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Topic: What is a card shark?
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Dec 20, 2005 05:07PM)
This is no joke I really want to know what Café members think or feel what a card shark is.

Is a card shark a card cheat that uses moves to advantage play?

Is a card shark a magician that uses moves to look like they could advantage play but use them to entertain audiences?

Or both?

What makes a magician a card shark and what makes a cheat a card shark? What I am looking for is some kind of an outline or a level of skill to base this observation.

Thanks...
Message: Posted by: KidCrenshaw (Dec 20, 2005 05:24PM)
I think a card shark is someone who has the skills to pay the bills.

I don't think a shark is the same as a cheat, but moreso an advantage player by their very nature of understanding the game, and familiarity with predicted outcomes.

I think a magician is made into a cardshark by his audience.

Interesting topic, Glenn.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 20, 2005 05:25PM)
I am a Sharp and a you are a Flat. You play on Square and I am a Rounder. :)


See Sharps and Flats. Here:
http://rickyjay.com/radio.html


Tommy
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Dec 20, 2005 05:30PM)
From my limited point of view I have always viewed magicians who use gambling cheat themes in their magic to be nothing more than playing the part of the card shark (or sharp). Some of them may want us to think they're truly on the grift, with all the romatic notions that may include, but I doubt they could really get the money.

I have always thought of a card shark as somebody who gets the job done, undetected, through mechanics, advantage or device. In fact, the LAST guy you'll see doing a card trick is a true proffessional sharp!
Message: Posted by: Jaz (Dec 20, 2005 05:32PM)
The cheat who uses their skills and preys on other gamblers is a card shark. These sharks are out for the money.
I would say that player who is honest but wins consistantly might also be considered a card shark or card sharp.

One who entertains with the same level of skill and similar methods as the cheat may be seen by spectators as a card shark/sharp.

I don't think it's a matter of skill level as much as it is their goals.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 20, 2005 05:33PM)
The earliest I see the term used was actually just sharp,
as in sharps and flats, sharps being the clever folk, and flats being the dull unsuspecting marks.
Card got stuck onto sharper later to narrow the definition to someone who predominately cheats with cards, as opposed to dice or other games.
Nowadays, among gambling inclined folk, cardshark means someone who is very good at playing without cheating, someone who is on top of their game , but
cardsharp still signifies a mechanic, or cheat.
They are used interchangeably sometimes, but the definitions I laid out are the standard.

It was said.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Dec 20, 2005 05:50PM)
[quote]From my limited point of view I have always viewed magicians who use gambling cheat themes in their magic to be nothing more than playing the part of the card shark (or sharp). Some of them may want us to think they're truly on the grift, with all the romatic notions that may include, but [b]I doubt they could really get the money.[/b][/quote]

Interesting comment because this is general view magicians have.... that it would be difficult to "get the money" and that many could... this is only partially true.

Generally(and I mean generally), magicians have much greater SKILL than card cheats but mearly lack the knowledge of how and when to apply it(and the morals and guts to actually do it).

I point this out because a simple bubble peak or heel glimpse can EASILY get a ton of money and something well within most magicians skill level.

My point is that while most magicians can't throw out a bunch of centers or riffle stacking to win each hand, they DEFINATLY can "get the money" by just applying a glimpse or peek throughout the night.
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Dec 20, 2005 06:09PM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-20 18:50, Daegs wrote:
[quote]From my limited point of view I have always viewed magicians who use gambling cheat themes in their magic to be nothing more than playing the part of the card shark (or sharp). Some of them may want us to think they're truly on the grift, with all the romatic notions that may include, but [b]I doubt they could really get the money.[/b][/quote]

Interesting comment because this is general view magicians have.... that it would be difficult to "get the money" and that many could... this is only partially true.

Generally(and I mean generally), magicians have much greater SKILL than card cheats but mearly lack the knowledge of how and when to apply it(and the morals and guts to actually do it).

I point this out because a simple bubble peak or heel glimpse can EASILY get a ton of money and something well within most magicians skill level.

My point is that while most magicians can't throw out a bunch of centers or riffle stacking to win each hand, they DEFINATLY can "get the money" by just applying a glimpse or peek throughout the night.


[/quote]

Great point, Daegs. I really wasn't looking at it that broadly. I guess I was caught up in thinking about those blabbermouth knucklebusters I see hanging around magic shops and trying to come off like their the next person that the ghost of Vernon will come searching for. These guys don't really have the skills they would need to get it done. They know a few stacked-deck gambling effects by Scarne and the basic handling of base dealing, but they'd probably spend more time getting shot at than actually getting the money.

And for the record, I could very well be included in that list of ne'er-do-wells! However, I haven't the sand to even try and pull it off!

And Tommy, thanks for the breakdown. That makes a lot of sense.
Message: Posted by: mxray (Dec 20, 2005 06:10PM)
I think it is all relative to the person who is using the term:
I have heard people who are below average poker players use the term to describe someone who is ( while honest) a really good poker player. It is often said with absolutely no derrogation intended toward the skilled player at all, but simply to describe them as being a really good player.

On the the other hand, I have heard honest skilled players use the term in reference to a crossroader or sleight of hand artist who mucks or marks cards, or uses some other dishonest form of advantage play.

I even once heard a floorman use the term to describe someone whom he thought was counting cards. (He wasn't .)

My 2 cents worth,
MXRay
Message: Posted by: Chris Stolz (Dec 20, 2005 07:38PM)
In my opinion:

A card SHARP is someone who has the ability, or possesses the skills to cheat during a game of cards. This person is beyond that of your average magician or cheat in that they have a wide range of knowledge and can find a way to win no matter what the cirsumstances. This person could also be called a "Mechanic" and is a very rare breed.

A card SHARK is a card cheat. Someone who cheats at cards for the money. They must obviously possess some skills to take the money but do not neccessarily have to be experts...just theives.

The two can of course be meshed together which is where things get confusing.

I know known a select few magicians in my time who one could certainly call a card sharp. These obviously were people who devoted their entire lives to learning everything they could about working with a deck. That being said, to the best of my knowledge they were not by any means sharks who were looking to bottom deal their way to the slammer.

-Chris.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 20, 2005 08:39PM)
This made me laugh: :)

believe that I caught my hero, James lileks in a horrible misuse of the English language. He wrote this:

Gnat has become quite the card shark.


I fart in his general direction. What he MEANS is that his child is becoming a card SHARP, not "shark." It's a common mistake, but unforgivable in my humble opinion.
A shark is a brainless fish with a big mouth and a voracious appetite. I like playing poker with people who display those attributes.
A "card sharp," on the other hand, is a dangerous player in the game. This person knows the odds, pays attention to the cards, reads his opponents, NEVER gives away any hint of what he's holding and will make you wish were with a shark instead of him in a game when he demonstrates just how sharp he really is. He doesn't bite, but he'll cut your ass to shreds.
It's CARD SHARP, not "card shark."
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Dec 20, 2005 09:06PM)
Thanks for posting everyone and I feel that there is no right or wrong answer to the question. The reason I posted the question is that in the media - movies and TV it is often card shark and sharp.

The slang of today is different than it was in Erdnase time. The pass was called the shift but now it is often called the hop. To me the hop was not a pass or a shift but a different move used to hop the top part of the deck after the cut. It was not a full shift.

Growing up in magic the term for a card cheat was a card shark. I remember Mickey McDoogle calling people that did magic with cards cardsters. And he was a card detective - whatever that was.

I think that the card shark was a point of view that was from magic not the cheating world.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 20, 2005 09:23PM)
In the poker world today a "Shark" is a good player and a "Fish" is bad player.

But they just say "Shark" or "Fish" when they mean that, they do not say Cardshark or Cardfish.

I think most poker players today mean cheat if they say Cardshark or Cardsharp.
If they just said Sharp that would mean cheat.

That's just my opinion.

:)
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Dec 21, 2005 12:07AM)
What makes a person a card shark? From my point of view and the way that I feel about Erdnase I feel that they do not have to be a card cheat.

I would say Erdnase was a card shark or a card sharp. The reason is that he wrote the book that started it all for magic. It was the book that inspired Vernon, Miller, and countless others.

The book expert at the card table represented both magic and the world of advantage playing or cheating. He could have been a cheat he could have been a magician. He could have been both or just a guy with a heavy interest in both subjects that worked for the railroad.

At this time no one knows.

But his skill with a deck is sure because he wrote the book and know one knows if he made a living doing card cheating or magic. But in the books it is written that he played cards. And the magic section is filled with bits of business you get the feeling that he did do magic. Or those bits of business would not be written up the way that they were.

I feel that anyone doing it and not necessarily writing or publishing a book or other media - or out there cheating - but being skilled with cards and the subject matter would fit the mold.

I don't consider Walter Scott a professional cheat. But he was one that did it as a side line and was a music teacher and a performer by trade.

Just some thoughts to a fun subject.
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Dec 21, 2005 01:23AM)
Brian Tudor :D
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 21, 2005 02:27PM)
Try this in your word processor : Type the word cardsharp and cardshark.
Your word processor will tell you that cardshark is a spelling mistake.

Mine does anyway.

You are never going to be wrong to use the word Cardsharp but many word experts regard Cardshark as wrong, so why use it?
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Dec 21, 2005 03:02PM)
I suspect, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Card Shark sounds like it was probably derived from people mis-hearing Card Sharp. Not hard to do. Then once the two terms became common vernacular, people started assigning different meanings to both.

Possible...
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Dec 21, 2005 03:17PM)
Tommy I use it because of theater. Ask a person what a card sharp is? Ask a person what a card shark is? There is a theater side to selling this kind of thing to markets that will buy it as a show.

I think outside of magic more people relate card shark to cheating at the card table. And that is who is buying this as an entertainment. For me the name card shark is a marketing choice.
Message: Posted by: Vandy Grift (Dec 21, 2005 03:35PM)
To me it makes no difference. Some of the confusion may come from other words that sound similar. Especially if they have a similar connotation. Like "pool shark". Pool Shark is a common term for a pool hustler. You rarely ever hear of a pool hustler refered to as a "pool sharp".

One definition of shark is a ruthless person, or a person who victimizes others. One definition of sharp is a very keen or astute person. There really is no definition of sharp that would indicate, advantage, ruthlessness or the like.

Maybe it's back to that "advantage play" VS "cheating" thing. A sharp is a keen or astute player. A shark could be a cheat. But as Tommy said fish and shark are used differently in different situations, as a gauge of a players skill.

I think they are interchangable in the minds of 99% percent of people who really don't care about it that much. With a possible edge to "card shark". I just took a very informal, unscientific poll of 5 people. Everyone said they always thought it was "card shark".

Vandy
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Dec 21, 2005 05:29PM)
Cool Vandy I do think Pool Shark has a lot to do with the public calling a card cheat a card shark. The I feel that pool and card games may sort of go hand and hand. Thanks Vandy.
Message: Posted by: Jonas (Dec 21, 2005 05:31PM)
[img]http://x12.putfile.com/12/35417303650.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Chris Stolz (Dec 21, 2005 06:37PM)
Alright that's it...

Harwin you are my HERO!

I'll be laughing about that one for weeks....can I use it in my show? "Ladies and gentleman...I am now going to show you exactly what a card shark looks like..."
Message: Posted by: Jonas (Dec 21, 2005 07:14PM)
Go ahead =D
Message: Posted by: wol (Dec 21, 2005 07:25PM)
I thought it was Jaws with a full house! I'm lughing here guys! Is this thing on!
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Dec 21, 2005 08:00PM)
Harwin

That picture is a riot...
Message: Posted by: Memory-Jah (Dec 22, 2005 07:28AM)
[quote]
On 2005-12-21 02:23, mattisdx wrote:
Brian Tudor :D
[/quote]

lol, no comment about it.

in my opinion a c. shark is a person who is highly skilled in cheating. doesn't matter what he uses his skills for....

for me richard turner is the super killer white card shark :D
his skills are unbelieveable.....


Jah
Message: Posted by: Mark Ennis (Jan 25, 2006 06:53PM)
There is a term that pool players call "sharking". Sharking is behavior used by hustlers to cause their opponents to lose focus or confidence, such as making conversation while they are shooting or walking in their line of sight while the opponent is trying to shoot the ball.
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Jan 26, 2006 09:49AM)
I was just browsing the forums and I just saw this cons and swindles section. Wow, I can't believe it. I will definitely visit this section often.
Anyway, Glenn, your question is a very good one. A cardshark simply refers to a person who cheats at card games (mainly for the money, there's no point of cheating if there's no money involved). Now there are those who do cardhark demonstrations such as I do and you do Glenn, these people are simply magicians who do gambling and cheating related material. That's the stuff I mostly do. I don't like cheating at actual card games. I feel it's not fair for the other players. Advantage play is very common, and the population of cardshark is growing. However, I do feel that exposing the techniques is wrong. You can offer to do a cheating demonstration, or a gambling demonstration rather, but don't tell your audience what you actually did. If you demonstrate false deals, don't let them know you did false deals. Just do the demonstration, and let them be amazed. Actually telling your audience what you did is wrong in my opinion, because you've worked so hard to make your deals look good and just by telling them, you've ruined all your hard work.
So there you have it. Glenn, I'm glad you bring up these questions. So much can be learned just by reading other people's comments and opinions (especially yours).
All the best,

Michael
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jan 26, 2006 01:17PM)
Thanks for posting gang it has been interesting reading the posts.

As far as I know a pool shark is a person that plays pool well and can hustle and play under speed when they play pool. That is to play just above the person that they are playing with to keep them in the game to win more money. This is a skill and they have to play well to do it. This might be called a pool shark.

That is not what a card cheat is or an advantage player. Because this person will used moves and things like second dealing, bottom dealing, culls, stacking, the spread and use moves and things to take advantage of the card game. This is cheating. And this is what I call a card sharp.

Being able to play pool well is not cheating it is the ability to play well with years of practice. Unless something is added to the game to gain the advantage besides the ability to play well I do not consider it cheating.

A Magician that uses card moves of a cheat and uses it to entertain is what I call a card shark. Not a card sharp. Magicians like Erdnase, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Billy Bishop, John Scarne, Jack Pyle, Myself all card sharks. We can do the moves but we do not cheat with them. I would put Darwin Ortiz into this group as well as Marlo and many others.

Walter Scott, Carl Jackson they could be called card sharps.

Just some thoughts...
Message: Posted by: Jim Morton (Jan 28, 2006 03:31PM)
The original term is cardsharp--one word. It means someone who cheats at cards. The term card shark (two words) came later and comes from the use of shark as someone who is less than honest or who takes advantage of people(like a loan shark). Both terms refer to cheaters. A magician is never a cardsharp, or card shark, they are only pretending (unless they are engaging in cheating outside of their magic act). Any other definitions are the constructs of the people on this bulletin board.

Jim
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Jan 29, 2006 03:04AM)
Cardshark : A card player who, while able to cheat via sleight of hand or any arbitrary means, is capable of winning most of the time by legitimate and honest methods. In other words, a good player who only cheats when he/she "has" to.

Cardsharp : A card player who looks to cheat in every card game he/she plays, and not always as good a square player as a Cardshark.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jan 31, 2006 12:10PM)
After reading all the posts and much thinking this is what I have come up with as to what a card shark is - that works for me!

A Gambler is a parson that gambles in a game of chance.

A card sharp or a card shark is a person that can do card sharp/shark moves well. This includes magicians like Jack Pyle, John Scarne, Jimmy Cards Molinari, Steve Draun, Darwin Ortiz, Ed Marlo, Dai Vernon, Me and others in magic that use a deck of cards in the ways that we magicians do. And people like Doc who in this forum use cards to earn a living another way.

A Card Cheat is a person that cheats in a game of cards, or a person that uses skill or technology to cheat in a card game.

An advantage player is a person that takes advantage of any situation that happens in a game of chance and uses it toward his or her advantage.

Just some thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Mark Ennis (Feb 1, 2006 10:56AM)
[quote]
On 2006-01-26 14:17, bishthemagish wrote:
Thanks for posting gang it has been interesting reading the posts.

As far as I know a pool shark is a person that plays pool well and can hustle and play under speed when they play pool. That is to play just above the person that they are playing with to keep them in the game to win more money. This is a skill and they have to play well to do it. This might be called a pool shark.

That is not what a card cheat is or an advantage player. Because this person will used moves and things like second dealing, bottom dealing, culls, stacking, the spread and use moves and things to take advantage of the card game. This is cheating. And this is what I call a card sharp.

Being able to play pool well is not cheating it is the ability to play well with years of practice. Unless something is added to the game to gain the advantage besides the ability to play well I do not consider it cheating.

A Magician that uses card moves of a cheat and uses it to entertain is what I call a card shark. Not a card sharp. Magicians like Erdnase, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Billy Bishop, John Scarne, Jack Pyle, Myself all card sharks. We can do the moves but we do not cheat with them. I would put Darwin Ortiz into this group as well as Marlo and many others.

Walter Scott, Carl Jackson they could be called card sharps.

Just some thoughts...
[/quote]

Hello Bish,

There is a term in pool (and other games) called "sandbagging" where a player will not play to the best of his ability but will play just under the ability of his opponent. After dropping a couple of games of 9-Ball to his opponent, the sandbagger may coax the opponent into another game or series of games and will ask for a handicap (ie - getting the 8 ball to win). If he is successful, he will most likely clean out his opponent to the tune of about three or four times what he had initially lost.

Do you consider this cheating or fair play?
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Feb 1, 2006 12:05PM)
Is this playing under speed to win more money? And that depends on what you consider - not what I consider as to what is cheating or fair play.

But doesn't this also happen in other sports games as well?
Message: Posted by: Mark Ennis (Feb 8, 2006 10:56AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-01 13:05, bishthemagish wrote:
Is this playing under speed to win more money? And that depends on what you consider - not what I consider as to what is cheating or fair play.

But doesn't this also happen in other sports games as well?
[/quote]

It does happen in other sports (assuming pool, bowling and darts are sports. If so, I guess I am a triathlete). In league play, not only is sandbagging frowned upon, the punishment can be severe (in regards to be punished by a league) - which can result in forfeiting all of the games your team won. In regards to gambling, I think it is a legitimate hustle and a wonderful psychological ploy to get more money. Some people consider it cheating since you are not playing to the best of your ability (perhaps the rules were generated by people that got suckered at one time from a sandbagger).

Bish, I was curious as to how you would view it - regardless of what the league protocol stance may be.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Feb 8, 2006 12:19PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-08 11:56, Mark Ennis wrote:
Bish, I was curious as to how you would view it - regardless of what the league protocol stance may be.
[/quote]
I would view it as advantage play. And using ones ability to play with an advantage over another player. Some people view advantage play as cheating and when done it is most often frowned upon.
Message: Posted by: Jim Morton (Feb 9, 2006 01:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-01-29 04:04, card cheat wrote:
Cardshark : A card player who, while able to cheat via sleight of hand or any arbitrary means, is capable of winning most of the time by legitimate and honest methods. In other words, a good player who only cheats when he/she "has" to.

Cardsharp : A card player who looks to cheat in every card game he/she plays, and not always as good a square player as a Cardshark.
[/quote]

This reminds me of Humpty Dumpty in [i]Through the Looking Glass[/i]: "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

You won't find the above listed definitions in any dictionary. Cardsharp (one word) and Card Shark (two words) mean the same thing. They are both cheaters. As I stated previously, any attempt to separate the words into meanings is the work of the person posting not the real world.

Jim
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 9, 2006 01:39PM)
No a card shark is just a good player. or at least that's what most people call them(card pros) hence the name sharks and fishes
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 9, 2006 02:36PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-09 14:35, Jim Morton wrote:
"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."[/quote]
Exactly: it means what I say it does, neither more nor less. This thread was started with a question posed to MEMBERS; not any dictionary. I think that if the originator of this thread was looking for what it said in a dictionary, it would have been there that he searched. Why don't you relax? I was asked a question and I answered it: with MY answer, not yours.

[quote]
On 2006-02-09 14:35, Jim Morton wrote:
You won't find the above listed definitions in any dictionary.[/quote]
Actually, you're absolutley correct. I didn't look in a dictionary for them. Very impressive work there....

[quote]
On 2006-02-09 14:35, Jim Morton wrote:
Cardsharp (one word) and Card Shark (two words) mean the same thing.[/quote]
Oh, really? I don't think so. Actually, in my dictionary, the American Heritage, "Card Shark" (two words) is not listed. "Shark", on the other hand, is listed and defined as "a greedy OR dishonest person." Keyword, "OR", should I look that up for you too? Say, what is YOUR dictionary called? I would be interested to know.

I will admit that the word, "Shark" as used in this context does have a tendency to bear this type connotation (cheat.) However, I think that even honest card players are a little greedy, no? They want your money, and that's that. Perhaps we should define greedy, Mr. Webster? Popular belief is not always congruent with fact.

Especially in comparison to "Cardsharp" (first written "scearp" in it's original Old English spelling), defined as "an expert in the art of cheating at cards", "Card Shark" can certainly mean something slightly different, right? I said that a "Card Shark" is a player who is aware of, and proficient in, the ways of cheating others but, is an expert at square play as well, so he/she might not always cheat. In other words, he/she is at times (most always) greedy and at times dishonest. Hmmm, what's so askew about this?

On 2006-02-09 14:35, Jim Morton wrote:
They are both cheaters.[/quote]
[quote]
Right. At times the Card Shark will cheat, and the Cardsharp is a cheat by trade. You're catching on rather quickly.

On 2006-02-09 14:35, Jim Morton wrote:
As I stated previously, any attempt to separate the words into meanings is the work of the person posting not the real world.[/quote]
Was a dictionary not written by a human being, like me, from the "real world" or was it bestowed upon us from on high? Was it "magic?" My point is that human beings wrote the dictionary. I don't know know what you mean by "real world" but, if you mean what I think you do, then HUMAN BEINGS are certainly an element of that, therefore I am also of the real world, therefore my definitions are of the real world, too.

Speaking of magic... You are a magician, right? Right. Well, I am a card cheat. Perhaps you should yield where you are less informed than someone who has devoted his life to the study of every facet of this subject. After all, I don't tell you how to define, "expose artist", do I?

At last, all I ask is that you pose not as an authority on matters which you (very clearly) are not. If any of my requests may hereby be so generously granted by you, Sir, please don't step on my toes, as I did not first tread on yours. Learn to think outside of the box, my friend.

Alright, let's hear it. Start typing.... Let's go, let's have a fit....

Card Cheat
Message: Posted by: Jim Morton (Feb 10, 2006 11:15AM)
[quote]Say, what is YOUR dictionary called? I would be interested to know.[/quote]

My main sources are the Oxford English Dictionary and Merrriam Webster Unabrdiged, Second and Third edtions. I am writer by trade, so, believe me, I have spent more time investigating this subject than you might imagine. What I said earlier still stands.

Jim
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 10, 2006 02:19PM)
Dictionary definitions from Nathan Bailey’s Canting Dictionary [thieving slang], 1736:

“SHARPER”
SHARPER, a Cheat, one that lives by his Wits.

“SHARPERS-Tools”
SHARPERS-Tools, false Dice.

“SHURK” a Shark or Sharper

I like this one:
“SHUFFLER”
SHUFFLER, or Shuffling-Fellow; a slippery, shifting Fellow.

Should it be cardShurk I wonder.


http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/dict/

Humbug? Shecoonery? Useless truck or gum? Hornswoggling? Honey-fuggling? Not in this book, dear sir! I swan to mercy, a huckle- berry above anyone's persimmon. Some pumpkins, a caution, 100 percent certified by a Philadelfy lawyer. If not, dad-blame it, I'll hang up my fiddle, and you can sass me, knock me into a cocked hat, give me jesse, fix my flint, settle my hash, ride me out on a rail and have a conniption fit, you cussed scalawag. Now ain't that the beatingest language you ever did hear? Sure beats the Dutch! Pshaw! Do tell! Bully for you!

Easy to see from the above how words like Cardsharp and Cardshark came to be. I think it all depends on what Dictionary you prefer.


Tommy
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Feb 10, 2006 02:27PM)
I have to admit that there are a lot of answers to consider. I only asked the question because of my interest in the promotional use of card shark or card sharp. In fact I used the title Tested Card Work for CARD SHARK magicians for my first DVD.

I and I often use in my magic copy - card shark expo.

I wonder if the words have any difference card shark or sharp for the public or if it doesn't matter?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 10, 2006 04:16PM)
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less." In other words: Humpty Dumpty does not care which is the correct word be it Cardsharp or Cardshark.

Card Shark is classed as one of the top 100 Most Often Mispronounced Words and Phrases in English. See:
http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/mispron.html

There is only one question: Do you agree with Humpty Dumpty?

:)
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 11, 2006 02:18PM)
It doesn't matter you can use them both and no one is going to know the defference
SO I'm going to leave it at that
Message: Posted by: Jim Morton (Feb 11, 2006 09:10PM)
[quote]
Card Shark is classed as one of the top 100 Most Often Mispronounced Words and Phrases in English. See:
http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/mispron.html
[/quote]

Actually, what that web site says is that "cardsharp" is one of the most often mispronounced words. That advice was accurate forty years ago. For better of worse, card shark is now perfectly acceptable. Personally, I use cardsharp, but I think card shark has entered the language at this point. Perhaps someday card cheat will be correct and the two terms will develop more specific and separate meanings. The English language is an ever mutating thing. Terrific, for instance, used to mean something terrifying and English teachers used to complain about the use of the word to mean something wonderful. That is an argument they lost. There are hundreds of examples of these changes that are occuring every day. Most recently, we see the acceptance of "insure" as a synonym for "ensure." And don't even get me started on "begging the question" to mean "raising the question."

Thanks Tommy for the great Canting dictionary link! It made this whole thread worth it! :)

Jim
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 12, 2006 09:33AM)
But since I don't think anyone in the public cares and most people enterchange the two(if they even know both the words) I don't really think its that big of a deal.
IDK just my opinion
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Feb 12, 2006 02:35PM)
Ok... I Googled it...here is what came up:

* A person who is an expert at cards.

* a professional card player who makes a living by cheating at card games

* A card sharp (also commonly known as card shark) is a person who purposely cheats at cards with the aim of making money. Card sharps are also known as a "mechanics" — an older term is "greek".

So I guess the jury is out on whether a card shark has to cheat....he can also be an honest expert with cards.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 12, 2006 02:52PM)
Erdnase does not use any of the above terms, not even ”Cheat”!

Erdnse uses the term the “professional player”.
Message: Posted by: Carlos Lacuna (Mar 2, 2006 10:41AM)
I agree that it's simply an evolution of pop culture vernacular.
The logical progression is as follows:
Cardsharp >>> Cardshark >>> Card'shizzle


It's only a matter of time :)
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Mar 14, 2006 03:42PM)
Cheat: A lowlife piece of $ -- T
Card Shark: As what Card Cheat wrote..
Card Sharp: See definition of Cheat.