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Topic: Just a video I made..
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 16, 2006 10:00AM)
I have practiced the riffle stack for quite a while now and would like to see how you like it :) don't know if this requires some codecs or anything. Just download VideoLAN client if you cant watch it :) I posted this here for the seek of advice, so its accepted ;-)

EDIT: Maybe you need the link too? :D http://rapidshare.de/files/13404860/Video_1.avi.html
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 16, 2006 02:47PM)
Wheres the video?
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Feb 16, 2006 07:09PM)
Using Rapidshare: go to the bottom of the page. Click on the box that says "free". Go to the bottom of the next page that appears. Wait the prerequisite time. You'll be asked to enter a 3 character password (provided on screen) into the box. Do so and hit enter. Then watch the video.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 16, 2006 08:16PM)
Then say "Thank You" to T. Joseph O'Malley
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 16, 2006 08:48PM)
I got it now it didn't come up with that before
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 16, 2006 11:31PM)
I cant get it to play what player do you guys use
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Feb 17, 2006 02:14AM)
Well that was like... the bare minimum of stacking skills.. only 3 players and only 2 cards.

just a few pointers,
-you need to go way faster on the shuffles, when you get to the actuall stacking part.
- practice stacking 4 cards face up. that way you can stack less cards with less difficulty.
- rarely when playing poker do you find a 3 player game. try stacking with more players.

when I started riffle stacking I started stacking the 4 aces, face up in a 4 handed game. I found this quite easy and reasonable to start with. then you can work your way up after that.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 17, 2006 02:20AM)
Well since most games will be playing texas holdem I like to just do 2 cards face up and then see how many cards I can hold back at one time I find that the more I try the eaiser it becomes to hold back the low number of cards
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 17, 2006 02:27AM)
I just got I to open 10 hours after my first attempt.(lol)
I think when you do your cut then pass you need to do it slower and not leave such a huge gap between the two stacks. it looks like your doing it quickly becasue the cut doesn't matter.
I think the speed is fine it might be a little slow on the first but I think its really the sound that kills it much like the bottom
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 17, 2006 07:08AM)
Well thank you everyone :) Just to mention it I was kinda tired late that night when I filmed that, and I wanted to stack EXACTLY 2 aces because the game was texas hold em. and as steve forte mentions in his GPS tapes: Controlling only one or two key cards in a game can give you a major advantage. Yes, I can stack 3 aces, that's what I have been doing today, and I can stack even four, but I don't kinda like it because I think that in a real game, 4 aces would be suspicious. That I learned actually from Rod the hop. So I decided to stack 2 aces. I know I must go faster, and I am improving every day so far...

I also have practiced the shade switch, I could post a video soon :)

Thanks,

J0ma
Message: Posted by: Chris Stolz (Feb 17, 2006 07:27AM)
You've now got blackack. As time moves on you will be able to add more cards and more hands to the stack for different games. Great beginnings keep it up!
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 17, 2006 07:42AM)
I got this idea yesterday, I started immediately practising it: I stack 3 aces, and get the 2 first for myself and the 3rd comes at the flop so I have a good possibility to end up with a full house :)
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Feb 17, 2006 11:42AM)
Just because you practice stacking 4 aces doesn't mean you have to stack 4 in a game. it means you will be able to do it if nesessary, also it will help you for stacking multiple hands if you ever get into that..for things like double duking.

it has nothing to do with why you would or would not do it in a game, right now it's for practice.

sodman, I totally agree with you on the holding back more cards. at first I had problems holding back 4, cause I was so used to holding back 3 cards, I could do it without looking. I decided it was time to kick it up a notch and try 4 cards... well I couldn't do it well enough.. so I kicked it up 4 more notches and tried holding back 8 and stacking 2 hands at once... I tell you .... 8 is fricking hard... but 4 is a breeze now... second nature.
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 17, 2006 12:15PM)
Excuse me, what means holding back cards? My english is not so good and so, I don't get ur point very well :) that's all beacause I am a Finn :)

Cheers,

J0ma
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Feb 17, 2006 12:19PM)
I gave up trying to see the video...it downloaded and nothing happened.
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 17, 2006 12:35PM)
Wait a second, I paste soon a new link, and a new video too.

EDIT: Heres the new one: http://rapidshare.de/files/13488513/J0ma_shade.wmv.html
And the old one encoded to wmv: http://rapidshare.de/files/13488620/Riffle_stack.wmv.html

Cheers,

J0ma :)
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 17, 2006 03:43PM)
Any comments? :)

J0ma
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 17, 2006 04:04PM)
The hold back cards are the ones which you put between the 2 aces.
for example for 3 people texas holdem you hold back 2 cards.
I don't think there is a need to stack a 5 handed game in one shuffle since doing one shuffle in a game would not be enough although it would be good for pracitce.
Joma you should work on double duking which is dealing a good hand to someone else and an even better hand to you such as AA vs. KK

Ive been working on holding back more but I think 4 is about the most your going to need to hold back since in four shuffles it will stack you whatever you need in a 9 handed game
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 17, 2006 05:38PM)
Ok, I'll give that a try :) I have practiced the shade change the whole evenning :)

Cheers,

J0ma
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 18, 2006 02:54AM)
Any thoughts on the shade switch, I practised it whole last evening :)
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Feb 18, 2006 12:35PM)
Sodman, I mentioned that this is not in game.. mierly for practice... so you get used to holding back more cards. and if you show stacking a 5 handed game in one shuffle, it's just for show. for example I will be doing a poker demo or.. more of a close up show but with every trick geared to poker... I will be doing a lot of real work though, and I will first demontrate stacking a hand how you would go about it in a game. I lose the 4 aces into the deck, then find and stack the aces with 4 shuffles. then I will say, now... we can see how far you can take it. lose all the aces in the middle of the deck again, then I proceed to stack all 5 hands in one shuffle, with the 4 aces falling to my or any hand they like.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 22, 2006 06:10PM)
Its good but the drop in your lap needs to look better.
I would just palm the cards and a little bit and then with the cover of showing the two AA deposit them in your lap.
I'm not a big fan of mucking. its dangerous since if you were in a real game its the only time when you can be caught with evidence on you. I would just keep working on stacking esp. double duking and maby try a bottom deal and some seconds.
post some more and keep up the good work.
if you do try the bottom I would not try to copy anyones style. I have found it eaiser with a lot of move and deffinately with the bottom deal that I should use my own style instead of some pros
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 22, 2006 06:48PM)
There are problems with this muck, and with the way that you are doing it.

First of all, this is a two for two switch. The company would have to be pretty soft and slow to not notice two cards missing from the deck.

The best time to muck in two for two would not be right before you had to show the hand, as this is when you are most likely being burned the most. I have to disagree with Sodman that the best shade for this switch is the showing down of the hand.

If you [i]must[/i] do this switch (and you really shouldn't), try making it a two-handed muck. The problem with the way that you are doing it, is that it looks like you are trying to wipe the table as though it were a bartop. Not very natural, is it?

I, personally, can think of different ways of mucking two for two that would make the actual switch and the clean up appear very natural.

I can also think of better ways to take a game down....

CC
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 22, 2006 11:07PM)
When I said the best way to discard I was talking about not in a game. sorry for the confusion. as I said earler it would be difficult for me to want to muck in a game that is above first graders. Not to say that I cant but I think CC can attest that it is not the safest way to attain the money. I think ill stick to my stacking for now
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Feb 22, 2006 11:49PM)
The only time I would attempt a muck is if I'm at a square table and I have a partner sitting right next to me, and everyone is looking at their hand. so.. heavy misdirection, and a safe angle.. then I'd get rid of the switched out cards as soon as I could.. meaning.. at the end of that round. but I much prefer stacking over mucking any day
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 23, 2006 12:29AM)
I have seen some very nice mucks take place, don't get me wrong. I actually know one player who happens to be one bad mutha-mucka (sorry, I couldn't help it!) This woman, and other cheats who favor playing heavy, will tell you that the move/clean up is a big part of it. They will also tell you that without the proper strategy, solid play, and prudence that the cleanest moves in the world won't help you.

I think that the biggest issue with switching cards is that most who practice this only practice the moves; and usually the wrong moves, at that.

Like I said, there are other ways to take control of a game.

CC
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 23, 2006 12:44AM)
Its not the move that scares me it just that I have cards on me before and after the move. its a lot eaiser to accuse someone of cheating when they have two or three cards in there lap than if you think you saw something
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 23, 2006 08:10AM)
Alright now.. In a real game, first of all, I would not work alone. Then I would do the muck two handed, in action of peeking the cards in texas hold em. Then I must say that its veery slow company where I play :D but just to remember, never underestimate even your smallest enemy
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 23, 2006 09:03AM)
Allright.. here are some new videos.. Please some advice guys :)

2 handed muck with cleanup: http://rapidshare.de/files/13947880/nice_cleanup.wmv.html

Strike Second Deal: http://rapidshare.de/files/13948005/strike_second.wmv.html

Maybe a little hesitation :(

-J0ma-
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 23, 2006 07:00PM)
If your working with a partener then I don't see I really good reason to muck. I mean when your working a lone its nice b/c your not dealing but if your runnning up hands for another person its not a obivious
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 24, 2006 07:42AM)
Yes, the muck was merely for practice, but how about my second deal. I have tested it and it fooled them.


-J0ma-
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 24, 2006 11:55AM)
Try letting the cards sail when you deal your seconds. its good but it needs to look more natural.
the muck was good but let me ask you this. is that what it looks like when you really look at yur cards?
Message: Posted by: halcon (Feb 24, 2006 12:53PM)
Listen to what CC is saying. there is a hidden gem in his posts.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 24, 2006 02:07PM)
CC I don't think anyone would notice 2 cards missing from a deck. maby if your playing with people who hold a deck for a living they might but just a regular joe I don't think could tell. I think it was in the book how to cheat your friends at poker that they guy said 7 was the max you could take.
For me like CC said there are much better ways to take down a game. mucking almost never gives you the nuts and again you most likey don't know what your adversary has in his hand.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 24, 2006 04:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-24 15:07, sodman12 wrote:
CC I don't think anyone would notice 2 cards missing from a deck.[/quote]
Perhaps what you mean to say is that in YOUR game nobody would notice two cards missing from the deck. I, personally, can tell when the deck is one short. Some players can sense the shortness of the deck and some can't; the fact is that no player is going to warn you of their hyper-sensitivity before the game. Do you want to find out the hard way?

Again, some hand muckers are ARTISTS. When the work is done well, and with the neccessary discretion the entire process is a thing of absolute beauty and I respect the executioners of such moves very much so. When the work is attempted by overzeallous neophytes who overestimate their capabilites; it is comical to say the least (and I am ony talking about the actual sleight-of-hand, here.)

[quote]
On 2006-02-24 15:07, sodman12 wrote:
I think it was in the book how to cheat your friends at poker that they guy said 7 was the max you could take.[/quote]
How much of that book do you really think is taken seriously by real cheats? I'll give you a hint: the answer sounds like "hero." The book is sold in Barnes & Noble, man; think about it. The book can be valued, in my opinion (and what do I know about cheating?), for the anecdotes. Suffice it to say that it is not the "how to" manual that it claims to be. Perhaps it should be called, "How to Get Caught Cheating Your Friends at Poker."

[quote]
On 2006-02-24 15:07, sodman12 wrote:
For me like CC said there are much better ways to take down a game. mucking almost never gives you the nuts and again you most likey don't know what your adversary has in his hand.[/quote]

In reality, the best cheating scams and strategies only yield a greater percentage for the cheat(s); not a lock on the pot. In other words, cheating never guarantees a win. I, personally, have cheated and left loser (that's right, I said it.)

What Sodman says here is why strategy and solid Poker play must be used in tandem with good card switching. If your muck does not give you the nuts, then you did it at the wrong time.

Find another way to skin your cat.
CC
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 24, 2006 05:25PM)
The only time I could see cheating and loosing would be if
1) I got incredible unlucky
2)messed up my stacking
3)or if I was down and before I began to cheat I noticed people at the table talking about ortiz or forte or anything that would make me feel uncomfortable enough to not want to pull even the best of my moves
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 24, 2006 06:41PM)
Gee... you must be really good.

Trust me, Sod, all cheaters lose sometimes.

Tell me, what would you do if:

Upon gathering the cards for the next deal, you spot three Aces (everybody loves Aces, right?)

By your chosen method, you stack the cards to fall to you or your takeoff man.

You deal and signal to your man that you stacked trips; in other words, call the preflop action if you have a pair in the pocket. He folds, you screwed up; he calls, it's on.

Let's say that he calls and you have already peeked the top two cards; you see the Ace that needs to hit the board. You deal it out, he makes his hand. Plenty of action, and your man is in the pot (this means he is betting money that his hand will not be beaten.)

Along with the Ace on the flop, you see two suited cards; clubs for the sake of this discussion.

Now, you start to sweat a little because, after you peek AGAIN, you see that the next four cards (at least) are clubs.

Now you have choices:

1) Signal to your man to fold. There are two more rounds of betting and if someone did make a flush, even a low flush, the trips have been trashed (Aces, cracked again!) If you fold, you LOST the money in the pot; even though you save the money in front of you.

2) Let your man play on, hoping that nobody has the flush. If nobody does, then you still have a shot of winning the hand, but not a lock on the pot. In my opinion, even if you win, you are still destined to lose eventually. Why? Because you are CHEATING! Leave the big gambling to the others and play your cards smart; respect your edge.

If you were not cheating, and had not stacked the Aces, would you go head to head with a possible flush? If you say "yes" then you are totally abandoning the golden rule of cheating at cards: be a solid player on the square.

3) Resort to further manipulations to reset the deck; perhaps this would prevent the flush from hitting the board. This is risky because, by this time, other players have certainly folded and might be watching you (players often watch the dealer just to have something to look at.) At this time, you are becoming desperate and taking desperate measures to increase your chances of winning. How far are you willing to go to win a pot? I will tell you this: the prudent, patient, and humble cheat is the one who will last and last and last. Go too far, too many times, and you will end up getting caught. This is a fact.

CC
Message: Posted by: halcon (Feb 24, 2006 07:40PM)
Sodman, CC is right.

check out the action on TV and you will see people hit miracle hands on the river. in a nine player game there are 26 cards in play. that is a lot of cards to have control over. I too, have been burned.

you don't believe me, try this. deal out a nine handed game, face down, with you cheating to get rockets or cowboys. don't look at the other cards but play your cards. peek, base, or deuce the burn and community cards to help you get a good hand. once it's done flip over the other eight hands and see who has a better hand. how many times did you win? how many times did you lose? Sure some of the hands would have folded, but in this scenario the fact that you flipped them over at the end of the round could be made to believe they were bluffing.

Halcon
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 24, 2006 08:11PM)
What was reason number 1
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 24, 2006 08:14PM)
Ive played a lot of poker online and off. I am a well seasoned poker player and am well read on the subject. I understand that it is difficult to win all the time that's why I made a list of the resons in which I would most likely loose
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 24, 2006 08:16PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-24 21:11, sodman12 wrote:
What was reason number 1
[/quote]
What do you mean "reason number 1?"

CC
Message: Posted by: halcon (Feb 24, 2006 08:41PM)
AAHH! unlucky I see. my bad.

none the less try the simulation and check out for your self.

halcon
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 24, 2006 09:15PM)
Read my post CC
and I have dealt out the simulation many a time.lol
I have a computer program that lets you run the simulation over a million hands
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Feb 24, 2006 11:48PM)
I finally was able to download...here are my thoughts:

1) Second deal: I can't see the second...but, the hand action, slow and studied deal is a tell. You may also want to consider sailing the cards vs. laying them down.

2) The riffle stack (video1) looks very nice....I liked the pass too.... you may want to note how natural your deal was on the riffle stack video vs. the second dealing video. If you relax you second deal, it will look more natural.

3) J0ma - Mucking is my my area...but I think I saw thumb movement and even a flash of the card in you left hand.

4) Nice cleanup - I liked it ! ... The only tell was that I did not get the impression that you were even looking at your cards during the switch. If you actually looked at your cards, your fingers and thumb would have behaved differently.

In general...I enjoyed all the videos....I don't know how old you are, but, I think you are young....and considering your age.....you have a GREAT start with a promising future....keep practicing....use mirrors and video.
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 25, 2006 08:27AM)
I currently use mirrors and webcam, and just to mention I am only 13. :)
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 25, 2006 09:42AM)
I made a new second deal video, in which the second deal occurs every 3rd and 5th card. heres the link: http://rapidshare.de/files/14109703/new_second.wmv.html

-J0ma-

PS: Now I tried to sail the cards :)
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 25, 2006 12:01PM)
Ok when you deal the cards they need to move from the deck to the table with out a pause. its hard to say in words but I think you know what I mean.
but I liked the video and your work ethic
keep em comin
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 25, 2006 12:19PM)
Well actually, any ppl stop the card to the hand before they sail it to the player. I deal like that b/c I have seen ppl deal like that and I feel that my second is good like that, but I will try without a pause :D
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 25, 2006 12:56PM)
Yeah but there is a difference between doing it to make it look fair and doing it because you cant do it any other way. just to me it looks kinda fishy but it still looks very good for someone who has not been doing it for very long
once again keep up the good work.

Have you tried to learn bottom deal yet? I find that it is a little more useful than dealing seconds which serve the sole purpose of dealing the top card on the flop when a burn card must be delt first.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 25, 2006 02:50PM)
How useful is your bottom deal when a cut-card is in play?

How much more or less detectable is a base deal than a second deal?

Why is a bottom deal the more sound choice when the ruse requires an accessory sleight like a hop?

Actually, the base deal requires more than just a hop:

cull
short/false shuffle
bottom cop -or-
hop/retention hop (cut-card)
the base deal itself

note: if a cut-card is in play then the deal becomes a Greek Deal and calls for a different rationale.

The second deal requires the following:

peek or, if you prefer (and I don't)
paper
the second deal itself

Honestly, Sodman, which do you really think is more practical for modern day card table use?

CC
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 25, 2006 03:56PM)
They can both still be used to good effect, just not in the typical way you'd imagine.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 25, 2006 04:14PM)
Mr. Z,

I agree with what you say, but whether or not the crooked deals are useful or not wasn't the question. I am well aware that the application of any crooked move is left to the resourcefulness of their employers.

My doubt is that the bottom deal is more useful, by modern standards, than the second deal. My assertion is that it is not.

CC
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Feb 25, 2006 05:47PM)
"More useful" is really a misnomer--false deals have become exceedingly rare in this day and age, but there are always exceptions. I'd imagine this has something to do with the use of house dealers and 24/7 recording.

Years ago when the players could still deal themselves, there was a hustler who famously employed a Greek deal in the Gardena card rooms. He'd peek the bottom card and signal its value to his agent, who'd then decide if he could use it or not. Really quite extraordinary. You'll find Forte mentioning this anecdote in both Phantoms and his CGP book.
Message: Posted by: card cheat (Feb 25, 2006 06:02PM)
Hmmm....you make a good point.

Perhaps you are right; I should say that the second deal is a smarter strategy.

The scam that you mention is similar to one that I use currently in private games. I must say, though, that I have rarely used it with Greek Deals but mostly with seconds. This has been very, very profitable for me, and has been a nice substitute percentage play for riffle stacking.

I have seen hours and hours of footage of cheaters in Gardena card rooms. One that stuck out in my mind the most was a particular hand mucker. She was absolutely amazing; very, very solid. Of course, some of this footage was of folks doing stupid things and getting caught. That was certainly not fun to watch....

Must go now; I am on my way to a game.

CC
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 25, 2006 06:04PM)
Somehow, I decided to riffle stack instead of bottom dealing. I just find riffle stacking more "practical" or something :)


-J0ma-
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 25, 2006 06:16PM)
I agree riffle stacking is for me the best way to gain an edge.
your right CC in a game with a cut card the bottom is usless unless you can execute a greek bottom. but there are always exceptions to everything.
I prefer to gain my advange by playing a few hands a night where it is not possible(very unlikely) for me to loose. durring the other parts of the night I just play a solid game of poker which most of the time will make me the winner regarless of how many moves I pull.

And yes I agree that in a casino seconds would be better since they are much more eazy to conceal.

Joma riffle stacking is goo like I said earleir but it is nice to have a well rounded ability. if you can bottom deal it makes it easeir to double duke since you can just stack the loosing hand and deal the bottom to yourself. also I find a need when in texas holdem to be able to deal seconds and bottoms for the flop turn and river. if you have the balls you can try looking for the card you need and pass it to the top and the second deal the burn card and deal it as well.
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 25, 2006 06:21PM)
I was playing with my friends and we had fun, and they didn't notice my moves at all. I just riffle stacked and won the whole pot :) We werent playing for real money though.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Feb 25, 2006 09:21PM)
You ar bar far one of the better 13 year olds which I have seen...I started when I was 11 years old and was not as good as you by 13....keep up the practice !
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 26, 2006 03:53AM)
Well, I can say that I am very goal-directed when it comes to magic/card sleights. I have a physics test tomorrow and should read but I'm just practicing double duke! :) I will post a video of it soon. stay tuned!

J0ma

PS. Actually all my double duking is thanks to Jeff Wessmiller!
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 26, 2006 05:33AM)
Well well, here comes my new double duke for a 4 handed game. I know that I must go faster with the shuffles, but actually in a real game where I play everyones laughing and so on, so I can atually do it bit sloppy.

Heres the link: http://rapidshare.de/files/14173339/doubleduke.wmv.html

J0ma
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 26, 2006 02:36PM)
Its kinda hard to tell really how fast or slow your shuffling but with a little more pratice I think it will become smoother.
you might be able to get by with it once but if you keep winning people are going to start looking!
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 27, 2006 07:30AM)
Hmm, I would use double duke maybe once or twice in a game :/And I am not saying I don't want/need to improve it. don't get me wrong, I am just saying that this would fly in the home games where I play
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Feb 27, 2006 10:17AM)
Oh yeah I mean I just taken the deck below the table done stacked hands on my leg. and no one cared. then under teh table I took the bottom half and put it on the table and slaped the top back on it. in my experience just about anything will fly in low limit games like 5 10 or even 20 dollar buy ins.
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Feb 27, 2006 10:34AM)
Yeah, I think that too. Just say a line and stack at the same time. that's how I do. But as I said I am improving on the DoubleDuke. :)

-J0ma-
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 1, 2006 09:49PM)
Yep theres not not much that's is better than that move
any new videos?
Message: Posted by: J0ma (Mar 3, 2006 10:48AM)
No new videos now, I don't have a webcam currently.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 19, 2006 03:05PM)
Exllent you might wanna start a new thread it will be easier to find!