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Topic: Art of Card Manipulations by Jeff McBride
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 27, 2002 04:50PM)
I have finished these tapes and mastered all but about 5 manipulations only because I thought they were not worth it, but if I were to rate this tape on manipultion it would get a 9.5 out of ten 10. Every card person should get these tapes. It for me took 6 months to understand eveything really well and perform the sleights amost perfect. Now here is my question :bg: where should I go from here?

Wikiro :dance:
Message: Posted by: Jeb Sherrill (Oct 27, 2002 05:23PM)
Now practice them all for another ten years. You may be able to do them all, but "mastery" is a mighty big word, and it takes a lot longer than six months.

However, the next step aside from "true mastery", would be to create a strong routine. You have most of the card manipulation moves ever devised and it's time to start using them. The tapes have more than you'll ever actually need for a good routine, and for heavens sake, don't try to fit in all, or even half, or probably even a 1/4 of the moves. I've seen people do this, and it just looks like you're trying to do every move in the book, in what they "call" a routine. And of course, that's exactly what you're trying to do.

You can also go the way I like to go and start coming up with your own moves for the lesser part, and new ways to use the old moves for the greater.

Good luck, you have a long road ahead.

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 27, 2002 05:43PM)
I have mastered the sleights but not the angles. How long is a good routine? 15 minutes? 20 minutes? At 120 minuts I'll drop on my side. It wont be pretty. :lol:

Wikiro :dance:
Message: Posted by: aznviet6uy (Oct 27, 2002 11:44PM)
mastering the selights should take u longer than 6 months, it took me 3 years to master the front plam to back plam, with the least flash that I can, and yet I still dont think I have mastered it enough, these are hard selights, I mean, how many can u plam? I say in 6 months you can do about 16 cards with out being noticed, unless ur using manipulation cards than probally more, but I still think 6 months, isint enough for you to call it "MASTERING". well thats just my thought.

Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 28, 2002 05:56AM)
Haha I can palm 20 now and not have any noticed I am a very fast learner Ive got the pivot down pretty well the only problem is the angles on it. I guess you guys are right im not really mastery level on this tape.

Message: Posted by: Kendrix (Oct 28, 2002 10:22AM)
Wow, I have been doing card manip. for over 15 years and have only "mastered" about 10 moves. I guess I am a slow learner. Remember doing this in front of 900 people is a totally different experience.
Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Oct 28, 2002 10:31AM)
I will be performing card manipulation on stage for the first time next month.. I finally retired the first deck of Bee's that I had been working with since I took this up.. They had gotten really dingy looking.. I hope I can get the newer cards broken in well enough..
Message: Posted by: Masilon (Oct 28, 2002 10:40AM)
Could you suggest me a good book for beginners about card manipulation ? What about the Ganson's Routined Manipulation Finale ?
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 28, 2002 11:34AM)
How much time does a routine take in card manipulation?
Message: Posted by: LeConte (Oct 28, 2002 03:11PM)
To master Thurston's "Five Card Vanish and Reproduction" must take longer than six months! That is one hard sequence of manipulations for me. Mine will not be ready for a few years.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 28, 2002 04:25PM)
I got it on the second try angles and everything. I really want to know though how long is a routine.

Wikiro :dance:
Message: Posted by: aznviet6uy (Oct 29, 2002 12:44AM)
2-4 mins most, i had done a mistake for going up to 7 minutes, as i have said in one of these posts.

one more thing, being a fast learner doesn't make you all that great, its in the presentation. thats where all of the magic lies. sure u can back plam 20 cards, but hey! if you cant do it correctly, then there is no point in performing is there? and dang 20 cards, u must be a super, ultra fast learner, it took me 2 and 1/2 years to get up to there, and i think ima preaty fast learner. well practice, and i hope u get your angles down.

Message: Posted by: Kallak (Oct 29, 2002 05:38AM)
good luck with the performance Geoff.

just out of morbid curiosity, what type of venue (sp?) is it?
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 29, 2002 11:36AM)
Why doesn't anyone beleive that I got the slieghts almost to mastery or mastered in 6 months? I never said presentation or angles, just the sleights. Also if it sounds like Im showing off Im not I just wanted to rate a tape and ask were to go from there. I had no idea how long it took all of you so I thought this is the normal speed. Im sorry if I offended anyone by this.

Wikiro :pout:
Message: Posted by: Dabek (Oct 29, 2002 11:49AM)
Well i learnt the whole video in two hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (just kidding, I wish)
Will everyone stop trying to out do each other.
Message: Posted by: Kallak (Oct 29, 2002 05:44PM)

If anything, I believe it is your use of the word "mastery". I guess you could say that it's misleading.

If I have "mastered" a sleight, but have not done my homework on the angles, how do I know that I really have it "mastered"? that I haven't "mastered" an (albeit slightly) incorrect handling.

Card manipulation is a fairly complex art form. So when someone comes along and claims to have mastered all of the moves from a 3 video set in 6 months (especially given that the video's instructor said that mastery would take many years), it raises a few eyebrows.

I think people assume that the person is either A. full of it, or B. thinks he knows what he's doing, but honestly has no clue.

Personally, I am not going to try and judge you. I am not in NY and therefore cannot see your manipulations to decide for myself what I believe your skill level to be.

I would always be hesitant to use the word or concept of mastery. Particularly when the topic at hand is of a difficult or complex nature. "Proficient" or "good at", sure, but mastery is a whole new ball game.

In closing, it's merely a wording issue. "only a fool claims to be a master" so the saying goes.

best of luck with the manipulations.
Message: Posted by: aznviet6uy (Oct 29, 2002 11:15PM)
I totally agree with you,
well said kallak, well said.

Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Oct 30, 2002 10:13AM)
On 2002-10-29 06:38, Kallak wrote:
good luck with the performance Geoff.

just out of morbid curiosity, what type of venue (sp?) is it?

Its a good old fashioned theatre, with stage lighting and all that jazz...
Message: Posted by: Kallak (Oct 30, 2002 11:02AM)

again, good luck with it. do let me know how it goes.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 30, 2002 11:28AM)
I changed it from mastery to something else I guess I went overboard Im sorry. I was so happy I got how to do the mercury production with casino cards (short corners)I didnt hear myself. I feel like a total...well I won't say it. I am really sorry. I hate it when people do that and I just did it.

Feeling really stupid.

Oh and Geoff I hope it goes really well. Tell use what happens.
Message: Posted by: Kallak (Oct 30, 2002 10:48PM)

Don't let it bother you. There's no harm in getting or being excited about something that you enjoy.

Despite the initial reaction to your word usage, I guarantee that everyone here is routing for you.

It may sound at first like everyone is angry with you or that they think you're clueless, but rest assured that the things that have been said stem from a desire to aid you in giving beautiful performances rather than unintentional card manipulation exposes.

Having said that, I also think that McBride's series is top notch. Personally, I would say that 9.5 is a conserative estimate considering the quality and care placed into these videos.

As far as routines go, generally 2-5 minutes should suffice. Depending on what types of productions you are doing, this may wind up being a LOT of cards (imagine 5 minutes worth of near-constant split fans for example).

In regards to "what next", I totally agree with Jeb. You have a wealth of information on hand. It's time to start putting it to work for you. Begin constructing some short manipulative sequences and work your way up to a full blown routine.

Stay creative, stay original and never stop practicing. If anything, one might say that this is perhaps the closest thing to a true path towards mastery that you're likely to find.

All the best.
Message: Posted by: millusions (Oct 31, 2002 03:00PM)
My suggestion for further study, if you can find them, is jean hugards card manipulations 1-5 and card control by arthur buckley. Those books have had a bigger influence on me tnah anything else in magic

good luck
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Oct 31, 2002 03:34PM)
Card control by Arthur Buckley? What is that Ive seen it once but forgot what was in it.
Is it on total card control?
Message: Posted by: Dan Farmer (Nov 1, 2002 01:09PM)
I've missed you grasshopper :rotf:

Anyway, the whole point of manipulation is routining. No matter how good your sleights are doing single sleights isn't particularly impressive and it is MUCH easier to figure out what happened. I noticed you mentioned that you can do the mercury production routine. That's a good one, I like the tenkai/packet vanish one. Short and sweet.

A good place to start would be A Card Act by Tom Osborne. It's a small book and it is a full manipulation routine laid out for you. This will 1. give you something to perform and 2. let you see a "model" for routining.

Last tip you said you had all but 5, if arm spreads are one of them I'd recommend you keep working on them. I went to a seminar with Jeff McB and I was the only one there (other than McB) who could do arms spreads and catches. That was pretty neat.


PS The Buckley book is on controls like shifts, crimps Etc. Eugene Burger recommended that book to me.
Message: Posted by: gtxby33 (Nov 2, 2002 03:29AM)
On 2002-10-27 17:50, wikiro wrote:
I have finished these tapes and mastered all but about 5 manipulations only because I thought they were not worth it, but if I were to rate this tape on manipultion it would get a 9.5 out of ten 10. Every card person should get these tapes. It for me took 6 months to understand eveything really well and perform the sleights amost perfect. Now here is my question :bg: where should I go from here?

Wikiro :dance:

do you have the tarbell series? the art of astonishment (aoa)? AOA is crazy.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Nov 3, 2002 09:22AM)
No I dont have many books and cash for that matter I bought these tapes from a member of this Café. Really nice guy. $45 for the whole set and they were really never used.

Also I added to the mercury production I think it might be to fancy though.

Wikiro :bg:
Message: Posted by: Kallak (Nov 3, 2002 09:35PM)
What's the addition?

Not quite sure why, but personally, I keep getting this urge to throw in a Ken Brooke or a Lee Grable every now and again (though these often have to wait until the stock is a little smaller).
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Nov 4, 2002 05:24AM)
Haha exactly what I do.
Message: Posted by: Kallak (Nov 4, 2002 12:23PM)
well, that should tell you it's not too fancy. I'm definately not a fancy person and I keep finding myself wanting to do it.
Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Nov 4, 2002 02:49PM)
On 2002-10-30 12:28, wikiro wrote:
Oh and Geoff I hope it goes really well. Tell use what happens.

Thanks.. I'm a little nervous but I will be workshopping with McBride the night before my show, so hopefully that will help..

as for the Tom Osbourne routine, its very minimal on the productions side of things, which seems to be the route favored by McBride students.... maybe this is a good thing? Its nice to see a very different point of view for a card act.. I must admit I choked a little when I saw the part about following the arms spreads with a cane spread!!
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Nov 4, 2002 03:14PM)
When you are performing always think you are better than you are it gives a good effect and also I never seen a McBride show does he even talk in them?
Message: Posted by: Kallak (Nov 4, 2002 08:34PM)
On 2002-11-04 15:49, Geoff Weber wrote:
...but I will be workshopping with McBride the night before my show, so hopefully that will help.. [/quote]

you get to workshop with McBride!?!?! life is just not fair.

You gotta tell him he rules once for me. maybe twice. :)

all the best.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Nov 5, 2002 05:52AM)
oh and ask him where he gets those mask ideas?
Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Nov 18, 2002 09:37AM)
My show went really well. We had a sell out crowd, and I got a big picture in the Washington Post. Jeff gave me some excellent advice which I worked into my routine.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Nov 18, 2002 02:55PM)
Congratulations!!!!! :pepper: :cucumber: :banana: :pepper: :cucumber: :banana: :dance: :dance: :dance: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:
Message: Posted by: uconn_ron (Nov 19, 2002 08:27PM)
On 2002-11-04 16:14, wikiro wrote:
When you are performing always think you are better than you are it gives a good effect and also I never seen a McBride show does he even talk in them?

Jeff was at a convention in Atlanta this past weekend. I got to meet him and talk with him about his new theater, the impact of music on his act. I really enjoyed his lecture about being a magician "24/7".

It was the first show I've seen of his and was impressed - it would probably be even grander on the big stage. It is incredible from a few feet away though!

I haven't done it, but he does offer these "Master Workshops" in Vegas.

Message: Posted by: gtxby33 (Nov 20, 2002 02:28AM)
On 2002-11-05 06:52, wikiro wrote:
oh and ask him where he gets those mask ideas?

............erm...maybe i'm misunderstanding you but the Chinese have been doing that for centuries... performing changing masks is like doing lab changes or an eidetic change... pretty tough.... does anybody here actually do the eidetic infront of people?
Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Nov 20, 2002 09:45AM)
Here's the story on how the masks came into the act: When he was a teenager, he started by just putting a mask on the front of his table as a set decoration... Then after a while he tried putting some silks in the mask and pulling them out the eye holes to do a trick with... Then he tried wearing the mask, pulling out the silks, taking off the mask and doing the trick... so you see, it started off simple, and with a little experimentation, he just kept adding more and more...
Message: Posted by: jlareau (Nov 22, 2002 01:25PM)
I am really jealous that you got to work with Jeff. I used to occasionally (I mean VERY RARELY) bump into Eugene Burger at a local magic club I was involved in. Unfortunately I was too young and stupid to realize how awesome of a magician he really is, so I didn't take the time to really work with him. I was only about 10 years old. Now I wish I had spent more time learning from the man.

The thing that really irks me is that he personally taught me how to do his "Shot Glass Suprise" eleven years ago, and I forgot it. Now it's a hot selling item, and I don't have enough cash to buy it!


-sorry bout going off on a tangent there.

My point is that working with the likes of Jeff and Eugene is a really awesome thing and I hope everybody in this forum at least has a chance to 'meet & greet' two of magic's greats sometime in their lives.

By the way congrats on the show Geoff. Is there a tape of the performance we could watch?

Message: Posted by: wikiro (Nov 22, 2002 03:19PM)
I have never met another magician exept for someone street entertaining in Virginia Beach and in a kids show in boy scouts(i was 5). So my best magician experience is with the tv with David Copperfield. I have never seen another magician perorm all the way through till resently when David Blaine showed up. Also Peter Marvey (the man who got me into magic). So im pretty much on my own.

Message: Posted by: Zenvedev (Nov 24, 2002 11:54AM)
On the mask thing- yeah, Geoff is right. That's exactly where Jeff came up with his "mask ideas." He also studied Kabuki theatre and a couple martial arts and took dance. He has incorporated ALL of these aspects into his mask routine. If you have never Jeff's show, his illusions are silent and he speaks between each of them to tie the whole show together.

Yeah, Jeff's tapes are good, but the best resource is Jeff himself. I'm one of his students and if you show him that you are capable, AND HUMBLE, about your work he'll be happy to work with you on anything. Not to drag out old topics, but there is probably nobody on this board that can call themselves a master. I do applaud you, wikiro, for admitting when you are wrong. We can get carried away sometimes, especially when we've just learned something that amazes ourselves.

Uconn-ron: I suggest you attend one of Jeff's Master Classes. He is also having a great workshop in January called Weekend of Wonder where Alan Ackerman will also be present. There are several more ideas that stem from his 24/7 lecture that he discusses in more detail in other lectures for students who he has seen on multiple occasions.

I try to not be too biased when I speak of Jeff since he is my teacher. However, he is really the best thing that we as magicians have going for us right now. If he wanted to, he could be on TV and be just as big as Copperfield and Blaine. Jeff favors keeping the magic real by preserving its integrity on the stage (magic is meant for live theatre, not TV although TV has revitalized our industry- give credit where credit is due) and also by teaching all of us, "brother magicians."

Oh, and I also give these tapes a 9.5 only because he saved bouncing the cards off the stage for himself, which I can respect. He gave us 6 hours on tape and saved 30 seconds for himself...