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Topic: Should I be angry or just get used to it?
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Dec 31, 2005 05:04PM)
I don't mind paying good money for good effects and the secrets associated with them. However, comma I expect (as new as I am I could be wrong) that when I buy an effect I will receive everything needed to perform the it.

I realize that some things may be "instructions only," but in these two specific instances, I feel a bit ripped off. I don't want to name effects in case I'm off base here, but twice this week I bought two "packaged" effects only to discover that in the instructions they say something like; "in order to perfom this, you need..." in one case, it was magicians wax, and the other it was A WALLET! UGH! Not only a wallet, but one that may not be so easy to find.

Am I totally off base here?

Message: Posted by: Jaz (Dec 31, 2005 05:44PM)
You're not off base and while I don't recall encountering the problem it would anger me too.
In some cases adding info on what is not included and what is required would be nice of the dealers.
Dealers may think that doing this in some cases may border on exposure or something but in your case I don't see why wax and a description or name of the wallet couldn't have been in the advertisement as requirements.

I doubt this will change but maybe you should bring it to the dealers attention.

I'd also suggest that you might email the dealers asking them if everything you need to perform the effect is included. EG: props and even sleight descriptions if you feel it's necessary.
You might also post similar questions here prior to purchase.
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Dec 31, 2005 06:19PM)
Yeah, I realy should be less of an impulse buyer. I really do like the idea of the effect though. Just have to go wallet shopping now :(

I replied to your PM too.

Message: Posted by: HiraseMagic (Dec 31, 2005 10:19PM)

If it's possible, I will suggest you, next time, to buy something in the local magic shop. The sales there may answer many of your questons and they will surely teach you some tricks once you buy that prop from them (even for the wax)!

Message: Posted by: eddieloughran (Jan 1, 2006 04:11AM)
Its difficult to pass an opinion without knowing the "trick" or the price.

I've bought props from two shops in the last week (by post) and in both cases they opened the boxes to check that the contents were undamaged.
However, I don't really think I can expect them to read through the instructions to see if any extra bits are needed.

In future you could ask if all the bits are there when you order it, but I agree that you shouldn't have to and all the bits should be there. Or it should be clear what is not.
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Jan 1, 2006 08:58AM)
Just for the record, I did buy it from a B&M shop. It was however almost an afterthought. I had already paid for one item and did one of those "Oh yeah, do you have...."
Can't blame it on the shop too much. They have been really good to me so far.

Message: Posted by: blindbo (Jan 1, 2006 09:21AM)
If a purchased product doesn't include everything needed to operate it, it should say so on the package, otherwise its being deceptive in its advertising and pricing.
"Batteries not included" and "System requirements" are everyday phrases we understand. Magic often is packaged in a way to keep costs down so the product can be sold to a larger market and won't include any statements of what is additionally needed, if anything, for fear of giving away the method.
I feel if a manufacturer cannot list what is necessary to perform the effect without giving the method away, then it should be included. If they don't include it, then they should list the "system requirements" and take their chances.
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Jan 1, 2006 11:06AM)
I think what you had experienced likely was not quite a rare occasion. No, you really shouldn't feel that you've to get used to a dealer or magic manifacturer's neglect to put down the needed items in order to perform the magic and/or possible deception. Since you really couldn't perform the magic without the other props, if I were you, I would return them.
However, if they are effects that I am determine to perform on a regular basis or to satisfy my own curiorsity then I'd go and hunt down the props. I mean this type of stuff happens, for instance, in card magic dvd. I had to go purchase a blank face/back deck of cards, frogs, stickers, and a deck of Bud playing cards. So I guess it all depends, I went and got all these extra stuff because I love the effects that are demonstrated.
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Jan 1, 2006 11:49AM)
I would have gladly paid the 110 bucks or so to get everything I needed so I could come home and work with the effect. As it stands right now, I can read how to do it but I can't really work on it. Of course, the store is closed on Sun & Mon. I'll be back in on Tuesday. I'll mention it to the owner (in a very nice way as I have been happy with them thus far) and hope they remember to inform the next guy. Of course, they could have been a bit confused since I did buy a wallet (but not one that will work for this effect) at the same time.

Oh well, I still need to get past chapter one in Royal Road anyway. Not like I have nothing else to do :D

Thanks for all the input
Message: Posted by: DanielSteep (Jan 1, 2006 05:56PM)
YES I would sure feel riped off.. especialy if it didn't say befor hand that you would need to purchase other stuff for the effect to work !
Message: Posted by: hobbymagic (Jan 4, 2006 06:11PM)
I believe the same logic applies to DVDs. They should state in their ads (especialy if buying via the internet) that extra equipment is required to preform some of the tricks (ie a flipper coin).
Message: Posted by: Matt Malinas (Jan 5, 2006 11:31AM)
Try getting used to it. it happened to me also a few times. since that time I always ask before I purchase if the "package" includes everything needed to perform.
good luck

Message: Posted by: sethb (Jan 5, 2006 01:25PM)
Instead of getting angry or getting used to it, I suggest you discuss the situation with the owner of the shop where you purchased the item. If the effect was not as represented, he should be willing to take it back and return your money.

Most reputable businesses will stand behind the products they sell. SETHB
Message: Posted by: edh (Jan 5, 2006 06:57PM)
Make note of who is selling the item in question. Also make note of who the author of the item is. Then next time they sell an effect take the advertisement of the product with a huge dose of scepticism(sp?).

Also I believe you should make the magic community aware of what is not included, but needed, in the product.
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Jan 5, 2006 07:34PM)
Well, I am headed back to the magic shop tomorrow. I called and asked about a wallet for the effect, and the owner offered up one of his that he doesn't use anymore. I wasn't even calling to complain about it not being included with the effect. I had planned to just mention it as I buy the new wallet.
Message: Posted by: edh (Jan 5, 2006 09:04PM)
I would still mention it to the Magic Shop. He may start to realize that in order to keep customers satisfied, the products he sells must include all items necessary to do the trick. If not then don't sell the item. He may also contact the author of the trick. In which case the author may start receiving calls from different vendors and act accordingly. If you let things like this go then things will never change.

If you do nothing then your only choices will be to get angry or get used to it.
Message: Posted by: Face (Jan 6, 2006 05:45AM)
If you buy online...allways mail and ask what do you recive exactly. that's what I do to avoid those frustarating moments after ;)
Message: Posted by: blindbo (Jan 11, 2006 07:37AM)
How timely a thread that I would have come across this effect, just recently purchased...
Effect: Spec picks card (absolutely no force). Magi produces sealed envelope with a statement "Mary, you selected the [queen of hearts]."

I won't go into the details of the working, but will say that the very first line of the instructions states: "YOU WILL NEED A CONFEDERATE TO PERFORM THE ABOVE EFFECT." !!!

In another unrelated effect, the magi is holding two cards. One is a double facer and is held under a face down indifferent card. The magi is to take the gaffed card and "pretend to turn it over as you place it without really turning it over, into the spectators upturned palm." Try and get away with that!!
Message: Posted by: Loual4 (Jan 11, 2006 09:59AM)
On 2006-01-04 19:11, hobbymagic wrote:
I believe the same logic applies to DVDs. They should state in their ads (especialy if buying via the internet) that extra equipment is required to preform some of the tricks (ie a flipper coin).

When It comes to books/videos/DVD's, I actually expect to have to buy extra gimicks, gaffs, etc... I take it for granted that I am actually buying "methods" as opposed to actual full effects with everything included.

Which brings me to Jim's complaint... It is 100% justified, in my opinion. Magician's wax could and should have been included. It certainly would not have changed the cost very much. As for the wallet, seeing that some of them can be quite expensive, at the very least, the people marketting the effect should have included a warning: "you need a ***** walet".

Have a nice day!

Louis Jutras
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jan 11, 2006 10:22AM)
On 2006-01-04 19:11, hobbymagic wrote:
I believe the same logic applies to DVDs. They should state in their ads (especialy if buying via the internet) that extra equipment is required to preform some of the tricks (ie a flipper coin).

I'm not sure this is the case. Books or DVD's give a selection of material from which to choose. I've never personally met anyone who does every single thing in a book or DVD they get. For one thing it may not fit their style or be a different skill level at the moment. So long as everything does not need special gaffs I don't see it as a problem.

For example, the classic coin magic book "Bobo's Coin Magic". Did anyone have all the gaffs detailed within when they bought it? No. It's educational, shows what can be done with them, and if you truly like a routine you make the extra effort. For people seriously into coin magic for a while some of these items become utility items that are in their magic arsenal.

I agree when buying a single effect it should be the case, I'm assuming with the wallet it was a Himber which is a pretty standard utility prop that many magicians own, but in fairness the advert SHOULD have mentioned it.

Anyone in magic a while possesses or has owned some of these now standard items. The problem here is that newcomers to magic are often buying things which are really intended for established magicians. People dive straight in rather than starting with texts and DVD's that are more suitable for basic level magic.

Message: Posted by: Brad Burt (Jan 11, 2006 01:37PM)
In every case of selling a magic effect it is encumbent upon the SELLER to give you the full information on what you need for the item you are buying. If something takes some Magician's Wax then they should tell you that and give you the very reasonable opportunity to order some, find it elsewhere or not buy the trick that needs it. You have every right to be angry with your purchase. Best,

Brad Burt
Message: Posted by: Jim Poor (Jan 11, 2006 02:02PM)

I went back and the owner of the shop gave me a nice 'normal' wallet with lots of places to hide the secret to the trick.

When I mentioned my ire at arriving home to find that I could not perform the trick without a wallet that meets certain needs, the response was "wow, I hadn't thought of that since everyone has _A_ wallet, but maybe not one that works." Anywho, I have now ordered a gimmicked magic wallet too, but the one I got from the store works VERY well too.

Message: Posted by: edh (Jan 11, 2006 10:00PM)
Obviously the owner of the shop is first rate. He went out of his way to make you, the customer happy. I would be very happy to continue to do business with this establishment. He knows how to build up a clientelle.

I had bought Twisted sisters by John Bannon. I also bought Queens Out Of Control by Gerry Griffin(sp?). Imagine if all I got were the instructions on how to perform these card effects and not the neccessary items to actually do the effects.

I feel strongly that if the neccessary items to perform an effect are not included with the product then something like "Instructions only" need to be included in the advertisement/description of the product.
Message: Posted by: magicHart (Jan 23, 2006 03:50PM)
Gotta agree with Brad here. Magic is different than almost any other product in that you're purchasing secrets and methods. It is not returnable or exchangable just because you don't like it or want it..or even because you can't do it because you don't know the slights or have the props.

The dealers do have an obligation to identify and inform regarding additional props, or incomplete instructions. It's their business, the're supposed to know what they are selling!! It is also their responsibility IMHO to NOT support those inventors, suppliers or manufacturers who choose to NOT supply such information in their packaging and/or promotional material.
Message: Posted by: jack_is_dead (Jan 24, 2006 11:20PM)
I don't really grumble over dvds so much but if you buy a trick and its incomplete I really think that you should be informed earlier....its a pity that there are many dealers out there that has little care for their part to sell the product..magic is always filled with misleading and insufficient information..and its not cheap..deal with that!!!!