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Topic: A poor misunderstanding
Message: Posted by: barkmagicman (Jun 12, 2005 02:06PM)
There is a post that talks about the mean nature of professional mentalists a little further down in this thread. The thread criticizes pro's as being stuck up, or snobbish. I've spent a lot of time doing magic and mentalism, meeting with other performers (people who both make a living with it, and make it a living to do it) studying, and creating effects. To me, it doesn't seem fair to call a professional mindreader stuck up because he doesn't want to converse with lesser performers. To me it makes perfect sense, but I had to learn that understanding the hard way. Usually lesser performers want hard learned wisdom for free or from an effect. In fact a few people even go as far to say that mentalism is easy and that anybody can attain a high level of skill rather quickly. A quote from the earlier thread states,

[quote]This may be because there are technically (read that again before arguing!...Technically) less moves etc. in mentalism and it would be easier for you to catch up to their level of performance. (They are scared of you taking their work).
[/quote]
What the ****...Do you actually think that because you are 'technically' refined you are a good performer. A good performamce comes from understanding and interaction with an audience. You should always do great effects, but they don't have to be techinically demanding, take for instance in the world of the prof. magi. One of my favorite examples is Mike Finney. One of Mikes most powerful routines is the cut and restorn rope. It is the same effect in every beginners book, but he makes it magical and entertaining. So that shows that the above quoted person has no idea as to what he is talking about. I imagine this post arose from the comments Max Maven said when talking about mentalism and circus. How people that like circus and play with it are barely allowed to talk to the real pros, and that is how it should be in magic and mentalism. I agree with him. I am not just saying this in mentalistic ideals (i'm pretty sure I just made a word up...) but also in magic. They should make all conventions like Fechters, invitation only, that way you don't have some hackneyed untalented guys who call themselves pros because they know how a trick is done. [b]Having the knowledge and technical skill to do a trick doesn't make you a performer[/b] It makes you the annoying uncle who pulls quarters from ears. The power of the trick emanates from a performer.

It's like the shower scene in psycho, it's powerful not because it's violent, but because it's unexpected and leaves you with no one to relate it. It's psychologically and dually timed. I would like to keep going on this point, but I have a meal to cook (baklava is a b*tch to make, it's like some sort of cooking alchemy (by the way, I know I spelled the dish wrong, I don't know how to spell it)).

I'll leave off on a quote, and hopefully my post will be followed with strong arguements from both sides. (I'm stating my opinion, I respect other opinions and wish to hear them. It's from understanding all sides that we become wiser, so please post. If you disagree with me, I'm not saying your wrong, just wrong in my opinion).

"look at her, she thinks because she is here in oz, she belongs here.."
-wicked
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Jun 12, 2005 11:08PM)
I resemble this remark, I'm changing though. Every performance brings nuances and "EXPERIENCE" that can only be gained from life "EXPERIENCE" this is what makes a pro a pro.

TTFN,
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 12, 2005 11:43PM)
To refuse to speak with someone solely because they are less experienced/knowledgeable/famous seems to me to be just bad manners and an exercise in narcicism.

There are times when one is too busy, tired or otherwise involved to be able to talk at length with someone who is interested in what we do, but to brush someone off because we're a "pro" and they're not is elitist horsepucky.

All it takes is a minute or two, a little patience, and an open mind. You don't have to give up any information you don't want to give up, and this can be handled gently and in a way that tells the person asking too much that they need to be less forward.

The person that you take the time to speak with will remember you kindly, and speak well of you to others. the one you tell to shove off will bad mouth you until the day they die.

- entity
Message: Posted by: ChEeKy_MoNkEy (Jun 13, 2005 07:47PM)
Entity, liked your post. IMO, full of common sense, wisdom and 'good' understanding, and of course there's the old cliche - "be careful who you upset on the way up - you'll probably meet them on the way down". As you say...a little patience, an open mind and, maybe not forgetting everyone has to start somewhere. To my mind a 'true' professional is someone who never forgets these things and does'nt have the need to 'come across' as elitist.

barkmagicman, you say:-

"To me, it doesn't seem fair to call a professional mindreader stuck up because he doesn't want to converse with lesser performers."

Sounds to me like a contradiction in terms. You say converse with 'lesser performers', doesn't that sound stuck up...if not a little pompous? What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean people starting out? Do you mean people who are 'not as good' as their peers?

I realize I'm singling out this one sentence from your post, but for me, it seems to sum up your attitude.
Message: Posted by: scottasf (Jun 13, 2005 10:30PM)
I can't talk with you as I am not up to your caliber. Professionals like you intimidate me. I am truly scared to ask your opinion as I feel you will ridicule me for just even breathing the same air. I'm not worthy!!

Magically Thine,

Scott
Message: Posted by: barkmagicman (Jun 14, 2005 02:39PM)
Listen, I didn't want to start a sarcasm war, but it seems some people didn't see that one.

[quote]I cant talk with you as I am not up to your caliber. Professionals like you intimidate me. I am truly scared to ask your opinion as I feel you will ridicule me for just even breathing the same air. I'm not worthy!!
[/quote]
Once again, don't you have anything relevant to say, or do you just want to hide behind sarcasm due to the lack of a real opinion or thought?

As for the lesser performers, that was a poorly chosen term, I should have said something more along the lines of competent performers. I figure anyone can buy the books, the tricks, and say the patter, but it takes a true performer to know where the lines are draw,where they stop, and the courage to competence to know when to cross them.

I think Max once said, you can measure a performer by his pauses.
I like that.
I also believe that you can measure a performer from the inspiration he draws from things outside the magic/mental world.

[quote]the wise with the wise, the dumb with the dumb, that's the only way there can be balance.
-Plato
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 15, 2005 12:41AM)
Plato also thought that sex was unhealthy. I think THAT'S dumb.

So who shall decide who is wise and who is dumb? In Plato's world formal eductation = wisdom, hence his concept of the Philosopher King. In the real word, we've all seen some very wise people who never got much formal education, and have also encountered some pretty dumb people with PHD's.

Education does not necessarily make you wise in all things. It just makes you educated in whatever discipline you've chosen to study. While we're quoting Plato, here are a couple of his that you've obviously missed:

[quote]All men are by nature equal, made all of the same earth by one Workman; and however we deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince. - Plato
[/quote]
and

[quote]You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters. - Plato
[/quote]

-entity
Message: Posted by: teejay (Jun 15, 2005 03:55AM)
I've learned a lot from this thread about the REAL meaning of life.
Keep up the good work lads.
TJ
:)
Message: Posted by: barkmagicman (Jun 15, 2005 01:16PM)
Glad to see someone has read the works of the great man.
But let us not forget some of lifes wisdom filled lessons.

[quote]
It's hard not being the king when it's you in the situation
-Frost
[/quote]
As for the sex thing, Plato saw sex as only being true when between a little man and a boy, him and...(can't remember the guys name, to hard to spell) managed to agree on that...kind of weird. (What this has to do with magic...mentalism I could understand...lol...so it's not actually that funny...)

By the way

[quote]Not all men are created equal, that's a lie. If you think I'm crazy, walk down the poor side of town with a sandwich and watch the beggars stare."
-Yeats
[/quote]
As for the topic that was the original point of this thread.
[quote]
Man goes long ways, only to come back the wrong ways, finding he never had left"
-Plato
[/quote]
but most importantly, in the wisdom of the greats
[quote]equality....ha, your a fool.[/quote]
Amarck spoken to Einstein.
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 15, 2005 08:34PM)
... and perhaps one we can all live by:

[quote]Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.
[/quote]
- entity
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 15, 2005 09:57PM)
That's it, everbody needs a cookie. Any suggestions for a typewritten confabulation mechanics?
Message: Posted by: ChEeKy_MoNkEy (Jun 15, 2005 10:03PM)
Entity wrote:-

[quote] So who shall decide who is wise and who is dumb? In Plato's world formal eductation = wisdom, hence his concept of the Philosopher King. In the real word, we've all seen some very wise people who never got much formal education, and have also encountered some pretty dumb people with PHD's. [/quote]

Very true. Another quote along those lines:-

[quote]"wisdom is not a product of schooling, but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it"
- Einstein
[/quote]
Maybe another one we should all remember from time to time, ;).

[quote]Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt.[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Trois (Jun 16, 2005 08:19AM)
I'll put it like this. How many times has a person of lessor ability than "thyself" showed you something which fooled you , intrigued you, or really got you thinking? I'm sure it has happened to all of us. There are things to learn from everyone. You can always cut it short if you wish but stopping to smell the ROSES applies to all fields. Not too many start at the top. cheers, Trois
Message: Posted by: Drewmcadam (Jun 16, 2005 05:30PM)
I'm a full-time pro... and I'M talking to you. But then, I'll talk to ANYBODY!

:)

BEST WISHES,

dREW mCaDAM
hEY - I MAY BE A pRO, BUT eVEN I CAN LEAVE MY cAPS lOCK ON!
Message: Posted by: barkmagicman (Jun 16, 2005 06:02PM)
I've always liked the people that say
"tis better to let people think your dumb, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." (and all its different spinoffs)
Seems they lack true compliability to both the written and spoken word. And instead of having something brialliant to write or to respond to, you fall back on overspoken rederic...sigh.
As for Mr. Trois, you obviously must be an amateur because you base your skills on as your say "fooling." I haven't been, "fooled" in a long time, but I've been amazed, intersperesed in plots and monologues, and completely astounded at people's presence.

As to Mr. Townsend, I would love a cookie, are you taking requests or, are they already made.

As to Mr Mcadam THE GOd forSAkeN CapS KeY IS tHE HaRDest ThinG To MASTer.

I make it my life to be professionally unpolite.
-vonnegut
Message: Posted by: entity (Jun 16, 2005 06:23PM)
That bark fellow wrote: <I've always liked the people that say
"tis better to let people think your dumb, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." (and all its different spinoffs)
Seems they lack true compliability to both the written and spoken word. And instead of having something brialliant to write or to respond to, you fall back on overspoken rederic...sigh.>

In my previous post, I was quoting your friend Plato when I wrote: <Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. >

In the end, we must all behave as we think appropriate. I still believe that good manners are more worthy of admiration than are gruffness and affecting an air of superiority, and so I try to treat others accordingly.

- entity
Message: Posted by: ChEeKy_MoNkEy (Jun 16, 2005 09:37PM)
Barkmagicman wrote:-

[quote] I've always liked the people that say
"tis better to let people think your dumb, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." (and all its different spinoffs)
Seems they lack true compliability to both the written and spoken word. And instead of having something brialliant to write or to respond to, you fall back on overspoken rederic...sigh.
[/quote]
Sigh...well for starters that 'quote' was not directly aimed at you, or anyone in particular - I was just 'getting into the spirit of things' with the quotes. However, pot, kettle and black springs to mind as you don't seem adverse to posting a few quotes yourself, sir :). BTW - is compliability a word?

My thoughts on the original post remain. Manners cost nothing. Patience is a virtue (that's a hard one, especially when tired, lol). Generosity of spirit is something that we either have, or learn to have - after all, you're only as good as your audience/public think you are. IMO, these of some of the attributes 'true' professionals have - or acquire.

barkmagicman - in your most recent post you say - "I make it my life to be professionally unpolite.".

May I refer you back to your original post - where you say - "There is a post that talks about the mean nature of professional mentalists". I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what the point of your original post was?
Message: Posted by: teejay (Jun 20, 2005 12:38PM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-16 22:37, ChEeKy_MoNkEy wrote:
Barkmagicman wrote:-
May I refer you back to your original post - where you say - "There is a post that talks about the mean nature of professional mentalists". I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what the point of your original post was?
[/quote]

Don't be a spoil sport
This isn't a complete load of rubbish, it's just different
LOL
TJ
:)
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jun 20, 2005 03:23PM)
How do novices learn? By example of the more experienced performer. No one should snub anyone.
Message: Posted by: Waters (Jun 20, 2005 07:05PM)
No snubbing please. Just discerning disinclusion. I am a empasssioned novice (if that's what you want to call me). If one of you feels so inclined, please continue to speak (or write, you know!!!). If not, thanks anyway. I know all of your secrets anyway.. I can really read minds!!!! I can hear all of your thoughts even now... could you turn it down a decible or two. Just kidding you all have been collectively great.