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Topic: Instant Stooge??? Resources
Message: Posted by: scheda (Sep 26, 2002 08:14PM)
There is an effect on Kenton's Wonder Words that uses one, and it intrigued me and I would like to know of another good resource of learning about this type of thing. Anything is appreciated.


:stuckinbag:
Message: Posted by: cardguy (Sep 27, 2002 01:29AM)
Corinda's 13 Steps has a few instant stooge effects.
Message: Posted by: scheda (Sep 27, 2002 08:00AM)
I have been meaning to get that book, never have enough money though, need to find a job :bawl: Oh well. I'll look on ebay or sumthin.


:stuckinbag:
Message: Posted by: promethee (Sep 27, 2002 10:11AM)
Watching Derren's Brown lecture or live show (I guess) could be a good idea... Only demonstration, but a good resource if we think about it.
Message: Posted by: Darmoe (Sep 27, 2002 02:25PM)
Mind, Myth & Magic... studying some of the old show notes and tapes of the "Masters" (Annemann, Dunninger, Kreskin... )

Trust me... there's far too much out there!

Albeit my opinion... but if you are going to do "Mentalism" vs. "Mental Magic" STOP THINKING LIKE A MAGICIAN and do material that doesn't leave footprints in the sand and proves you're a fake... make them wonder! Your a MAGICIAN, not a game master or the Riddler!

Oh! Do keep in mind, I've used this method a few times. I just happen to loathe it and personally see that the only time it is genuinely "effective" and possibly "needed" is as a PR stunt... when you really need to blow someone's mind and get certain reactions or results.

I have a great "Card Trick" I picked up from Ted Lesley ages ago that uses an Insta-stooge... paid $35.00 for it (or something along those lines) and have used it twice in about 6 years time for reasons noted. Thus, the moral of the tale is [i][b]learn the techniques and routines that use it, but don't make it a habit... less is always more when it comes to this part of the craft[/i][/b]

Best of luck!
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Sep 28, 2002 02:47AM)
promethee,
Derren Brown's lecture has nothing to do with the Instant Stooge principle.
But, I can understand why you think there is.

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: promethee (Sep 28, 2002 06:58AM)
:question:

I don't see what it can be else: lift, reminiscence and others are, for me, instant stooges effects, even if there is some double talk involved.
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Sep 28, 2002 07:09AM)
I really don't want to get into this, so this is the last thing I will say on the subject. May I use one of Sherlock Holmes's most famous quotes: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
Do you really think you did that?

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: Alan Jackson (Sep 29, 2002 08:26AM)
The booklet "Simplicity, Audacity, and Bluff" by Val Andrews has some intriguing instant-stooge effects (including one used by Al Koran).
Message: Posted by: Codex Reader (Sep 29, 2002 01:16PM)
Ditto Darmoe!

I think it hurts our craft to do this unless you are more of a cups and balls magician working in venue.
Message: Posted by: kuffs (Sep 29, 2002 05:42PM)
Hi, for thoses of you interested in this booklet "Simplicity, Audacity, and Bluff" by Val Andrews

I will sell it for 25$ US, shipping included....

I prefer Paypal payments...

Let me know

KUFFS
Message: Posted by: Ted Lesley (Oct 13, 2002 02:09AM)
Hi fellow mentalists:
The "Instant Stooge Principle" is a very good one indeed..........BUT you can do much better! Look into your copy of the T.A. Waters book and read "AUTOMANTICARD" and you know, what I mean. In this trick, sorry, "experiment" the spectator on stage has no idea, how he did the "mindreading".

If you work in front of an audience, who everybody knows everybody AVOID DOING A SINGLE TRICK USING A STOOGE! Why? The people talk to each other and tell their colleguas later, how the "miracle" of the "mindreader" was accomplished and this is not good for your reputation!!!! In front of an audience of people, who see each other the first time, the principle CAN work MOST OF THE TIME.....BUT NOT EVERYTIME!
I can tell you, that I like to perform the "card-trick" as mentioned by our member Darmoe, but only under the right circumstances.

Presently I am working on a principle, which was only used by a few professional mentalists. I know of two only: Larry Becker and Dr. Carlyle. With this system you make a spectator to an "instant stooge" as well, but he or she HAS NOT THE SLIGHTEST IDEA, HOW IT WAS DONE!!! So the assisting spectator can`t tell anything to the audience! The principle is sure fire and you can use it for a lot of effects: Booktests, Predictions etc. Believe me, itīs a "killer" and nearly works itself.

The principle behind it all isn`t well known amongst mentalists. I am working on it since umpteen years until I found accidentally the last bit to make it perfect. I tried it out a couple of times during my engagement in Berlin`s posh revue-theater "La Vie En Rose" and it was a "Stunner" (Sorry Mr. Becker).

A master of the "Instant Stooge Principle" is the French magician DOMINIQUE. He performs occasionally in the world famous "LIDO" in Paris. He does a pickpocket routine and the "Hot Chairs" and he steals not one item! Itīs all bluff! In the "Lido" he can do this, because the audience changes at every show. Dominique is a real showman and a GREAT entertainer.

ESPecially and MAGICally Yours

TED LESLEY
Message: Posted by: Larry Becker (Oct 14, 2002 09:46PM)
I have spoken to Ted and his idea is a sensational adaptation of a unique and obscure principle. If he ever decides to share it, you'll love the audacity of it. Clever! Clever! Clever!
Message: Posted by: Ted Lesley (Oct 15, 2002 01:30AM)
Thank you for the compliment Larry!

TED
Message: Posted by: DarkKnight (Oct 15, 2002 04:52AM)
[quote]
On 2002-09-28 03:47, Yaniv Deautsch wrote:
promethee,
Derren Brown's lecture has nothing to do with the Instant Stooge principle.
But, I can understand why you think there is.

Yaniv Deautsch
[/quote]

This should be one of the golden rules of mentalism 'Don't believe Derren's BS !'. He makes quite a lot of use of instant stooges, pre-show etc.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Oct 15, 2002 08:13AM)
[quote]
On 2002-10-15 05:52, DarkKnight wrote:
This should be one of the golden rules of mentalism 'Don't believe Derren's BS !'. He makes quite a lot of use of instant stooges, pre-show etc.

[/quote]

Good advice, and probably very true about Derren. But I don't think a person should be considered and 'instant stooge' unless he or she knows about or understands his role in the deception. By this standard, neither Lift nor Reminiscience qualify as instant stooge effects.

--Christopher Carter
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Oct 15, 2002 09:21AM)
Well,i see no reason in using "Instant Stooge" in Lift or Reminiscence.
That's why I don't think he use this principle.

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: Shimi (Oct 15, 2002 10:38AM)
What books do I need to read to understand that there is no need to use a stooge in Lift or Reminiscence

:cool: :cool: :cool: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Message: Posted by: Mark Hogan (Oct 15, 2002 11:14AM)
Looking forward To Teds effect sounds very clever.

AS for reminisance and lif its a very clever stooge effect using linguistic deception, my only problem wuth them


A: Unsuitable for a small venue/private party where the volinteer may be questioned later

B: If they have seen the effect performed before, they may react to the gaff ie reminisance

Marc :nod:
Message: Posted by: Thoughtreader (Oct 15, 2002 11:59AM)
[quote]
On 2002-10-15 11:38, Shimi wrote:
What book does Christoper Carter need to read to understand that there is no need to use a stooge in Lift or Reminiscence

:cool: :cool: :cool: :confused: :confused: :confused:
[/quote]

Chris Carter said that it was NOT an instant stogge in those effects. Rather than suggesting that he read various books to know that perhaps you should just read better before jumping on one of the most knowledgable mentalists present here in the Café!!!!!
PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
http://www.stores.ebay.ca/abstagecraft
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Oct 15, 2002 12:02PM)
[quote]
On 2002-10-15 11:38, Shimi wrote:
What book does Christoper Carter need to read to understand that there is no need to use a stooge in Lift or Reminiscence

:cool: :cool: :cool: :confused: :confused: :confused:
[/quote]

If you will re-read my post, you will see that I said that neither effect qualifies as an instant stooge effect, since neither fits in the situation of the spectator being aware of their role in the deception.

Now, what books you need to quit being a jerk.

Christopher Carter
Message: Posted by: promethee (Oct 15, 2002 12:03PM)
[quote]
Good advice, and probably very true about Derren. But I don't think a person should be considered and 'instant stooge' unless he or she knows about or understands his role in the deception. By this standard, neither Lift nor Reminiscience qualify as instant stooge effects.
[/quote]
IMO, unless the spectator is stupid, he/she understands his/her role for Lift and Reminiscence. Of course, I can't be sure of what's happening , but the more I see it, the more obvious it appears to me.

Sorry, Yaniv, I don't really understand your position. But english isn't my first language, so perhaps I'm not receptive to all the linguistic subtilities of these effects.
Message: Posted by: kuffs (Oct 15, 2002 12:07PM)
Hi guys , but sorry to interupt you conversation but the effect "lifts" and "reminiscence" but I want to say this.

I have seeing mr Brown do thoses effect on lecture and also on t.v ( not exactly the same but )and this is my humble opinion but...thoses routine are not in the categories of instant stooge...

If you thinks this , it's because you don't really understand the principle behind mr Brown idea....

I am not trying to say that your conception of the principle of instant stooge is wrong...but in this case you need to re- consider this fact, because it's really more a routine base on " double-entendre " or double talk...this is what is not base on cueing a helper live...

The helper will never feel that you use it ...i know, I use thoses routines in my stage act now for manys months...

very humbly, I hope my comments is clear if not don't take it to rude , it's was not the purpose of it...

PM please if you want to discuse more....

take care

Kuffs
Message: Posted by: mclare (Oct 15, 2002 12:49PM)
Partick - can I clarify something? Do you mean you've used Derren's routines 'Lift' and 'Reminiscence' in your shows for many months? Or just routines involving a similar principle?

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: kuffs (Oct 15, 2002 12:57PM)
hi Mclare,

sorry if I was not clear enough, but your are right I use the mr Brown "lifts" routine from is book, But I have change the presentation.

And for the "Reminiscence" routine I don't use it like the original but yes, I use the same principle...

hope this clear. :)

take care

kuffs
Message: Posted by: promethee (Oct 15, 2002 02:18PM)
[quote]
On 2002-10-15 13:07, kuffs wrote:

I am not trying to say that your conception of the principle of instant stooge is wrong...but in this case you need to re- consider this fact, because it's really more a routine base on " double-entendre " or double talk...this is what is not base on cueing a helper live...

The helper will never feel that you use it ...i know, I use thoses routines in my stage act now for manys months...

[/quote]
Are you joking ?
You use these routines in your act, but do you have any direct feedback from your spectator ? I can't believe these people don't understand what's happening !
Message: Posted by: Shimi (Oct 15, 2002 04:12PM)
I am sorry for my mistake about Mr. Carter.
let me ask again
What books do I need to read so I will be able to that stuff?
Sorry again Mr. Carter

Shimi
PS
I know that I don't write very well in English, Now I know that I don't even read
so good. I will start to post in Hebrew
Message: Posted by: kuffs (Oct 15, 2002 04:35PM)
I can only answer buuy this reply....of course I am not joking !!!

And do you thinks I can have ade a carrer here in Montreal with people knowing what I am doing, of course the people don't know it...but I thinks you mix two's things instant stooge and double-talk...

i agree that most of the routine with instant stooge principle is nothing more than another tools for doing some effects, like the electric chair I did ( the Ricky Dunn routine )and in this kind of routine, yes, after all the spectator will know and understand how it's done, but it's doesn't maters,in the kind of routine I agree with you...

But in the kind of routine that Mr Brown play, the instant stooge principle is not use like you seam to understand it...is more like you do a effect for her and a completely different effects for the rest of the audience...but for the helper on stage you do not cheat, you just do what she things you have said you would do.

Do you have read the content of the first edition of " PURRE EFFECTS " ???, I thinks you will understand more what I am talking about if you have the chance to read it.

And also, do you ever try to use the instant-stooge principle in one of your show, what kind of effect you do with it ??? Because the way the instant-stooge principle is play by most of the performes , is more like the best way to achive a killer effect....

that's not it, it's realy more a tools and when you know to use it ( I am not saying, I know how to use it , by the way )you will have on your side a clever principle, thta play very strong in various place.

it's a shame I can not talk in french , because I will have more to say and also I am shure I will be more clear...sorry for that...:)

take care and PM if you want more...

kuffs
Message: Posted by: Quentin (Oct 15, 2002 05:18PM)
Derren removed the effects Lift and Reminisence from all later editions of his book Pure Effect precisely because he did not want other performers using his routines. Also because he knew most magicians would not know how they were done. And he wants to keep it that way.

I was fortunate to see one of Derren's very first performances of these routines at the IBM Llandudno convention in 1999. He fooled a lot of magicians very badly. Good for him!
Message: Posted by: ThoughtThief (Oct 15, 2002 08:12PM)
In my view, "instant stooge" effects and "double entendre" effects (ably defined by Mr. Kuffs as, "you do a[n] effect for her and a completely different effect[ ] for the rest of the audience") share a common fundamental flaw, to wit: The reaction of the volunteer is NOT the reaction that one would expect from an "innocent" volunteer (in the case of "instant stooge" effects) or from a volunteer who is experiencing the effect that is being witnessed by the audience (in the case of "double entendre" effects). It is for this reason that audience reaction to such effects invariably seems to fall a bit short.

Mentalism relies heavily for its effectiveness on the audience "feeding off" the reaction of the specific subject whose mind is being read, who is participating in the predicted event, or who is reading the thoughts of the mentalist or other audience member. I've yet to see an instant stooge or double entendre routine where the reaction of the subject was "right," or, stated differently, where there wasn't something "off" or "out of kilter" about the subject's reaction. In turn, the audience's reaction is not the same as it is for other equally well-structured, well-presented exhibitions of mentalism that do not rely on instant stooge or double entendre methods.

This phenomenon can be subtle or stark, depending on the particular routine, its structure, and the skill of the performer, but it seems unavoidable due to the very methodology underlying instant stooge or double entendre effects. In other words, that which makes the effect possible is also the effect's undoing.

And yes, I have seen Derren Brown's (and others') exceedingly clever work in this regard--including "Reminiscence"--both live and on video tape. (Bruce Bernstein and Docc Hilford come to mind as also having made noteworthy contributions on the subject.) From my perspective, at least, the very excellence of Derren's work with the double entendre methodology proves the rule: If the likes of Mr. Brown cannot achieve the same quality of audience reaction from double entendre routines as he achieves from equally excellent non-double entendre routines--compare, for example, the audience's reaction to "Reminiscence" on the London lecture video with the audience's reactions to his verbal card forces on "The Devil's Picture Book" video--then perhaps no one can. The fault is not with the routine or the performer, it is with the concept. Granted, you might very well "fool" or "puzzle" the volunteer and the audience (not to mention magicians), but I don't believe you will ever obtain the earthshaking reaction--from volunteer and audience alike--that is achieved with mentalism using other methods.

Take "Reminiscence," for example. The effect sought to be created is that a volunteer thinks of an event in her life that occurred in the past and the mentalist (and even some audience members) "picks up" on the event and numerous details concerning it. Now, one would expect the volunteer to all but scream each time a revelation of a detail is made; that is certainly how volunteers react during a Q&A routine, for example. And that is how the audience EXPECTS a volunteer to react, because that is how THEY would react and because that is HOW volunteers react at other points in the performance when information known only to them is revealed by the mentalist. But because the effect witnessed by the audience is not the effect witnessed by the volunteer, the expected reaction from the volunteer is not forthcoming--the volunteer seems not at all surprised by the revelations of the details of the event (because of the methodology, she wouldn't be)--and, in turn, the audience's reaction is (at least as I perceived it both live and on tape) tepid and somewhat confused.

I have personally given these methods--particularly double entendre--serious effort over the years, but have yet to be completely satisfied. Others may well have had better experience with this sort of thing, but for my money I think the effects sought to be achieved by these methods can be accomplished by other methods that provide a more consistent visceral reaction as between volunteer and audience--and hence a better reaction overall.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Oct 19, 2002 04:54PM)
Shimi,

I will accept that your unfamiliarity with our language led to me misinterpreting your original question. A good book to help one understand the nature of the volunteers participation in Reminiscience might be Ormond McGill's Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism.

ThoughtThief, thank you for your discussion. Your objections to the principle are perceptive, and since I've seen the effect only on Derren's lecture tape, whereas you have clearly seen it in several contexts, my comments here may not have as much validity. In the performance I saw, the use of "trance," to me at least, logically justified the character of the volunteer's responses. Plus it solved some other problems with the principle, which I suspect I shouldn't go into in any further detail on. I'm sure you know what I mean. I didn't think the audience responded poorly at all.

I recall seeing a recording of Al Koran doing his medalion effect on the Ed Sullivan Show. As the woman reads the date on the coin, she noticeably smirks. Koran plays it as if hers were in fact a look of amazement. It was a marvelous moment!

--Christopher Carter
Message: Posted by: mclare (Oct 19, 2002 08:07PM)
Derren's whole routining avoids the problem of a muted spectator response. And the reaction to it is electric - maybe that doesn't come acoss on a video tape.

Kuffs - are you happy performing variants of Lift and Reminiscence? I'm sure you're aware that the 'first edition' wasn't a publication - just a private manuscript distributed amongst a small number of magicians. He's been very clear on not wanting them to be performed and withholding them from publication. Does he know you're performing them? Or are they substantially different from what he does?
Message: Posted by: Alan Jackson (Oct 20, 2002 01:54PM)
Changing the subject slightly there are some good instant stooge ideas in Kenton Knepper's "X".
Message: Posted by: ken stokes (Oct 21, 2002 05:02AM)
[quote]Does he know you're performing them?[/quote]Well, you do now.
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Nov 26, 2002 06:33PM)
There are at least 2 routines
in corinda's "13" that are based on the subtle instant stooge Ted Lesley mentioned earlier.

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: sokarnl (Nov 28, 2002 03:50PM)
A reaction to mclare:

If derren distibutes his first editon and tells people not to use these effects in it, what is the reason for distribution?

And i think the word "distibution" is not the correct one, but the word "selling" is the correct one.

If MrKuffs has the first edition, as i know he has, (or had), then he has the right to use them.
Message: Posted by: kuffs (Nov 28, 2002 09:02PM)
Hi Sokarnl,

and thank you very much to put some light to this little point for me, because it's seems that's, some of my post vanish around here...

i can even not defend myself...some people cut me...strange in a public forum...some people have told me about this, but...

humbly....

Kuffs
Message: Posted by: Patrick Redford (Nov 30, 2002 04:00PM)
[quote]
On 2002-09-29 09:26, Alan Jackson wrote:
The booklet "Simplicity, Audacity, and Bluff" by Val Andrews has some intriguing instant-stooge effects (including one used by Al Koran).
[/quote]
I just got through reading this book, and yes it has nothing but stooge effects. Though these effects may be practical for a magician - it is not for someone who wishes to leave no trail of evidences that he may not be 'the real thing'
Message: Posted by: kuffs (Nov 30, 2002 11:45PM)
Hi magicbygeorge,

i just take the time to remember people that a stooge and a instant-stooge is completely different...

ine one case the first one would be perfect, in some others case the seconde is better..

..even in some case the instant-stooge principle, is never realise by the spectator himself, so what trace did he find , if he doesn't suspect a things himself...

but , i thinks this kind of weapons is not really like by magician....but , more appreciate by some mentalist...

bottom line... use it or not , like it or not...it's a powerful technic to have in mind...

If use wisely in the right moments at the good place, it can be a real reputation maker...thrust me..

Humbly....

Kuffs
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Dec 1, 2002 10:50AM)
I was in the audience for Derren Browns performance of "Reminiscense" in London now immortalised on video tape.In all honesty the audience reaction was very muted (the tape really captures the ambience of the occasion)but one has to bare in mind this was an audience of magicians and mentalists and you know how cool we like to appear.This performance was before any of DBs TV specials and I for one was hugely impressed by the lecture and,as previously mentioned believe the use of hypnotic trance covered the problem of the subjects muted reaction.