mya :wavey:
Message: Posted by: The Mirror Images (Feb 22, 2005 11:44AM)
Thanks Mya. I have been going crazy looking for it. I was like ok my computer is messed up. Then I decided to add a post here and then saw this. Why was it taken down?? I think that is the question that should be answered. And what else has been taken off??

Message: Posted by: The Mirror Images (Feb 22, 2005 11:45AM)
You can disregard the question I asked. Found anouther thread that answered it. Thanks

Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Feb 23, 2005 05:47PM)
For what it's worth, I am one that wouldn't mind seeing Sweet and Sour gone forever.
Message: Posted by: mrj (Feb 23, 2005 08:15PM)
On 2005-02-23 18:47, Michael Dustman wrote:
For what it's worth, I am one that wouldn't mind seeing Sweet and Sour gone forever.

Why is that?

Aside from the obvious bashing that goes on against Penguin, Ellusionist, Hank Lee, etc. I find it quite useful.
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Feb 23, 2005 09:34PM)
Well for one, I think it was too cluttered with mundane stupid posts that people would throw up without thinking.

Too many examples of...."This didn't happen, or why would the dealer do this or not do this" and nine times out of 10 they never contacted the dealer directly. I was fine when it was initially "Post a positive or negative comment about your experience" but it became a political circus. And ridiculous questions such as, "If Hocus Pocus runs a sale and things are 25% off, what would the price be." (Get a calculator or call the guys at Hocus directly. Does anyone realize the customer service they put out?)

On top of that, it kind of hacks me off how some people get protected on here, and are not held to accountability. The one thread I thought worthwhile was the ones regarding Ben Schwartz or Comedy and then the Magic (whatever his name of the day is). He obviously ripped a bunch of people off, and people try to post warnings about him. What the heck happened to those posts...I saw his post on this thread whining about the posts and they were deleted immediately. The problem is...he then comes on here under a different name, tries selling more stuff, and then old posts were not around to warn people. And eventually, a new group of people got scammed by him. Look...in all fairness to Ben, maybe he was able to clear his name, but it's hard to tell because the posts about him vanish quickly.

Look...I appreciate Steve throwing this party for us. I really do. We are in fact guests in his restaurant. But I do question the consistency on applying the rules in the Sweet and Sour forum.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Feb 23, 2005 11:11PM)
Michael, your posts always carry words of wisdom for us. Thanks for being here on the Café!!!
Message: Posted by: TrickeryMagic (Feb 24, 2005 07:53PM)
While this is a public forum, most people don't understand that it is a commercial entity. Steve can be sued for Libel. Libel: are publications in permanent form. Permanent form can be something in writing or in other permanent form. Examples are electronic communications via e-mail, newsgroups, message board, homepages are matters of permanent form.

The following was taken from an article relevant to this type of discussion:

"The Internet is taking on special relevance in the area of what is printed on it, which brings in the Laws of Libel. Very clearly, we are going to see Web operators, especially Discussion Board Managers tighten their control over what they allow to be published on line. Whilst issues abound (rights to free speech, etc) a myriad of International laws now dictate that Web Operators will probably start to apply more rigid and more rigidly controlled moderating and posting guidelines."

The following was a case that was tried in London...
Godfrey v. Demon Internet, London High Court, U.K. 3/26/99. ISP-defendant who did not remove a defamatory statement after being notified about it three times could not claim an "innocent dissemination" defense under U.K.'s 1996 Defamation Act which shields ISP's from liability as long as they have exercised "reasonable care" to prevent defamatory publication. Q.B. No. 1998-G-No. 30, March 26, 1999: British court held ISP liable as publisher for alleged defamatory material, where ISP had notice of content. Court said that ISP was a publisher and could not be protected from liability because the victim of the alleged defamation had notified the ISP and requested the material be removed. Commentators fear decision could force ISP to censor postings aggressively. ISP said it would appeal. Update April 1, 2000: Case settled. ISP agreed to pay approximately $25,000 in damages plus plaintiff's costs and fees (likely to be several hundred thousand dollars).
Another very interesting legal articale can be found at http://deptorg.knox.edu/computer/online_speech.html

While there are legitimate posts, both positive and negative, much of what was in the Sweet & Sour category was extremely defamatory.