(Close Window)
Topic: Chris Angel card through bus window
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Aug 26, 2005 10:22AM)
I'm stumped. I know the method behing most card through windows, but on a moving bus, with a signed card?? David Copperfield also did the same effect on a moving train with a signed card. Anyone know of a resource for this?
thx
Message: Posted by: Matt Morell (Aug 26, 2005 11:29AM)
You could easily incorporate Sean Bogunia's card through window gimmick on a moving vehicle but I think as far as the " signed " portion goes, he's getting a lot of extra help from his crew or using a stooge.
Message: Posted by: EvanMagic (Aug 26, 2005 01:06PM)
It's the same card he uses, but notice how the camera seems to cut. It's not constantly filming. Just something I noticed, including his garbage teleportation.

Evan
Message: Posted by: Muggers (Aug 26, 2005 02:11PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-26 14:06, EvanMagic wrote:
It's the same card he uses, but notice how the camera seems to cut. It's not constantly filming.
[/quote]
What? You're not impling some kind of shenanegins going on are you? ;)
Message: Posted by: EvanMagic (Aug 26, 2005 05:49PM)
Not at all :P . But when your watching his teleportation, as he is covered with the garbage can and the hands go on top, watch how the camera sleightly but noticeably moves. His talking seems constant on the radio from our tv perspective, but that's from the magic of editing.

Evan
Message: Posted by: dragonchaos91 (Aug 26, 2005 05:59PM)
I think he has a helping hand with his crew. If you watch carefully you'll notice his methods, up until the point it appears on the other side of the window.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2005 09:10PM)
Was the card signed? and even if it was think of how many stooges he used for the levitations.....

How does this qualify as magic at a moments notice? That had to take hours at least to do
Message: Posted by: Nell (Aug 29, 2005 02:49PM)
How does that qualify as magic, at all? Cutting cameras to mask your method is not magic. It gives a bad name to the art. From interviews I've read with Chriss Angel in the past, he seems to be fairly well educated on the art of magic, so why settle for this blasphemy? Is the money behind reality TV really worth it if it means discrediting a name you worked to build. Not for me!
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Aug 29, 2005 10:28PM)
It seems a little too easy to blame camera edits for a failure to understand how exactly Chris did it. The more I think about the effect the more I think I know how it could be done...without camera edits.
Message: Posted by: lane99 (Aug 30, 2005 02:09PM)
I'll just add: if you watch closely, you'll see they seem to have digitally blurred the front windshield of the bus while the lady and Crangel were choosing the card.

Whether it means there was already a card there that the digital blurring was hiding, or whether they used that as a red herring to put people off the track, or something else entirely, I dough no.

Mtm. So what's your idea, raphlo2?
Message: Posted by: Pachin (Aug 30, 2005 04:16PM)
Nell and Raphlo2. I suggest you do some research in the Café about Chris Angel. You are going to find about how many top of the line magicians are not very happy with this guy using a lot of editing, fake spectators and other non magical methods for his show. It si pretty sad.

Just the fact that he takes his shirt off to show his muscles on every show, step on Houdin's monument with no respect and stating that he can do stuff that Houdini cannot and making his mom cry at the shows tells you a lot abouth his character, goal and professionalism.

Instead of wasting time trying to figure how he is "faking" magic focus on some other more realistic non camera magical effects. For example have you heard about David Forrest from the UK Full 52 project ?. The effect is call Card Through Window. Try it, Is very strong. Check his website at http://www.full52.com/

Joaquin
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Aug 30, 2005 09:48PM)
What's with all these haters? Magic is a craft based on effects and its reactions--no matter how they are accomplished. Chris Angel has managed to do just thst and is more successful at it than anyone here on the Café. People, you really need to put an end to all this jealousy and just be grateful that someone out there is bringing the art to a mainstream audiences. Without people like Chris and David Blaine (who also gets bombarded with negativity on these boards) magic would remain a joke form of entertainment reserved for kids parties and restaurants. And may I add that althouhg he can at times be a little cheesy he brings an edge to the craft. Thank you Chris for actually breaking the stereotype of magicians being dorks (ie the movie industry having the main character in The 40 Year Old Virgin be into magic) and showing the rest of the world that magic can be something cool and exciting...not just "hey, look what I found behind your ear." :yawn:
Message: Posted by: Nell (Aug 30, 2005 10:51PM)
It's not about hating. As I've said, he seems educated, and I'm sure I'd find him charming if I were to meet him. I was not speaking directly about this card thru window effect either. Just editing in general.

Regardless, I have no respect for "camera tricks" in magic. Editing film to hide methods is unacceptable to me and to many others. Now, the stuff he's accomplishing without the "camera tricks", I can appreciate. That goes for David Blaine as well. Unfortunately, all it takes is one bad seed to leave a sour taste in my mouth. I have issues with the film industry as well, but this is not the place for that. I'm relatively easy-going. I really wanted to like this show. Some effects have been unique and impressive. Others have been blatently created with the use of "camera tricks". It's very simple really. This is my opinion-and that's my perogative. I'm not telling anyone else what to believe, nor is that my intent. I just like to further discussion.
Message: Posted by: mc_magi (Aug 30, 2005 11:00PM)
Lmao, raphlo2.
there has been literally gazillions of forum topics (not only Magic Café ones) devoted into this discussion.
The bottom line is, if you think magic is some silly kids event thing without Camera Cutting, you are thinking way off to the center.
If you've actually seen some real magic being done, with real spectator and real methods instead of some cheap camera tricks, you'd know that Criss and David are doing isn't needed.
By the way, magic is not being treated as some kids-show-thing, even by the people who don't know david or criss. I don't know where you live, but I don't think, and havent thought for one instance that those two individuals brought mucch more respect to the magic community. All we've got is 20 million people trying to copy them.
Also, its not about jealousy. its about keeping magic for what it is, and not turning it into complete stooge - cut- this-portion-out thing.
I really don't like their performing style to start with anywyas,
"watch.... watch......" ==+
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Aug 31, 2005 11:08AM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-31 00:00, mc_magi wrote:

The bottom line is, if you think magic is some silly kids event thing without Camera Cutting, you are thinking way off to the center.
If you've actually seen some real magic being done, with real spectator and real methods instead of some cheap camera tricks, you'd know that Criss and David are doing isn't needed.
/quote]
Is that really what I said? No. I said that I've witnessed this as being the concensus amongst the general population. But whatever. I think that what many of you are forgetting is the level of skill that Criss has for perfoming "real magic." I'd love to see any of you on this thread go one on one with either Blaine or Criss in front of a live audience and see who gets the most applause. That's a bet that I'd be willing to take.
Message: Posted by: Pachin (Aug 31, 2005 04:53PM)
Raphlo2 it all depends on what you consider "level of skills". Not sure what are your standards. It all depends on which other magicians have you seen perfoming alive besides Criss A.

You should come to Texas and we will take that bet. We do not push fake palm trees because we do not have them. But we do have other pretty good effects that are stronger and very magical. We do not use cameras at all.

Joaquin
Message: Posted by: Jeremy L. (Aug 31, 2005 07:02PM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-30 22:48, raphlo2 wrote:
Magic is a craft based on effects and its reactions--no matter how they are accomplished.
[/quote]
No, it is about entertaining, reaching out to people, giving to the spectators!

[quote]
On 2005-08-30 22:48, raphlo2 wrote:
Chris Angel has managed to do just thst and is more successful at it than anyone here on the Café.
[/quote]
What about Curtis Kam, Paul Green, Richard Osterlind ect. to mention just a FEW of the great pro. magicians here at the Café alone not to mention the many, many other pro. magicians that are not members here (e.g. Jeff McBride, Lance Burton ect.). They too are magicians and very, very good ones, and I think you are forgetting about them and their magic and their contribution to magic, our art.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 31, 2005 11:12PM)
Hey lets not get off topic. The trick did entertain HIS audience. Not me spacificaly, but a certian segment of the population really liked it. He has to at least get credit for that no matter what his shortcommings may or may not be.

That being said it truley amazes me that anyone can truley be STUMPED by almost anything he does. It almost invariably involves camera manipulations plain and simple. He entertains someone because he is on TV so he gets my respect for that. I am not the least bit entertained by him, but his checks seem to clear without that little problem so as I said he must be doing something right.

I may not agree with his methods or be entertained by him personally, but somebody is. Good for him, better yet good for magic.
Message: Posted by: Nell (Sep 1, 2005 07:49AM)
Well, good for his career, but not necessarily good for magic. It seems to let laypeople who are just getting interested in magic believe that we all have lower standsrds and poor ethics involved with our careers. As I've said, the man has talent, he is educated about the art of magic. (Clearly, this is true if we look at the guests he's had on his show. Lance Burton, for example. These people wouldn't come if they didn't respect him.) I can't understand why he won't use THAT in his show. Reality TV with magic just doesn't work, because the smarter of two people will know it's all bogus scripted crap to begin with.
Message: Posted by: Corey Harris (Sep 1, 2005 08:49AM)
You also have to think though. A&E is putting the show on basically they are doing the editing most likely.
Message: Posted by: mc_magi (Sep 1, 2005 05:14PM)
Well, really, some people think Blaine or Criss has the best skills in the world,
there are tons out there, on the forum and off the forum who can squish them flat. Im not saying they are uneducated (magically) people, they ARE (as Nell says too) educated in magic. Now the thing I don't like about Camera cutting segement, is that TV is a media. It can be used to deliver the magic, but it shouldnt be used to create magic. I mean, then why not use special effects and fly around everywhere?,
To me, using camera cutting and putting it up as real magic - as they do - is a con, not a magic.
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Sep 1, 2005 10:28PM)
Well, as everyone here knows by now. Magic isn't real. And in my book, as long as your actions are perceived as being real to a layman, mission accomplished; no matter what the method used. Magic is entertainment and if your audience watches the show/act and leaves entertained then your work is done. You should all stop your jealousy and aspire to be as successful as both of today's most prominent magicians.
Message: Posted by: mc_magi (Sep 1, 2005 11:45PM)
Lmao, nvm I wont even waste my time on this thread with someone who thinks its all for jealousy, hahahahahaha.
tell that to Lennart Green one day, will ya?
or how bout you PM banachek about it? Mr Marini? Mr Bish?
nvm, I'm finished on this thread.
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Sep 2, 2005 09:16AM)
Oh no, please say it isn't so.

Posted: Sep 2, 2005 11:52am
"Or how bout you PM banachek about it?" Microphone Master

By the way, Banachek's on the show, genius, as a consultant.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 6, 2005 12:09AM)
I wish it didn't cause people to get mad at each other.

2 simple facts about the show. first he does entertain his audience. Not me but his audience is entertained.
second he impresses someone at the network because he is still on. These are facts and they are not in dispute.

Another fact, and I admit a LOT less relevant is that I would rather have my knuckles smashed flat with a sledge hammer than to watch him, or even bear to listen to him speak.

I do tend to agree with Nell partly. The part I disagree with is magic is out there when he is on TV. This is a good thing to me on any level. Awareness is good. But as far as reality TV and magic I agree with ya completly!

Now all be nicer to each other. Or what the heck argue it is more fun anyway to read!
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Sep 6, 2005 08:39PM)
It was impromptu in that it was not a planned trick, not that it was an impromptu trick. Done as usual some manipulation of the cards, an unknown assistant and a good deal of misdirection on Mr. Angels part. It fooled the passengers badly.

Judicious editing was for the benefit of the viewing audience at home - and for us.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 7, 2005 12:28PM)
Frank. I think Chris would NOT risk an impromptu performance for a TV show. He has that much show biz savy at least. I can't believe it was not a planned trick as you claim. It makes no sense that he would use so many stooges in other things, but in this one card trick it is just an impromptu idea that occurs to him. Why would he even be on the bus in the first place? which was my main question. The fact that he was even on the bus means that it was a planned effect.

I believe it fooled SOME of the passengers badly, not all.

Mind you I am not in this post offering a position one way or the other weather it is right or wrong good or bad, just what makes sense.
Message: Posted by: magicarisimon (Sep 7, 2005 11:14PM)
If he screws up, then whats the big deal? They just don't show it on TV. It's as simple as that.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 8, 2005 02:16PM)
Point is he would never chance it. He is quite showbiz savy.
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Sep 14, 2005 08:55AM)
Show biz savy or not, Dan in fact he's not chancing anything because everything is on film. If it didn't go well we would never have seen it. I could be wrong but I believe the story that he and his crew did have to take the bus due to a breakdown of the motor home. This is disaster when you are on a tight filming sxchedule to have so many of your crew idle. I believe they saw this as an opportunity to do something that if it could be pulled off would make the day productive and possibly give them something they could put into the show.

Other than having one of his crew place the card while he and the rest distracted the passengers there is not a lot of prep to the trick. Was the bus continuously moving? well that is the way it was edited for us to believe - but to quote a popular Twin Cities radio personality - "Uh, we don't KNOW that!"

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 14, 2005 02:06PM)
Frank we are making the same point actually. That was what I meant by savy, it was no chance at all.

You are directing the posts at me as if we are in some disagreement, I am confused. Maybe I am not making it clear so here goes.

He is WAY to smart to take any chances about anything. Not saftey or even sucess of tricks. Your right if it didn't work regardless of the circumstances of the setup, we would indeed never see it.

That all being said I do not like the show. I respect him, but it does not fit my taste.

I truley do not believe for a second the reason for being on the bus. It was lit WAY to well and everything that is needed to do the remotes just happened to fit. It makes no sense logistically. The lights, batteries for everything necessary to be powered, all just HAPPENED to fit right? then they managed to move all that crap out of the way to do this trick? Come on it makes no logical sense.

They happened to get all the angles right, the shadows and lighting, just spur of the moment with what they happened to bring with them? Plus working out the logistics of the trick so nobody knew and did it all completly improv? Just the placement of the card on the window was an exacting process, let alone the lighting for outside. My point being it was anything BUT magic at a moments notice.

That being said, he did pull it off so hats off to him
Message: Posted by: Frank Tougas (Sep 14, 2005 04:16PM)
You may be right as it is obvious that Cris is not above saying or doing anything to set up an effect. I don't like the show either and don't really count it as a real magic show, but it is I believe the wave of the future for magic on television.

I did take the story about being on the bus at face value and felt that the trick was then set up so as not to waste a days shooting. After all the crew and equipment were supposedly there - it is being shot as a reality type concept. But the whole thing could be a red herring, and I fell for part of the con.

I wish I could say how I believe it was hatched "on the run" and executed but we are not to discuss methods or secrets here. Regardless of the set up I agree it is not an impromptu trick.

Frank Tougas
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 15, 2005 12:54AM)
Frank, lets hope this is not the wave of the future. I MISS the days of the audience in the studio and just doing some cool effects. I really do.

Man the old Doug Henning shows were great. The Copperfield specials. Don Alans magic ranch. These shows had lots of set up stuff, shills or stooges sure but used less obviously. Maybe Don didn't use stooges but the first 2 sure did.

Anyway I guess things are changing and it makes me sad.
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Sep 15, 2005 11:42AM)
As much as many of you may hate to admit it, Cris Angel and David Blaine are the future of magic. Nobody wants to see a Doug Henning special on TV today. People are looking for what's extreme. And in our craft there's only so much we can do to create that feeling. A couple of camera edits is a small price to pay I say to keep magic alive and in the limelight.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 15, 2005 06:14PM)
Ok hold up right now.

When was the last time you saw Blaine on TV? He is still alive but not anywhere to be found now is he? If he is so much the wave of the future and not a flash in the pan he would be still there. He is NOT.

Second Chriss Angel does not qualify as wave of the future with less than 1 season on cable TV. Sorry. Copperfield is still consistantly one of the top 10 paid entertainers on the world. Not magicians, entertainers. SOMEONE sure likes to watch him.

Future of magic ha ha. Maybe they will be who knows. But for now they are not.
Message: Posted by: Amir (Sep 15, 2005 08:54PM)
Criss Angel has real magical powers. Didn't you see the extreme intro movie? Only a real magician can have an awesome intro like that!!!! :D

or

Aliens.

One of those is surely the answer.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 16, 2005 12:45AM)
Aliens ayyyyyyyy? Maybe it should be considered. No camera tricks but aliens. They did a fine job with the pyramids now didn't they?

But we are not here do discuss methods don't forget!
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Sep 16, 2005 04:33AM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-29 23:28, raphlo2 wrote:
It seems a little too easy to blame camera edits for a failure to understand how exactly Chris did it. The more I think about the effect the more I think I know how it could be done...without camera edits.
[/quote]

Could have been bad directorial work. I remember an episode of "Blakes 7" (British SF show from the 80s) in which one of the characters did a breakaway phantom tube. First he shows the tube, a little clowning holding the tube to his ear and spinning around. Then he opens the tube and shows it empty, then he closes it up again, and at that point the director cuts to a reaction shot of his audience! Then back to the character and he reaching into the tube and pulls stuff out! The actor was actually a magic fan and said he was horrified when he saw the shot because he knew everyone was going to come up to him and say; "Oh, they just slipped everything into the tube at the cut, didn't they?" And they hadn't, he'd worked with that tube for hours to make it look right!

[quote]
On 2005-08-30 22:48, raphlo2 wrote:
What's with all these haters? Magic is a craft based on effects and its reactions--no matter how they are accomplished. Chris Angel has managed to do just thst and is more successful at it than anyone here on the Café. People, you really need to put an end to all this jealousy and just be grateful that someone out there is bringing the art to a mainstream audiences. Without people like Chris and David Blaine (who also gets bombarded with negativity on these boards) magic would remain a joke form of entertainment reserved for kids parties and restaurants. And may I add that althouhg he can at times be a little cheesy he brings an edge to the craft. Thank you Chris for actually breaking the stereotype of magicians being dorks (ie the movie industry having the main character in The 40 Year Old Virgin be into magic) and showing the rest of the world that magic can be something cool and exciting...not just "hey, look what I found behind your ear." :yawn:
[/quote]

So, it's OK that he's doing stuff that will only work on television with digitization?
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Sep 16, 2005 09:55AM)
If you watch the show at all you'll see that most of his stuff isn't edited. And if any of you have seen his NY show, you can't deny that he's an accomplished, skilled magiacian, with an original sense of creativity. It's really a shame so many of you come down on him, and can't support a fellow magician.

Posted: Sep 16, 2005 10:55am
Even if at times he can be a little cheesy
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 17, 2005 12:36AM)
He is an accomplished magician to be sure. I HAVE seen his NY show and agree. I just wish his specials were more like THAT.

Can you REALLY tell me that you think the bus window thing was done without editing? YOU have to be KIDDING. Almost all of his stuff is edited. It simply is a fact of television. That is not the problem. The fact that the only way he can accpmplish magic, even though he IS an accomplished magician, seems to be through editing is sad.

He is creative, perhaps one of the most creative we have seen for a while I agree, he is also quite original. Matter of fact I have seen him spawn MANY immitators who pale in comparison.

This all being said almost ALL of the things he does ANYONE without the magic skill he posesses could accomplish. That is the problem I have. The fact that he is a talented magician almost never comes into play in the specials. Maybe I wish it did. That was what was great about the old specials. They involved talented magicians using their talents.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Sep 17, 2005 10:19AM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-15 12:42, raphlo2 wrote:
As much as many of you may hate to admit it, Cris Angel and David Blaine are the future of magic. Nobody wants to see a Doug Henning special on TV today. People are looking for what's extreme. And in our craft there's only so much we can do to create that feeling. A couple of camera edits is a small price to pay I say to keep magic alive and in the limelight.
[/quote]

If this is true, God help us all!

Camera edits are cheating, chroma key is cheating, digitization is cheating. If I want to watch "special effects" I'll break out one of my Indiana Jones or Star Wars films. If I want to watch magic, I want to watch magic!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 18, 2005 08:31AM)
Magic on TV is usually cheating. Aside from a few folks in the early days who made a point to work with no cuts, editing and a live studio audience, ... the rest is more film making than performance.

Let's try this for size, if what you were to film with your camcorder and experience in person is in any technical (magic method) or timewise or kinesthetic way different than what is shown in the program, then you have what amounts to a movie, not a magic special.

Once you add edits and non synchronized camera cuts to the production you have lost the element of veracity and are now using film technique to tell a story which (as film students know) need have no objective reality. Poof! credibility gone. Good cinematic storytelling but not the same as live magic. Different. Not gonna say better or worse.

For example, I am still amazed that some here treat the torn and restored card trick from the Copperfield special as a live performance. Over fifteen camera cuts and no sign of the camera man. Take the hint, or better yet take a film course.

Yes to cinematic storytelling. And yes to live magic presented with integrity.
Message: Posted by: MaGiCoH (Sep 21, 2005 04:05PM)
Card through bus window..

just a hint: the chosen (and signed) card, was controlled to the t** and pa**** ... then...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 23, 2005 12:34AM)
When my bus breakes down I get a cab! How did they end up riding on a bus?
Was it a city bus? Was it a chartered bus? If chartered, then all of the folks on the bus were "PUT" there by someone. Right? It didn't look like an ordinary city bus. I've ridden quite a few.
It was another bus chartered by the producers of the show. In that case, everyone on the bus is "Working" for the show...Right!?! And TV producers usually hire "Actors" don't they....
Unless you think that a chartered bus just happened by.........
Wake up!
BTW...I really do like Criss, and this IS the future. Get used to it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 23, 2005 12:40AM)
Your right and your wrong. The bus stuff is right. As far as Chris goes he is now the presant, and we have no way of knowing if he is the future. If it goes over well enough with the public then yes indeed your right he is the future. The jury is still out on that one. He may be.........we will have to watch
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 23, 2005 09:59PM)
Radio Mentalism is the next big thing!!!!!!!!We just lie on the radio so no pesky editing is needed!
Message: Posted by: r1z08 (Sep 24, 2005 08:11AM)
I really do not think that Criss cares much about what the magicians in the audience think about him, but rather he cares much more about the laymen. While it's fun to fool our fellow magicians, even I still care more about baffling the spectator who has no clue about what a Gallo Pitch is. Does anyone here agree? Did you really get into this art to just try and entertain other's in the craft or did you get into this for the laymen?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 26, 2005 01:00AM)
I think the debate is weather he is actually entertaining an audience that is not magicians.
Message: Posted by: Envy (Sep 26, 2005 02:20AM)
Some have mentioned "it's a camera trick" etc... Folks..it's tv, you need a camera to film it in order to brodcast it! Just because it's on tv doesn't mean it's staged, or fixed or edited.
He goes out of his way to do his illusions in the most public forum available..on the street corners filled with complete strangers about. If it was all fake and if these hundreds of people week after week were "paid" to give fake reactions to the tricks, don't you think that by now, at least a few people would come public and say they were paid to "duke" the public?
It's funny tho, how when someone reaches the top of their game, such as Chris, how others on a lower level, try and knock the top guy down. Why? I dunno, but I do know if they put as much effort into improving their own "game" instead of criticizing others, maybe they'd have their own tv show and be admired by millions too for being a great entertainer. And isn't that what Chris is? An entertainer? I think he does it admirably, and the rest on here that can only find fault, what time did you say your tv show is coming on? Or what dates did you say your playing Las Vegas? lol Get a life PLeaseee
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Sep 26, 2005 08:25PM)
Finally, someone with some sense around here...
Message: Posted by: magicurt (Sep 26, 2005 11:01PM)
I have mixed feelings about it all. I woul not use the cameras as my gimmic to accompish an effect, but I do see some validity in a sense. Wasn't it Thurston who said his goal was to use an audience of 1000 to fool a single layman. I do feel many lay people don't look at his show as "real magic". Most people I ask say they think it is camera tricks. Entertainment is the goal--Period. But long term will this be entertaining? I don't believe it will.

I believe Baine seems to pass so quick is his lack of off camera show. I don't know anyone who has ever bought a ticket to a D.Blaine show. If you can't do a live show you just aren't a true magician. Blaine has talent but hasn't really used it wisely.

Chris does have a Vegas show and has been successful. So I find myself more tolerable of him. But long term will people desire to see these effects from us, the non-t.v. personalities? Where will it go? I don't know. But short term it brings in a new audience and entertains enough to be good for us all- at least briefly.

Curt
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 27, 2005 12:18AM)
Envy actually he goes out of his way to do the things in the LEAST public places. He has everyone stooged my friend this is not public. He tries to make it look public, but come on.

Again he is on TV so he is doing well as that goes. I am happy for him and wish him well. But please be realistic about it for us.
Message: Posted by: swee (Sep 27, 2005 07:53AM)
I totally agree that he uses camera trick
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 28, 2005 01:56AM)
Oh and by the way I think you are quoting Ted Annamen. Not sure mind you but I believe so. You may even be quoting him incorrectly.
Message: Posted by: Eddini_81976 (Oct 14, 2005 07:30AM)
[quote]
On 2005-08-29 15:49, Nell wrote:
How does that qualify as magic, at all? Cutting cameras to mask your method is not magic. It gives a bad name to the art. From interviews I've read with Chriss Angel in the past, he seems to be fairly well educated on the art of magic, so why settle for this blasphemy? Is the money behind reality TV really worth it if it means discrediting a name you worked to build. Not for me!
[/quote]

I agree Whole-Heartedly Nell. You hit the nail on the head. If you see my other posts you'll see, I don't think using stooges, pre-show work, camera tricks / editing constitutes as "Magic". People aren't dumb. Richard Osterlind has a great take on this and a huge post. It's NOT about hating him OR jealousy. Obviously he's had great stage Illusion Shows. It's just this T.V. stuff I don't as well as many others don't like, Ed, (Eddini).

P.S. Why Banacek is invovled I don't know. Banacek is great and I have the HIGHEST RESPECT for.
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Oct 15, 2005 02:30AM)
[/quote]

I agree Whole-Heartedly Nell. You hit the nail on the head. If you see my other posts you'll see, I don't think using stooges, pre-show work, camera tricks / editing constitutes as "Magic". People aren't dumb.
[/quote]

LOL first off A lot of entertainers not just magicians use stooges, and I am the first to admit it. In my show I use one stooge and it works well for the lay audience and they have no idea. Pre show work is a part of art and a very cleaver part of art. I use a pre show work as well for a mind reading effect. I admit it. But it is clever and works well and no one has a clue, Camera tricks as in editing to acomplish a effect is wrong because the effect can not be re created live. But Editing out a move or a slieght is not wrong as tv would catch that no matter what. There are several ways to look at this but these are just opionons. Tv magic is not the same as live magic. Kinda like watching A broadway play on tv, there is nothing like experiencing it live. The energy on tv is a lot harder to capture then in a live situation. As for people being Dumb....LOL I really agree look at how many people are on this message board ripping other peoples hard work down. THAT IS DUMB. I ISSUE A CHALLENGE TO EVERYONE READING THIS THREAD, I HAVE A PROMO VIDEO ON MY WEBSITE. IF YOU CAN TELL ALL THE EDITS AND ALL THE CUTS AND WHAT THE REASONS WERE FOR THEM AS FOR TV I WILL GIVE ONE LUCKY WINNER A FREE COPY OF MY EBOOK BAR MAGICIAN. The only rule is that you must be specific about the edits. YES THE TV STATION DID SOME EDITS TO CLEAN UP SOME MAGIC, BUT I ASSURE YOU WHAT THE AUDIENCE SEES IS WHAT THEY GOT!

GOOD LUCK, AND REMEMBER BOYS AND GIRLS THIS A ART FORM AND THINGS CHANGE IN OUR AS THEY CHANGE IN OUR LIVES.

The first person to get it all right will be the winner I will post it here when and if that happens...LOL p.s. PM me only with your answers as I don't want it all over the Café.

http://www.tpdmagic.com just hit the promo vid section then the link for my promo video.


tpdmagic
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 15, 2005 09:50PM)
Ok so your saying you use good edits? GREAT the problem with Chris is his edits are so obvious. I agree with you the proper use of them is fine.

I KNOW Harry Anderson used a fantastic use of TV editing in Hello Sucker. NOBODY knew it but it was great. Simply read the book Wise Guy to see what I mean.

The problem is with his OBVIOUS use of the edits. Yours are not obvious, great for you and your show and for magic in general. You are kind of making the point I am making.

His use of STOOGES is horrible because it is the ONLY solutiion. THIS is the exact problem, thank you for clarifying it.
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Oct 16, 2005 06:03AM)
Danny, I just understand the difference between tv and live magic, they are two different things. But I know that like what you said about his use of stooges is horrible, I personally don't think his use of stooges is horrible I think there choices of stooges was horrible. They are not believable at all, but to the lay audience watching the show maybe they are. I can tell the difference between a real reaction and a stooge reaction but can a lay audience? I am not sure of that. And you are right about Harry Anderson, it was very clever and very good editing for that effect. Thank you for the compliment about the not obvious use of edits for my promo, truth is I had no controll over the editing it was done at the production house, once I filmed the specials and did my thing it was out of my hands. I don't know how much control if any Chris has on his specials but on mine I was hired to do my magic, and the rest of the stuff was done with the production house. Anyway it is a art form and tv is another art form, I suggest to anyone go see chris live if you can as his show would be strong and the vibe would be there as with all good live magic.
[b]Just want to point out no one has even attempted my challenge...kind of funny with all the people on the café bashing angel for using editing, tv magic and not one person has taken my challenge. There is a free e book in it for the winner, the book is a 19 95 value.... The challenge is still on....[/b]

tpdmagic
Message: Posted by: Sam Griffin (Oct 16, 2005 01:03PM)
I have one thing to say ..

Stop following the rules you bloody out dated and clished magicians!!!
Maybe that's why your here - arguing on themagiccafe?

Can't you jelous so called entertainers just be cool for once?
Listen to yas!
The truth is..He's more succesfull then you!

Ask yourself this .. Why do I perform magic?

Got your answer, good!
Now shut the **** up.
Get with the time.

Chris man, love your work!
Congratulations on your success!!
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Oct 16, 2005 03:55PM)
Sam, I love it, to the point and dead on....Good post...

tpdmagic
Message: Posted by: nucinud (Oct 17, 2005 10:23AM)
I like Criss, I have met him and spoke to him.
This thread is about magic at a moments notice.
Some of the stuff Criss does do impromtu.
But you have to realise the cost of doing a TV show.
They cannot waste tape. So 99.9% is planned.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 18, 2005 01:36AM)
Nice when the children choose to post here.

Sam you haven't the faintest idea what you speak of. Is Richard Osterland outdated and cliched? and less sucessfull than anyone?

And while we are on the topic off topic, YOU are posting on the Café now arren't you?

Are we not allowed to have an opinion? Is one that differs from yours automatically outdated? Can't we learn from a civil discourse?

Grow up kid and learn to live with differing opinions.

tpdmagic my point was that his choice of OBVIOUS stooges was horrible.

Do you think because the laity does not know what a double lift is that they can't see what a bad one looks like? OF COURSE THEY KNOW. This is Richard Osterlans point I believe.

Anyway Sam please keep it civil at least if it is not too much trouble. thanks
Message: Posted by: voiceover (Nov 10, 2005 05:46PM)
Excuse me fellas. Chris Angel is not a magician. He is a filmmaker acting as a magician. He mixes basic street magic with scripted film production. It's not magic by any stretch. If it were he could do most of it live. He can't.

You guys can.

He can't.

He relys on film editing and a paid staged audience. His stuff is shot just like a movie is. None of it is live.
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Nov 11, 2005 08:15AM)
[quote]
On 2005-10-17 11:23, nucinud wrote:
They cannot waste tape.
[/quote]

They record Mindfreak on DV. Which costs less than borrowing a quarter, and buying a soda can.
Message: Posted by: themartyr (Nov 11, 2005 06:25PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-10 18:46, voiceover wrote:
Excuse me fellas. Chris Angel is not a magician. He is a filmmaker acting as a magician. He mixes basic street magic with scripted film production. It's not magic by any stretch. If it were he could do most of it live. He can't.

You guys can.

He can't.

He relys on film editing and a paid staged audience. His stuff is shot just like a movie is. None of it is live.
[/quote]

that's one of the most retarted things I have ever heard. You are a moron! MAGIC IS DECEPTION.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Nov 11, 2005 11:58PM)
Having worked on the set of Criss' Halloween special I can tell you there were really no camera tricks to do the magic... and in talking with Tomsoni, Banachek and others they avoid what you all here call camera tricks as much as possible.

They may do the same trick over several times to get different angles, or re-do a flub, and sure the best cuts are edited together.

His EDITOR is a magician and mamber of the Magic Castle and integrity of the magic is high on their list.

You wouldn't have the credible people helping if they didn't think it the thing to do.

He works HARD, thinks HARD and is a really nice guy and a gentleman to all the staff and spectators.

Much was shot live at the Castle with laymen in the audience... and like ANY TV AUDIENCE the floor man waves up the crowd with the applause cue. Hey, it isn't canned laughter.

And, have you noticed all the accolades (well deserved) on CYRIL'S work? Yet NO ONE IS SCREAMING ABOUT HIS EDITS AND CUTS?

Wonder why?
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Nov 12, 2005 03:19AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-11 19:25, themartyr wrote:
....that's one of the most retarted things I have ever heard. You are a moron! MAGIC IS DECEPTION.
[/quote]I don't agree...morally there is a difference between [b]*honest*[/b] deception and [b]fraudy*[/b] deception...
Yeah, I know you might not understand what I mean..your problem then... :goof:
Message: Posted by: themartyr (Nov 12, 2005 03:36AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-12 04:19, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
[quote]
On 2005-11-11 19:25, themartyr wrote:
....that's one of the most retarted things I have ever heard. You are a moron! MAGIC IS DECEPTION.
[/quote]I don't agree...morally there is a difference between [b]*honest*[/b] deception and [b]fraudy*[/b] deception...
Yeah, I know you might not understand what I mean..your problem then... :goof:
[/quote]

So your saying what criss does is not morally acceptable in the magic world? Im pretty sure he won magician of the year 3 times. Also I have two words for you. STAGE MAGIC
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Nov 12, 2005 04:33AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-12 04:36, themartyr wrote:
So your saying what criss does is not morally acceptable in the magic world? Im pretty sure he won magician of the year 3 times. Also I have two words for you. STAGE MAGIC
[/quote] I have a feeling you don't know the difference between a *real* pickpocket/a criminal and a *stage pickpocket* performing to entertain by *honest* and advertised actions, presented as entertainment, display of skill, whatever, but always with a twinkle in the eye and with fun and entertainment as the goal..
Watch Paul Potassy and Borra...

I am aware of, that the comparence of the above with what Criss Angel does is exaggerated, but to exaggerate, makes thoughts more understandable..

You still haven't got it.

[b]One doesn't do magic a favour[/b] -in respect to *normal* watchers/non-magicians- by presenting/showing *impossible* effects based on cameratrickery and at the same time announcing that there are no cameratricks used..
NOTE..the above just mentioned example is not aimed especially at Criss Angel, it is a general remark re *honest* and *fraudy* deception, which are just my own terms to look at those things TV does provide us with...

[b]Ever seen the *old* Mark Wilson TV series? He didn't need the *fraudy* help of the camera..one thing is to find a good angle for a shot, another thing is plain and pure cheating and camerafraud...[/b].

I'm not even interested in watching the *modern* way of presenting *magic* on TV, where there is NO magic, just simple and plain cheating the viewers by use of cameras..

I think I made it pretty clear (for most to understand, not all of course) what I mean, so I'll let it stand at that from my side... :goof:

[b]You stick to your opinion, I stick to mine, so each and evey word written from your site or mine is a waste of time ?

Depends on, *who* is listening and who does understand, which isn't the same to prove *me* right and *you* wrong or vice-versa, but 'food for thought' *whereto* magic is going in this century....to the better, or to the worst?????????????????[/b]
Amen.... ;)
Message: Posted by: frenchmagi (Nov 12, 2005 07:39PM)
Wtf?
Message: Posted by: Eyesee (Nov 12, 2005 09:09PM)
Well, there is no camera "editing" per se...BUT, I saw the same thing happen when Criss Angel did the trick where he penetrates thru a glass storefron window.... and another performer on TV a few years ago (can't remember his name) where he was locked in a box on one side of a canyon, and the helicopter flies over to the other side to find him emerge from a box on that side...

"the same thing" that happened is this: Either the magician or the voice-ever announcer makes an emphatic point that "THE CAMERA WILL NOT CUT AWAY AT ANY POINT."

But in every one of these cases, the camera DOES cut away briefly!! Look for it as soon as you hear that statement, you'll see it happen. That's the misdirection. :)
Message: Posted by: jsvoros (Nov 14, 2005 10:24AM)
Well guy's here's my two cents.

The fact of the matter is Chris is a real magacian, and a good one at that. Weather or not he's using "camera tricks" I don't know, and in this case it dosent really matter. The fact is that he is also an entertainer. He's taking advantage of the fact that there's a large part of the population out there who want to see magic, want to be fooled and can't travel to see live shows.

David Blaine started this trend by takeing magic to the people, and for better or worse people enjoyed it. Chris is merely takeing advantage of this as an entertainer and following Blaine's example with; at least in my opinion; bigger and better illusions.

There's an entire demographic out there that is hungry for this kind of entertainment, and if he can capitolize on that more power to him. I'm not saying this is the future of magic. And, it will never replace the experience of seeing magic live. However, for now at least, it's easy access for the masses to the form of entertainment we all love so dearly.
Message: Posted by: TonyLey (Nov 14, 2005 11:43AM)
To all the doubters, haters and arm-chair magicians -
Why? Why even discuss the camera editing and the use of stooges? Blaine did the same thing on his television specials and with good reason.
When most magicians who do not perform professionally know a magic program is going to be televised, they will record it. We all do it. Most don't do it to watch the magic show itself and appreciate it, they want to know how the tricks are done or which tricks that particular perfomer is doing on his show.
In Blaine's specials he used editing to throw many magicians off track. He was capturing what spectators think they're seeing for the home audience. He knew that magicians would be trying to figure out his effects and look for things that a lay audience would not be looking for.
Angel does the same thing. His shows aren't for magicians. His shows are for the general television audience who, when watching one of this shows, will see exactly what the spectators that are there will experience. He's not concerned about what a bunch of speculating, arm-chair magicians think. The man is too busy making an envious living at doing magic. How many of the people who hate him are out there performing on Broadway or filming specials and television series. My guess is probably a very, very small amount. It's sad that there's this animosity towards someone who's doing so well in the field of magic.
Editing is used to keep magicians from understanding his methods. There are sooo many copycat magicians every time that a magic special airs that it's just ridiculous. Just look at what happened when Blaine did his levitation or used a particular device to make a coin disappear. Do you know how many people went out and bought that device? TONS. Just ask your local magic dealer to tell you about what happens the day after a magic special is shown on television.
For those that seem to spend much of their time discussing how terrible it is to see editing on a televised magic special...ask yourself what YOU do with YOUR special after you'd read these boards and knew what kind of magicians were out there?
Instead of wasting so much time bashing those performers that are out there actually doing something with their talents, why not develop your own, build a show, get a television special and look back on just how silly you were in the beginning.
Tony
Message: Posted by: voiceover (Nov 14, 2005 12:36PM)
Digital Magic at its finest.
Watch me make a car dissappear.
Roll Camera.
See the car?
Stop Camera.
Move Car.
Roll Camera.

Amazing! The car is gone!
Show astonished onlookers (friends and actors)
Put it on tv.
Call it magic.
Call it crap.
Message: Posted by: jodi6302x (Nov 14, 2005 09:33PM)
Criss angel doesn;t always use camera tricks I guarantee it because he is selling some of his effects. Look on his website and check it out.
Message: Posted by: themartyr (Nov 15, 2005 01:47AM)
Who cares? I'm entertained! Last post I will make on a purely opinionated topic.
Message: Posted by: troller (Nov 15, 2005 10:04AM)
Did anyone ever consider sleight of hand as the method? It's not like anyone looked at the card close up to determine that it had writting on it...until the bus stopped and the guy took the card and handed it to the spectator. Sounds like typical magic stuff to me!


Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:09am
--------------------------------------------------
I find that all the people on this forum that are complaining of Criss Angel's methods are sort of like [b]laymen[/b] who just figured out that the tricks they saw were as a result of conjuring and tricks and not the 'real magic' thing!

It's suppose to entertain and it did. Controversy is abundant once someone finds out the secret to a trick. It seems among magicians it's even more abundant when they can't figure it out!!!!
Mohaha....


Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:18am
--------------------------------------------------
Someone mentioned fraudulant.. why?

Is the use of a TT fraud?

What about IT, is that fraud... it sure would be if the layman ever found out. But the layman is not suppose to know the method. Just like your not suppose to know the method to Criss Angel's magic.

Why complain that someone found a better method and used it to get to the same point your trying to do... make magic. Who cares the method, it's the end result we are after. And what is the difference if I am using the TT or the Raven to do the same thing?

Something unbelievable happens and everyone tries to figure it out... when they can't they just throw in the excuse that it's [b]camera tricks[/b].


What about using your head and thinking of alternative ways that it could have been performed?


Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:22am
--------------------------------------------------
Hahahaha, what if we compare this:

[quote]
On 2005-11-14 13:36, voiceover wrote:
Digital Magic at its finest.
Watch me make a car dissappear.
Roll Camera.
See the car?
Stop Camera.
Move Car.
Roll Camera.

Amazing! The car is gone!
Show astonished onlookers (friends and actors)
Put it on tv.
Call it magic.
Call it crap.
[/quote]

to this:
Stage music at its finest.
Watch me make this hanky disappear
Lights
See the hanky
Watch me put it into my hand
Throw the TT in with it.

Amazing! My hands are empty!
Show astonished onlookers (friends and amazed magicians in the audience).
Get your own show on tv.
Call it magic.
Get heckled by magicians in the audience because you used a TT.
Message: Posted by: voiceover (Nov 15, 2005 03:38PM)
To the generation raised on Lip Synced concerts, I say to you...

A real magician does not need camera tricks.

A real magician uses a real audience.

Some of his tricks [b]are[/b] standard magic, mixed in with the phony stuff. It gives the phony stuff leverage.

He's using you, and you should be offended.

Mark Wilson, Doug Henning, Harry Blackstone and other real magicians never stopped the camera, let the girl out of the box, and started the camera again.
Message: Posted by: TheFourWinds (Nov 15, 2005 05:15PM)
I think that the camera tricks are just another form of what ever you call your gimmick.

Every trick has one and it just so happens to be what Criss Angel uses. Don't see a problem with it.

After all, you are not doing real magic now are you?! You use gimmicks. And sleight of hand.

I can see the audience having the same reaction that you are showing once they find out that they too can purchase it for $40 at their local magic store. In other words.. ya, you do sound like a layman!
Message: Posted by: Tony Ley (Nov 15, 2005 08:32PM)
Voiceover -
A real magician does not need camera tricks -
There are no 'camera tricks'. You are seeing what a layman would probably remember and how they see it.

A real magician uses a real audience -
If you use accomplices in your magic to create an amazing effect that the surrounding LAYMEN believe in...what's the difference between having hidden assistants on stage helping you?

As for the leverage...I agree with you. And?

He's using us? How? That's just a silly statement. I should be offended because why? Because he gets laymen to talk about magic and, in turn, gives me a chance to perform something I know that melts people's brains helping them to believe in the impossible?

Mark Wilson, Doug Henning, Harry Blackstone and other real magicians never stopped the camera, let the girl out of the box and started the camera again?
I'll bet that if they were able to take a camera out into the street with people all around them they would.

Your profile shows that you're a show producer? Would you risk exposure on the street while filming a network special like Blaine or Angel that could either make or break your career? Wouldn't you make sure that either you or the artist that you're representing came out of the whole thing smelling of floating roses? Or would you like to last as long as sheet of flashpaper in a barbecue?

Take care,
Tony
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 15, 2005 10:38PM)
I guess I feel it may be a generational thing and it may not.

Lets look at Jackie Chan vs. The Matrix for a second.

What I mean is the fact that Jackie does ALL his own stunts and they are really cool and it is his skill that is amazing which makes people watch his movies. The movies may not be good, but people appreciate what he does.

The Matrix was certianly more popular, but for different reasons. For production values and maybe you can argue it is a better movie. But WHY do people watch it? For different reasons to be sure.

So I guess it is a matter fo preference.
Message: Posted by: troller (Nov 16, 2005 10:23AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-15 23:38, Dannydoyle wrote:
I guess I feel it may be a generational thing and it may not.

Lets look at Jackie Chan vs. The Matrix for a second.

What I mean is the fact that Jackie does ALL his own stunts and they are really cool and it is his skill that is amazing which makes people watch his movies. The movies may not be good, but people appreciate what he does.

The Matrix was certianly more popular, but for different reasons. For production values and maybe you can argue it is a better movie. But WHY do people watch it? For different reasons to be sure.

So I guess it is a matter fo preference.[/quote]

Even though Jackie Chan is an expert at Kung Fu, he does a take a hundred times to be sure the final effect is determined. The Matrix used real professional kung fu masters to teach the moves to the actors, which had to perform them until they were perfect.

Each is the same analogy as stating that Criss Angel made sure the final outcome was determined. Whether using stooges or camera edits, it's all the same thing.

Let's talk about Criss' levitation... the one where he goes like 5 feet into the air. Well, no one is complaining that he used wires now are they?! Well it's the same thing to complain about camera edits and then complaining that David Copperfield used wires to accomplish his levitations. Why complain? We are all magicians that know that each trick requires a gimmick or something that helps us control the object and do what we please with it. The camera is another gimmicked apparatus!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 16, 2005 10:57AM)
My point which was missed was people like Jackie because of his skill. The Matrix was a visual spectacular! to be sure, but different.

I was trying to justify BOTH sides here, not argue the merrits of one.

I agree with the Jackie Chan side more. I enjoy the skill HE has, NOT the skill the editers and camera people have in the Matrix. Only an opinion.
Message: Posted by: voiceover (Nov 16, 2005 12:02PM)
If I go on stage and lip sync a song, does that make me a singer? Does it mean I can sing?

If I go on TV and show someone a great meal I just made, when in reality I brought it in from a local restaurant, does that make me a great chef?

If I pay someone to write a book for me does that make me a writer?

If I go on TV and rely on trick photography to do the actual magic, does that make me a skilled magician?

Apperently so, according to some of you.
Message: Posted by: jsvoros (Nov 16, 2005 02:21PM)
-Troller-
-Even though Jackie Chan is an expert at Kung Fu, he does a take a hundred times to be sure the final effect is determined.-

I hate to be a nit-picker here, but Jackie Chan does not know Kung Fu. He Never Claimed he did. Jackie Chan is a chinese opera trained actor. The reason he makes Kung Fu movies is because he likes them and they sell. And the reason he does a million takes is because he dosen't know Kung Fu and wants to make you think he does.

Now Jet Lee on the other hand is a Kung Fu expert, was at the ripe old age of five, who picked up acting in order to make money.

So a better comparison owuld be: Jackie Chan - Jet Lee, as Criss Angel - Harry Blackstone. The end result is the same to the laymen, but the path to get there is different. And, in the end since it's the laymen that pays the bills then he's the one who decides whats worth the money, not us.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 16, 2005 03:46PM)
As I said a matter of preferance
Message: Posted by: troller (Nov 17, 2005 01:39PM)
I've been watching Jackie Chan do the old Kung Fu movies since I was a young lad... he does know kung fu. Singing is a extra hobby he had.

Britney Spears does do lip syncing on her live shows.. but it was her that created the vocal in the studio. She can't dance and sing at the same time with clarity.

If you learned to cook a meal and presented it on the Cooking Channel, then it is justifiable, eventhough you did not create it in the first place nor did anyone taste it afterwards. Whos's to say it tastes good?

Criss Angel performs magic.. same with Lance Burton and Penn and Teller. They all do the same thing and have the same outcome.

Stop complaining that Criss uses props, stooges and whatever because I could prove to you that Cyril Takayama does too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 18, 2005 10:38AM)
Wow I didn't mean to start the Jackie Chan knows kung fu debate!

My point was a stylistic one.

He DOES the stunts, that is what draws the masses to his movies.

The Matrix used CGI to accomplish their things.

2 different approaches. I PREFER the Jackie Chan approach. I enjoy the actual skill more than the CGI stuff because HE is one of a small number of people relatively speaking, who can do what he does. ANYONE can be in the Matrix and have them CGI the stuff for them.

I feel as magicians we should STRIVE for people feeling we are one of a small group of people relativly speaking who can do what we do. Otherwise why are we calling ourselvs magicians at all?> Isn't that the entire point?

My feeling is when ANYONE reduces magic to the simple use of props and camera editing (take Chris's name out of it here I am saying ANYONE) it kind of demeans what we do. We should be percieved as having great skill and having practiced, NOT that we have cameras and money.

If this is the future of magic, magic is in trouble because the PERCEPTION of the public that anyone can do it will eventually bit us in the but in the long run.
Message: Posted by: voiceover (Nov 18, 2005 06:27PM)
That's exactly what I mean when I say he's using us. He takes our skills and cheapens all of it.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Nov 19, 2005 10:18AM)
[quote]
On 2005-09-01 09:49, Corey Harris wrote:
You also have to think though. A&E is putting the show on basically they are doing the editing most likely.
[/quote]

This is a point. There's a British science fiction series from the (70s? 80s? Not certain) called "Blakes 7." In one episode, one of the characters does a couple of magic tricks. The actor was very fond of magic and actually learned how to do a Phantom Tube production. So, he has the tube, he splits it open to show it empty, he closes it up again, and the director decided to CUT TO A REACTION SHOT OF THE AUDIENCE! Cut back to the character and he starts pulling stuff out of the tube! He said later that when he saw the episode, he cringed because he KNEW everyone was going to say they stuffed the tube full of stuff during the cut!
[quote]
On 2005-11-12 20:39, raphlo2 wrote:
Wtf?
[/quote]

I understood it. There is a fundamental difference between performing magic on TV and using TV to make the magic happen.
[quote]
On 2005-11-15 02:47, themartyr wrote:
Who cares? I'm entertained! Last post I will make on a purely opinionated topic.
[/quote]

I'm entertained by "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones" as well, but I don't consider it "magic."

[quote]
On 2005-11-15 18:15, TheFourWinds wrote:
I think that the camera tricks are just another form of what ever you call your gimmick.

Every trick has one and it just so happens to be what Criss Angel uses. Don't see a problem with it.

After all, you are not doing real magic now are you?! You use gimmicks. And sleight of hand.

I can see the audience having the same reaction that you are showing once they find out that they too can purchase it for $40 at their local magic store. In other words.. ya, you do sound like a layman!
[/quote]

Nonsense. Stopping the camera, using blue-screen, anything else of that nature is simply special effects, not magic. Frankly, Industrial Light and Magic can do it better than we can.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 20, 2005 10:15PM)
This was the difference I was getting to with my Matrix comparison.

both entertaining, but completly different animals.

One ( the Matrix ) is camera and cgi and editing and Jacki Chan is more(not all) but more skill involved in his spacific craft.

YET BOTH seem to emulate the skill of the same craft.
Message: Posted by: magiGlen (Nov 21, 2005 02:35PM)
The only explanation I can find is that he did an acr on the same girl before. It seems he's searching for a specific person when he's looking for somone. It might be possible that they put the signed card from the acr on the wind shield somehow during a washroom stop on the bus.
Message: Posted by: nbps05 (Aug 10, 2006 12:04AM)
You guyz are all complaining bout criss angel, why don't you support him a bit he is a fellow magician who has made it big plus do any of you guyz have a show every wednesday night
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Aug 11, 2006 04:07PM)
I'm not sure at who's feet I'm dropping this at but:

Tornado of Fire Special by Copperfield: the illusions where edited, som of them cannot be replicated in real life exactly as show on T.V . Did David catch this much flack about it? Just asking?

I am qualified in Television production and I can tell you that editing is unavoidable. To be on Television the performer has to show some sort of extrodinary skill -beyond almost anyone else that is why effects are enhanced by editing ( removing dirty work).

With video tape and digital media a trick can be played back over and over..and in slow motion until a detail is uncovered. Editing out something that cold expose a method to the national audience is something one might even be greatful for.

I think the rub lays in the fact that due to television production techniques the common street magician cannot achieve certain effects as it was seen on TV. I can understand the frustration this would cause..but realise that this maybe the reason Criss and others work the way they do- so their effects can't be performed by every kid with a deck of cards leaving his reputation undiminished.

Just my ramblings ..make of it what you will.
Message: Posted by: TheMagicOfDamon (Sep 2, 2006 09:23PM)
To make a correction about one thing.... David Copperfield on the Orient Express Episode did not have the card signed. He tore a corner off the card and gave it to the lady that was with him... grrr I just watched my old video and her name escapes me. He places the card with the torn corner and places it back into the deck then does the card through window routine.

As for Criss Angel.... I agree that REAL MAGIC to me is on a stage or even perhaps in the street with REAL effects and no stooges or camera edits.... if that is how magic is to be interpreted then any lay person can just be a magician.
Message: Posted by: Dove84 (Sep 4, 2006 01:20AM)
If magic is just going to be camera tricks, editing, and stooges, why do we need magicians? Couldn't an acomplished actor do a much better job of selling the show if that's all there is? When we watch a magician on TV it should be just that, a magician on TV. Meaning he should do the same things you would see him do live. Otherwise you're doing nothing but setting up an unrealistic expectation that ultimately will hurt more than help because it can't be met in real life.
Message: Posted by: sickmagic (Sep 4, 2006 05:05AM)
This is a old and tired subject, lets just realize that Tv magic and real world magic is not 100 percent the same. And there are many reasons why! If any of us had the chance to do what these guys are doing on tv believe me we would.
Message: Posted by: The Mac (Sep 16, 2006 04:12PM)
Sick you are right..

I'm not defending or condoning any action I'm just gonna tell you why it exists :

Its fine for people who have never had to produce a t.v show to complain about stooges etc. I know how hard it is (I work in television) Criss angel has to a lot of pressure to come up with 13 episodes full of killer stuff so in order to keep things spectacular he probably started using all the above mentioned sins..it lesssned the pressure so he just kept on doing it. You can spend years practising your 5 minute oil and water routine but after people have seen it on t.v once..you better have something else! T.V audience is a lot less forgiving than a live one -
Message: Posted by: Bill Hoffman (Oct 6, 2006 12:30AM)
I was wondering if this trick is available for purchase? Man the bus part is gonna cost a fortune hahaha
Message: Posted by: Lusion (Oct 29, 2006 12:51AM)
The effect can be done many ways....now as for Criss, as said you pushout 20 something episodes of magic..13 episodes is what you see!!...he is on his 3rd season!!! Best show A&E has had in ages and you need to realize that stuff like that is not easy. Editing will be there on TV and magic....thedays of the great Doug Henning and live magic specials are a thing of the past. Copperfield uses stooges and plants at his shows....but hailed upon, so why down someone else? Criss has made it Point blank, there will be those that hate, that's how life is. The fact is that with magic being so hot right now and I have upgraded my tricks and illusions, thank to Criss and others I now get a higher price to perform. I am not a fan but a friend, magic was suppose to be a brotherhood whats really going on now?