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Topic: Cylinder and Coins prop
Message: Posted by: magicforu (Jun 10, 2005 04:58AM)
Where can I buy good quality Cylinder and Coins prop ? I heard Cylinder made by Mr. Thomas Wayne is the best. Anyone know Mr. Wayne's web site. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 10, 2005 05:03AM)
Thomas is a Café member. You can use the search function to find his profile or one of his posts and backtrack from there. A PM to him would likely get the process started.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jun 10, 2005 05:44AM)
You can read a review of his props by clicking [url=http://www.coinvanish.com/cylinder.html]HERE[/url]
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Jun 10, 2005 12:34PM)
Do you want good quality or great quality? Thomas makes an excellent prop. For a little less money you get a very nice prop from Frank Starsinic, also here on the Café. For much more money, you get the Cadellac from Joe Porper and R. Paul Wilson. Or maybe Thomas' is the Cadillac and and Joe's is the Mercedes. Either way, lots to choose from.

Kirk
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 10, 2005 12:44PM)
Kirk, if economy or authenticity were of interest, folks would use the old cardboard props as per the original. If folks want something NICE, get something nice. The guy asked for Thomas Wayne. Open options and no comment from me.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jun 10, 2005 01:01PM)
I support and love nice looking props and will always go for them.
But, mind you, it's NOT the prop that does the magic, it's YOU..

I actually do use a bad looking and silly cardboard-container to transport some of my favourite little *routines*, and I even, when working entirely impromptu, without a jacket, just pull it out of wherever I have stored it and I never had any bad thoughts re this..but in this case it's only a *place* to store a *piece of magic* safely during transport and just to be ready anytime..
Message: Posted by: 2002 coinguy (Jun 10, 2005 01:17PM)
I have bought the magnetic Ramsay stacks from Todd Lassen . Todd highly recommended cylinder made by Frank Starsinic.On Todd's site have a direct link to Frank. I found both props are great.
Message: Posted by: nostrings (Jun 10, 2005 02:30PM)
A friend of mine has Frank Starsinic cylinder. I have a Thomas Wayne cylinder. I won't down Franks as it will do the job and does have end caps, but the Thomas Wayne cylinder is far superior IMHO.



Adam
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 10, 2005 07:56PM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-10 13:34, KirkG wrote:
Do you want good quality or great quality? Thomas makes an excellent prop. For a little less money you get a very nice prop from Frank Starsinic, also here on the Café. For much more money, you get the Cadellac from Joe Porper and R. Paul Wilson. Or maybe Thomas' is the Cadellac and and Joe's is the Mercedes. Either way, lots to choose from.

Kirk
[/quote]
It depends on the way with which you choose to perform the routine. The props from Joe and Wilson are a little different that the original stuff. SO, they are not neccessarily BETTER they are more different.

John


Posted: Jun 10, 2005 8:59pm
-------------------------------------------
[quote]
On 2005-06-10 15:30, nostrings wrote:
A friend of mine has Frank Starsinic cylinder. I have a Thomas Wayne cylinder. I won't down Franks as it will do the job and does have end caps, but the Thomas Wayne cylinder is far superior IMHO.


Adam
[/quote]
Seriously, how much can the cylinder matter? I had mine made from a local leather shop and it's perfectly fine for me so I am sure Franks is perfectly fine for anyone.

What could be better about one than the other the leather perhaps. Gold stiching?

Considering you could use a toilet paper roll...

John
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Jun 11, 2005 12:24AM)
I bought my cylinder and stack from Thomas Wayne a long time ago. It's top quality stuff. As arleady hinted, even a toilet paper roll can serve as a cylinder, but it's all comes down to personal taste and a love for gorgeous works of art that double as magical apparatus.
Message: Posted by: nostrings (Jun 11, 2005 09:13AM)
[quote]

Seriously, how much can the cylinder matter? I had mine made from a local leather shop and it's perfectly fine for me so I am sure Franks is perfectly fine for anyone.

What could be better about one than the other the leather perhaps. Gold stiching?

Considering you could use a toilet paper roll...

John
[/quote]

As far as the work needed as I said in my post both will do the job. I suppose its the differance between buying a leather coat at say Wal-mart ( which I have done) or from a store in the mall ( which I have done) the one from Wal-mart looks fine and will do the job the one from the mall doesn't do anything more but may look a little nicer. Of course I live in the country where some people would prefer the Wal-mart jacket over the mall bought jacket and that's fine. The orginal post was asking about Thomas Wayne's cylinder and from what I've seen which is only the two he's is the best.

Adam
Message: Posted by: 2003 user (Jun 11, 2005 09:55AM)
I have stack made by Todd. Todd recommend cylinder make by Frank. I go to Frank's site to have a look. I found they are looking good and will do the work as Todd said. My old one need to replace I will go with Frank.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 11, 2005 10:30AM)
I can't believe this discussion over apples versus oranges versus grapes.

Thomas has FINE props in wood, leather and metal.

Frank offers good workable and quality props.

Ramsay used CHEAP props as a kind of in-joke about being a stingy Scot.
Message: Posted by: Jeffrey Cowan (Jun 13, 2005 07:24PM)
Another source for wonderful cylinders is Bill Gusius in Arizona. A recent Genii contained a current address for him in Richard Kaufman's Genii Speaks column if I recall correctly. My sense is that price-wise he is somewhere in between Thomas Wayne (another FABULOUS craftsman) and Frank, whose work I have not seen and so can't comment on.

Bill can make a cylinder in either a shorter height or the taller style that John Carney favors.

- Jeffrey Cowan
Message: Posted by: doug brewer (Jun 14, 2005 10:34AM)
Mr. Cowan should know - he does one of THE sweetest handling's of the Ramsay Cylinder & Coins performed in the traditional way (4 silver dollars, no ]'s)
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jun 14, 2005 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-14 11:34, doug brewer wrote:
Mr. Cowan should know - he does one of THE sweetest handling's of the Ramsay Cylinder & Coins performed in the traditional way (4 silver dollars, no ]'s)
[/quote]

:applause: to Mr. Cowan for your decision to use the 4 silver dollar method.
I'd like to see it some time.

Frank
Message: Posted by: Jeffrey Cowan (Jun 18, 2005 04:54PM)
To follow up on my prior post:

I spoke today with Bill Gusius, who advised that he is open to doing as much custom work for magicians as his time and health permit. Bill is not a computer guy, and asks that people interested in having him make a leather prop (Ramsay cylinder, cone for Leipzig routine, etc.) should telephone him in Arizona at (480) 218-0376.

My understanding is that Bill is an early to rise, early to bed person, so I'd recommend against late night calls. . .
Message: Posted by: Magic-Daniel (Jun 18, 2005 07:37PM)
Jeff.

How much does his cylinder cost?

Daniel
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 18, 2005 08:12PM)
Thomas Wayne makes some beautiful props...expensive and beautiful...if you are looking for a pro prop you WONT go wrong with his stuff

Also, Frank Starsini and associates, make some great stuff and they are very workable props.

I'm a street worker so I know I'm going to drop stuff and it will get scratched so for me I wouldn't buy Thomas's stuff...his stuff is really artful .....if you work indoors then Thomas's would be fantastic...

For me just durable equipment is what I want...


Have you seen my "new" servante....fantastic.

Thanks Frank

koz
Message: Posted by: markyeager (Jun 18, 2005 08:15PM)
I have seen and handled the Lassen Magnetic Stack and I loved it. The quality is fantasic( As is everything that Todd makes). I'm sure that others will rip off this innovation (the Magnetic Stack), But Todd was the first I believe to improve this classic. I'm sure that John Ramsey would love Todd's Stack!
Message: Posted by: Thomas Wayne (Jun 20, 2005 12:16AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-18 21:12, tedb wrote:[b]
Thomas Wayne makes some beautiful props...expensive and beautiful...if you are looking for a pro prop you WONT go wrong with his stuff

[...]
I'm a street worker so I know I'm going to drop stuff and it will get scratched so for me I wouldn't buy Thomas's stuff...his stuff is really artful .....if you work indoors then Thomas's would be fantastic...

For me just durable equipment is what I want...
[...][/b]
[/quote]

tedb,
If it's really durability you're worried about then you can't do better than my newest cylinder. The current version uses a composite core (space-age material) between the inner and outer layers of leather that is virtually indestructible. In fact, I will be happy at any time to put even money - up to say $500? - comparing my cylinder against any other maker's currently on the market.

What we'll do, Ted, is we'll take one of Frank's cylinders and one of mine - you can choose any one from my table at any convention I'm at, and we'll put them side by side on the floor and then stomp on them. Stomp 'em dead flat. I guarantee - and put my money where my mouth is - that my cylinder will spring back, ready for immediate use, in far better condition than Frank's. Wanna take that bet, Ted?

As for the cost of my props, you get what you pay for. I'll happily put my workmanship up against ANYTHING Frank Starsinic retails. Do let me know if you want to bet on [i]that[/i].

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 20, 2005 03:46AM)
Thomas makes excellent props, but many of the famous "makers" never made props on their own. For example, Danny Dew did not spin his own cups. These were done for him by three different companies. However, he was very careful about the polishing, the plating and the other steps that go into finishing the cups.

I have gotten a lot of leather work done through Frank. I've never had a problem with any of it.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 20, 2005 09:29AM)
I just don't understand you Thomas, I told the truth....your props are great! what more can I say...I'm not going to say buy only Thomas Wayne's stuff because Franks stuff is bad!....your stuff is fricking beautiful, just like I said....Thomas, you make great stuff. I said nothing but great things about your work and will continue...all I said was, I would buy the less expensive version of the props because I would likely damage them in the environment that I work in...your wands can't be any nicer....awesome, but I would drop them...all the time so they would get beat up....Frank's wands are also nice but less money, they aren't as nice but less money so if I scratched them it wouldn't hurt my feelings as much.

I wish you luck with all that you do.

koz henry tedbg
Message: Posted by: Stuart Hooper (Jun 20, 2005 09:56AM)
Right, well, this thread is good, it gives you an idea of what sort of quality props you are going to get, and what sort of people you are buying from.

In a thread were people are praising and criticising both sides, I'm impressed by the restraint and lack of defensive rhetoric by at least one of the crafstmen involved!
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 20, 2005 01:04PM)
I have no complaint about any of the Thomas Wayne products that I own. They are very well made. I seriously doubt that I will ever use my silver/ivory/abalone/ebony wand in a street performance. I would certainly drop it, and then I would be very ticked at myself. But that wand is beautiful and is worth every penny that Thomas charged for it. Likewise, I would probably not use the ebony and ivory drama masks wand I got from him in a street performance, for precisely the same reason. I also wouldn't use my gold or silver Sherwoods in that context. Props like that deserve better treatment than what we give them on the street. They need a carpet to land on, for example. On the street, I would use one of Tom Frank's ironwood wands or one of Eric Evans' bois d'arc wands. They are made for the purpose.

Thomas makes some of the best props in the business. And pro's can't afford cheap props. But there are great alternatives, and I think Frank's cylinder is a great alternative for someone who is a street performer. I have a couple of Presley Guitar's coin cylinders. I would never use them on the street. Too valuable -- too risky.

But something that everyone needs to consider is this: no propmaker ever increased his sales or his popularity by knocking another propmaker's products in a public forum. It's one thing for a customer to give a review. Chances are, it will be unbiased. If anything, it might even be lenient, especially if the reviewer has a certain amount of knowledge of what goes into making a prop.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 20, 2005 01:15PM)
Lol.....right on bill

isn't that what I said?

koz
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jun 20, 2005 01:15PM)
I like using a rolled up dollar bill.
.....
.......
.........

That's it, no "buy this guy's stuff because...", or "don't buy that guy's stuff because..." Just a rolled up dollar.

Simple, functional, practical, easily replaceable, and inexpensive.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 20, 2005 01:31PM)
See! genius.....

look it, great looking props are wonderful...but I want a prop that if I drop it I wont feel bad...i would cry if I dropped waynes prop...and I'm a grown man and I would look stupid in front of all of those people

koz
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 20, 2005 01:38PM)
Is it possible to get glass wands make like ruperts pearls so you can bang then but if you hit the tip straight on they will shatter?

Anyone considered doing the trick with a mirror in the cylinder to manage the appearance/vanish using an almost transparent clinder?

How about a laytex (soft) gem for the marker in the trick?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jun 20, 2005 04:29PM)
I personally prefer..

A cylinder. 4 coins. A wand. A cork.
No more, no less ... more or less.


There's something quite satisfying (for me) about
doing it this way. I'm not saying it's the most magical,
nor the most difficult, nor anything else.

I've thought about alterations but in the end,
I just like doing it that particular way.

Frank
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jun 20, 2005 09:50PM)
Frank, It usually helps to have a coin stack and extra cork to go along with that list...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 20, 2005 09:54PM)
It's okay Dan, some of use have had non-gaffed versions of the trick in print since... well long ago. ;) I suggest the wine glass inverted with a silk hankerchief covering to make a nice pedastal too.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jun 21, 2005 01:43AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-20 22:50, Dan Watkins wrote:
Framk, It usually helps to have a coin stack and extra cork to go along with that list...
[/quote]

Dan, It sounds like you still do it the old fashioned way. :)
Actually I was just trying to avoid exposur*, as per the Café rules.

The keen observer will notice I did hint that there was something missing on the inventory list, hence, the
"... more or less"
comment.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jun 21, 2005 08:27AM)
I know Frank, I was just poking fun.

Jon, I have seen ungimmicked versions myself. I haven't seen Wesley James' version, but I hear his is ungimmicked as well.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 21, 2005 04:02PM)
I din't question the durability...i said I would not want to have something that beautiful get scratched on the streets of new orleans or chicgo or where ever...

koz
Message: Posted by: Paul Sherman (Jun 21, 2005 04:30PM)
I went back and reread tedb's post. I don't see any implication that Thomas Wayne's props aren't durable. It sounds to me like all he meant was:

1. He work in an environment where his props will likely become damaged.
2. That being the case, he'd rather use a prop that he won't feel bad about damaging.
3. He would feel bad about damaging a beautiful, expensive prop, like the ones Thomas Wayne makes.
4. Given these facts, his only concern is durability and it's not worth it to him to pay additional money for Thomas Wayne's level of beauty/craftsmanship
5. For people who do work in environments less rough on props, he would unhesitatingly recommend Thomas Wayne's stuff.

That's "***ing with faint praise"? Because it sounds to me like a thoughtful and glowing review from someone who could just have easily said "I don't think Tom's stuff is worth buying" and left it at that. It doesn't in any way call the durability of Tom's stuff into question, it just says that they aren't right for him. If John Ramsay himself had said "Thomas Wayne makes a beautiful cylinder, no one could go wrong buying it, but it doesn't work for me because my patter is built around using this cardboard cylinder" would that also be "left-handed"?
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jun 21, 2005 05:35PM)
Did I mention that I use a dollar bill? Oh yes, I see that I did :hysteric:

I'm laughing quietly as I infer one or two things from the various implications in this thread... Did I use those words correctly in that sentence?

BTW Koz, the dollar bill idea is a product of pure genius, but unfortunately not mine. ;)

I'm not sure who gets the nod for that one.

Best,

Mike
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jun 21, 2005 06:59PM)
A dollar bill was used by Vernon, as described in the Art Of Close-Up Magic.
Don't know if he came up with it first but a routine is there as well.
I wouldn't worry about a dollar bill getting scratched but it might blow away
if used outdoors.


My cylinders are made in california from special cows which are fed special grains and all kept penned on the north-north-west side of the hill (for obvious reasons) and the end result is what widely known in the cylinder business as... well,
the finest "corinthian cylinder leather" available.

Each cylinder is polished with "Polyraz-ma-taz" with special polishing rags from the far east. The best available.
They are then spit-shined by a group of discalced carmelite nuns in new jersey, then shipped back to the united states for quality control before they are given the cylinder seal of approval.

The center of the cylinder is then infused with special gases for that oh so wonderful touch. And though it might be exposure I'll let you in on the secret... There's nitrogen at about 78%. Oxygen, 21%, and other gasses at 1%. Among the others are carbon dioxide, about 0.03%, noble gases, about 0.9% and varying amounts of water vapour depending on the weather. You heard right. Noble Gasses. For when you perofrm for kings and queens. I spare no expense!

Yes, you got it!!! There's AIR in the middle of each and every one.


And now I suggest we all go to Kozmo's house for a keg party.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 21, 2005 07:49PM)
Lol FRANK!!!!!!!

Paul Sherman, you hit it right on the nose. I still recommend his products....

koz
Message: Posted by: Close.Up.Dave (Jun 21, 2005 09:49PM)
I have the Ramsay write up of this trick but have never seen it performed by anyone. Does anyone know of an online video where I can see it performed?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jun 21, 2005 10:23PM)
I think that John Carney's "Up Close And Far Away" has a great version.
The video is available right now on ebay.

I don't know who's selling it but I was going to pick it up to have an extra.
Now I won't. You can have it.

The video is a key buy. Lots of great magic by a master.
It's performance only but ... well, there's no but.
It's a great video.

Also includes his Miser's Dream, great selection of card tricks,
and lots of etc.

Good luck and happy bidding :)

It's also available on Carney's "Carney on Ramsay" DVD which has the explaination.
The Up Close... performance is live at the magic castle, which I prefer.

Tim Conover has a version on the Mullica Bash video.

Those are the only "commercially available" published versions I know of that are
close to the original.


Doug Brewer does a version on his Unexpected Visitor DVD.
Mike Gallo does one on his Siamese Coins Video.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Jun 22, 2005 09:21AM)
Hi Thomas,

I've followed this and other threads regarding your props. I do not own anything manufactured by you, though I have seen your work. I think you are wasting your time defending work that speaks beautifully for itself. Those who recognize the value of quality props seek out the craftsmen capable of producing them. I doubt that you'll ever want for customers...

When I needed quality props for several items I sought out Charlie Miller's "secret weapon", Bill Gusias. It was difficult to contact Bill, and harder still to get him to make anything for me. However, I was persistent, and had Charlie on my side, so I finally got what I needed. He made me the most beautiful Cones for the Stack of Quarters, and for Vernon's Ball and Cone, that I have ever seen. I still have them. And once I had them, everyone who saw them wanted one. I must have ordered a dozen of each for friends. Of course, this was before there were all the custom guys there are today. My point is that your time is better spent making magic, than defending it here. People who appreciate quality will seek it out, no matter the cost. Build it and they will come...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 22, 2005 09:46AM)
Paul, I have retracted nothing because I meant it exactly as I have spoken...you got it right and thomas wayne didn't.

what mr wayne wants me to say is, don't buy any prop other than his because his is the best....but I'm not going to say that...you can do this routine with a rolled up dollar bill and get the same or possibly a better reaction...nothing tricky about a dollar bill but I have heard about those "magic props"


so I no longer endorse thomas waynes stuff...i think it should be done with a dollar bill BRILLANT! :)


kozmo
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 22, 2005 11:45AM)
Reading this thread gave me an idea for a novel version of the prop. Needs to be made from octopus tentacles to give it that extreme Chthulu look, Probably needs a matching cap and perhaps a wand made of ivory that resembles a miniature human bone with one end carved into something oceanic.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jun 22, 2005 11:48AM)
Sounds really cool man!

lol
too nice for the streets though
koz