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Topic: Two very-newbie questions about cards
Message: Posted by: moose (Jul 19, 2005 06:54PM)
1 - What is a pass? Well, ok, I know you're not allowed to tell me on this forum. So, instead, where can I learn the pass? A video download would be ideal but a recommended DVD or book would be great also.

2 - Is it common to damage cards? I managed to tear a card while trying to back-palm it. How much are they supposed to bend for that, anyway? Is there a recommended brand or similar (because another deck of cards I have seems to be stronger and has never had a problem with doing that?)
Message: Posted by: blazes816 (Jul 19, 2005 07:06PM)
2- I've destroyed at least a card gross. (Thats what I call it. It's not a real amount it's 52 decks of cards.) I use bikes but that's 'cuz that's what they have at walmart.
Message: Posted by: JohnLamberti (Jul 19, 2005 10:45PM)
I don't think I'm giving anything away here by saying...grab a book my friend.

Start with Royal Road to Card Magic. That should keep you occupied for a while. It's a good place to start.
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Jul 20, 2005 12:20AM)
Why would you want to learn the pass? if you are a begginer you should not do that! there are many other steps before you come to the pass I think..even some proffesional magicians avoid the pass.its difficult to learn and many other things can be used to substitude the pass..but its great if you have mastered it though..so it will come to you later.
I use bycicle deck coz I like it when many magicians I see in dvd or performance also uses a bycicle..its just a great feeling to see Michael Ammar using a bycicle and you too perform with it rite..i don't know
Message: Posted by: moose (Jul 20, 2005 08:39AM)

Thanks for your reply.

As to "why would I want to learn the pass?" - I don't know! ;) Since I don't know what anything is, I can't tell what it's used for, so I'm just trying things and practicing what I can get my head around ;)
Message: Posted by: Corey Harris (Jul 20, 2005 08:52AM)
I personally would learn other card techniques and practice those until they are perfect before moving onto the Pass. The pass is a very difficult control to learn and use, I have been working on it for about 8 months now and have finally gotten it up to performance standards. I do agree with John though, Get royal road to card magic. It is a great book and will teach you moves and effects for each slieght you learn.
Message: Posted by: sjdavison (Jul 20, 2005 09:12AM)
Yes, third for Royal Road. Might as well add to that the Encyclopedia of Card tricks (Hugard and Braue), as it is cheap also.

If, after that, you want to learn from the DVD format, the the Ammar Easy to MAster Card Miracles is a good place. But grasp the basics from those books first.

Regarding the pass, I think do start learning it now, contrary to what the others say. Do not use it for performance, but practising it will increase your dexterity, and will give you a head start. But it is not an essential sleight, focus instead on PRESENTATION, and entertaining your audience, rather than worrying about using particular sleights.

Above all, enjoy!

Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Jul 20, 2005 10:06AM)
Let's just say the pass allows you to maintain control of the location of a card and keep it at that. ( I hope that is vague enough). Unless you are a hard core card worker you may never use the pass in your life. There are many workarounds a person can learn to do what is accomplished by the pass. They look very natural and above suspicion, the pass on the other hand, if done badly always looks like you just did something. I agree with Royal Road as a good starting place. Richard Kaufman publisher of Genii does a wicked pass. The only version of a pass I was able to achieve was, "Hey baby, what's your sign?" and I wasn't very good at that one either!

As far as back palming if you are trying to produce large numbers of cards, some of the professionals use a card that is highly pliable and thinner which allows them more latitude, then again many performers use standard cards. Plan on buying lots and lots of cards.

Looks like you have chosen your path in magic - may you have the best of luck.
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 20, 2005 01:40PM)
A tip to you: Read [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=59324&forum=41&51]this[/url] first, so you know a little bit about what you should learn. Then I suggest, as the rest here does, that you buy a book (the books mentioned are inexpensive), and find a trick which you wish to learn. Then try to learn the sleigts that you need to do the effect.

Preferrably start out with sleightless tricks just to practice doing magic :)
Message: Posted by: moose (Jul 20, 2005 06:35PM)
Ummm, have I "chosen my path"? That's scary. I just learned card tricks because they're what I knew when I was a kid and I've got lots of decks of cards around (friends play poker a lot)

How much is a card supposed to bend on a backpalm? I guess it depends how big your hands are, and I've often wondered if mine were too small.. and producing large numbers of cards? I'm still getting my head around doing just one. ;)

Scanning for Royal Road books now - thanks! (Why do I keep thinking "Royal Rainbow"?)
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Jul 20, 2005 10:59PM)
Didn't mean to scare you, it is just you are asking about some things in card magic that are pretty advanced so I thought card magic was your choice in magic.
There is already several threads regarding small hands. Do a search, you will find them very interesting.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Jul 21, 2005 12:07AM)
I think you are making yourself scared moose..i mean you make me scared when you talk about back palming..palming and pass....i have been into magic for about a year and 95 percent I practice card tricks..but I have never gotten into even one of those things you mentioned..i have talked alots about this to the Café members and none of them reccomend me to learn palming or passes..all they told me was get a good book and if you have extra money get some dvd..there are a lots of things to learn and required to be mastered..ex double lifts,false cut,different kind of shuffles,card controlling....and many more really. go step by step..get the royal road to card magic..
Message: Posted by: Rhabarber (Jul 21, 2005 04:56AM)
The palm can be something very useful. But I wouldn't recommend to learn it as one of the first sleights. As jack said, there's plenty other things to learn first. You'll be able to do some very cool tricks, just by using the dl or some controlling skills. Then, when you manage these basic things, try to palm a card.
And the pass - oh well, I wouldn't mind about it.

Start with the simple things. If you want to climb the highest mountain at the very beginning, you're bound to fail, and that will only make you lose fun and interest in card magic.
Message: Posted by: Corey Harris (Jul 21, 2005 08:37AM)
I don't agree with not learning Palming. Back palming isn't really nessicary unless you are going to be doing manipulations such as productions of random cards. But standard palming is extremley benificial. I have been into magic for over 15 years. Just last year though I started hitting the slieghts. Palming was one of the first 5 things that I learned, And I use it all the time.
Message: Posted by: pedrothegreat (Jul 21, 2005 05:37PM)
Being new to card magic also I can recommend learning palming. It takes a bit of practice but doesn't take too long (in the grand sceme of things) to get it to performable standard. However it can be used for some really great effects!

Good luck with your pursuit in magic, it takes a lot of practice but it is all worth it when you get those killer reactions :)
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jul 22, 2005 05:32PM)
The pass or the shift is a way to shift the deck after the cut in a game of cards. magicians use it and it is called the pass and if your interest is card magic and palming etc. I suggest that you start with books like - Royal Road to Card Magic, Expert Card Technique, Erdnase - Expert at the card table - and the Card Magic of LePaul.

These books have the answers that have about card magic. And should keep you busy for quite a few days if not years!

I also have video of me doing the turn over pass at my web site below.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jul 22, 2005 05:36PM)
Once upon a time a very busy doctor came to a great magician and said, "I want to learn card magic, but I am very busy. Teach me the good stuff." The great magician taught him some relatively simple things and sent him on his way. The doctor came back the next week and did these things, flawlessly and said: "Too easy. I am very busy. Teach me the hard stuff." The great magician relented and taught him the classic pass and how to back palm.

The next week, the doctor returned and performed these difficult sleights extremely well.

The doctor, reportedly, was Doctor Jacob Daley, who went on to become one of the original contributors to Stars of Magic series.

Sometimes, one learns best what one is taught first. Who is to say that there really is a ranked order of what card sleights should be learned?

There is an old proverb: "If you want something done, give it to a busy person."

The question is - are YOU a busy enough person?

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jul 22, 2005 05:44PM)
Great post Lee!
Message: Posted by: funny_gecko (Jul 22, 2005 09:05PM)
I would reccomend royal road and ofcourse card college :D
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Jul 22, 2005 09:11PM)
Moose ... you might find some of the Hugard Books in the used section for under $5. I got a copy of Erdnase's Expert at the Card Table for $1.50 used! Bishthemagish mentioned Erdnase, and I'll second that suggestion. Erdnase calls the pass a "shift" ; but it's all there first published in 1902!.
As for the back palm problems, you're going to wear the cards out. Get used to it. Perhaps you're not 'preparing' the cards. You can buy prepared cards (eg Nielsen) OR you can bend the hell out of them, press them between boards, powder them, etc (a bit like cooking,.. to the taste). If you got dough, you might buy Jeff McBride's card manips videos which describe this in much more detail. have fun!
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Aug 4, 2005 01:30AM)
Sorry not many agreed with me about palming..atleast many agreed pass is too extreme for begginers..only that I don't do a palm..or have never tried..i feel it takes too much guts to just do that.well any way the main thing is a book.it will teach by the level or difficulties..so you will have a good flow. get a book..i recommend royal road..and get ONE DVD..dont waste your money buying lots of those stuff..practice and do all the tricks you learn perfectly..by time you accomplish those you probably will have an idea what to do and how to do..not to mention your skill will improve..and of course try to perform to friends everytime you get a chance..improve your performance..guess that will make you busy and forget the pass for a while..later you can invest on dvds..michael Ammar is the man for me!have a good time
Message: Posted by: Foucault (Aug 4, 2005 09:16AM)
The pass is a method of controlling a card or cards, but it is an advanced technique. It's not necessary for most tricks, yet it seems to be the sleight that is most often used to "prove" oneself to fellow magicians. To me, it is therefore pretty low on my list of priorities to learn. Especially when there are other, easier techniques to achieve the same thing. Learn to double undercut instead.

The books mentioned above are great buys. If you're a visual learner, I recommend Richard Kaufman's "Basic Card Technique" DVD/Video, which I often refer to as "The condensed Daryl". Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights is...well, encyclopedic in scope, but it's expensive to get the entire set and there's a lot of stuff that you won't ever use. Kaufman's book contains stuff you will use as a beginner in sleight-of-hand magic.

Many people recommend Roberto Giobbi's "Card College" set as essential. They are relatively expensive books, and I've never read them myself.
Message: Posted by: Loual4 (Aug 4, 2005 02:43PM)
Learning about the pass and back palming is nice, but you need to know what to do with all of this... While there are quite a few tricks to be done with these two sleights, I think you would do well to get the "card college" series, or at least the first volume to get you started. I these books you will not only learn sleights, but also how to use them in the actual tricks themselves. Lots of people have already recommended other books, like RRTCM, etc..., but personnaly, I prefer card college. More expensive to get, but they amazing sources for card magic.

Have a good day!
Message: Posted by: Ben Proudfoot (Aug 4, 2005 04:46PM)
Hi Moose,

I definitely do not recommend learning classic pass and back palming without having a routine to use them in. If I know a difficult move, I know its crucial to have it in a specific routine. Remember, the simplest way is often the best way. If you're looking to do a manipulation act, you might want to check out manipulation cards. Norm Nielsen has excellent ones at http://www.nnmagic.com. As for learning sources, I recommend Jeff McBride’s Card Manipulation series. As for the pass, the effect is that the deck is cut secretly. I know some people who are amateurs and do the pass very well as their control. I also know seasoned professionals who do a Double Undercut to do the same. It’s your style that counts. My philosophy is that you only need one move for a certain action (ei. controlling a card, switching a card) unless your doing it more than once in the set, or the blocking of the trick requires you to use a certain sleight. My advice to you as a young performer: Work as hard as you can to make an impressive 10-15 minute act, and perform it anywhere and everywhere you can. Perform as much as possible, buddy - you'll go far.

Your friend in magic,

Ben Proudfoot
Message: Posted by: Essie (Aug 6, 2005 10:08PM)
I agree with Ben.

Although the back palm was one of the first things I learned, it hasn't really been a whole lot of use to me. I found after a few weeks that I prefer close-up card magic to stage manipulations (although I do enjoy that as well!). That said, I always like to have some new sleight to work on and hopefully perfect whether or not I'm going to use it on a regular basis.

So, if you want to work on close-up magic, I'd recommend checking into the "Easy to Master Card Miracle" video series by Michael Ammar. If you decide you want to work more on stage manipulations, I'd recommend looking at the Art of Card Manipulation videos by Jeff McBride.

If you want to practice something in the meantime, I'd recommend working on getting your double lift to look completely natural. It is sooo easy to kill an awesome effect by screwing up a "simple" double lift, I'd focus on that before learning anything as complex as a pass. Good luck!
Message: Posted by: Azaziel (Aug 11, 2005 12:38AM)
Try ninja 1 from ellusionist.. yeah they might be spendy but he does some good teaching.. If that's not good enough search the web for online magic suppliers.. you will find what your looking for...And take your time when you finally do learn it. Don't read or watch a video and think that you have the mechanics down without practice.. Do it for a friend or infront of a mirror.. g/l