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Topic: Amazing Randi
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 18, 2006 10:11PM)
The Amazing Randi is in the hospital, having had bypass surgery recently.

Pray for him, please.

I'm not a big Randi fan. I'm also not an atheist or a skeptic.

I think prayer would do him a world of good.

And then if he survives and recovers -- well, we can always let him know! ;)
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Feb 18, 2006 11:26PM)
It always amazes me that the most vocal skeptics and atheists seem to have "Gosh DARN, I'm bitter, and that colors everything I see!" painted all over them? Of course, they also find numerous things to be justifiably bitter about (thank you very much Jim & Tammy, Pat Robertson et al.)

How about we all choose to "do the Christian thing to do" and give him a prayer or two ... think of him as "the loyal opposition."
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Feb 18, 2006 11:34PM)
I always remember the song (at I do not mean this to be silly or to make light of anything) called, "God believes in you." Lyrics are great, about how we all mess up (again, this is not pointing fingers at anyone but me), again and again, yet through Grace, God believes and has faith in me.

Lift him up boys! Friends lift up a guy, literally, this Sunday, to dig a hole in the roof, "just" to see Jesus.

So, we can lift up another friend in prayer.

RevJohn
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 18, 2006 11:57PM)
Wish him well but don't "pray" for him as I'm sure he'd think it a waste of time and resources. I know I would if I were in the same situation.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Feb 19, 2006 12:50AM)
I dunno if I'm even a big believer in prayer (I think God's gonna do what is best without having to be begged) - but maybe prayer works as much good for the praying person as it does for the "beneficiary".

So who cares if he would think it a waste of time and resources? I'd feel a bit better for having done it.
Message: Posted by: sdgiu (Feb 19, 2006 04:24AM)
Hey Bill

Thanks for letting us know.

We're be praying for him.

Steve
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Feb 19, 2006 06:12AM)
Payne,

I know it seems all "high and mighty" to say, "This person needs our prayers, even though, yadda yadda..." But in the same right, when a person says, "Don't pray for him, because I wouldn't want it done," finds us in the same problem.

You are speaking for him as if you were him. And you aren't.

I guess this has taken more time and resources to say, Payne... just accept that for once a forum that can be full of judgement sometiems is wanting to help a fellow magician they way they know how. You might not agree with it. Fine.

So... You wish him well and I will pray. And perhaps both of us in our own way will help connect whatever healing "force" needs to be connected.

Wishing you well,

RevJohn
Message: Posted by: Leland Stone (Feb 19, 2006 09:26AM)
It is a pleasure and a duty to offer prayers for Randi -- thank you, Bill, for bringing his condition to our attention.

Payne has said that prayer on his behalf during a time of trauma would be viewed by him as a waste of the time of those who pray. Curious.

Perhaps you'll recall an episode of Star Trek in which Spock sees what (he is certain) to be some sort of holographic impersonator pretending to be a revered Vulcan philosopher. The impersonator greets Spock, who refuses to return the greeting, saying, "You are not whom you claim to be."

"That may be," said the impersonator, "But that is no reason to refuse my greeting."

There are Christians who pray for others as a means of expressing some self-perceived superiourity, but there are many others who pray out of heart-felt -- if delusional -- concern. It seems to me that such an expression conveys goodwill, even though it fails to fit the epistemological parameters of the recipient.



Leland
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Feb 19, 2006 11:53AM)
Well, whatever, IT CAN'T HURT! Pray if you are so inclined!
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Feb 19, 2006 01:00PM)
Feeling love, compassion and goodwill is what would make this world the place it deserves to be.
Message: Posted by: Magic Arty (Feb 19, 2006 02:21PM)
Our prayers go out for him.
I find it quite controlling of Payne to tell people not to pray. Wow, that's allowing freedom of expression.
Arthur
Message: Posted by: Bardin (Feb 19, 2006 02:24PM)
Rossmacrae, I don't know where you learned prayer equals begging. In fact when Jesus went off to be a lone he was talking (praying) to his Father. Asking God to fullfill a need is just that asking, not begging.
Message: Posted by: illusions & reality (Feb 19, 2006 03:25PM)
Thanks Bill for letting us know and encouraging us to pray for Randi.

Lou
Message: Posted by: RevJohn (Feb 19, 2006 05:04PM)
Bardin,

While I see what you are getting at, I would like to think that with the humanity of Christ, in the garden, there was some begging.

I like the line from Jesus Christ Superstar, "Whip me, beat me, kill me now, before I change my mind." His prayer that God would take this cup from me.. since we can't read tone in the text, I read it as a plee or a beg.

So, while Prayer doesn't always equal begging, I do think there is a style that equals the intensity of it.

But most importantly, I think that rossmacrae is honest in his post... one can lay it on the line and say, "Well, I don't really know for sure..."

RevJohn
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 19, 2006 05:07PM)
It's never hurt me. It's free. Some believe in it, some don't. I do.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 19, 2006 05:41PM)
Millions prayed for the goodwill of the last pope. He still died.
Over the years people have, against my wishes, prayed for me for various reasons all to no avail. Thus the time and effort it takes to pray would have been better spent on more productive things. Send him a card, make a donation in his name to a charity of your choice. Prayer, well it's the least you can do.
Message: Posted by: rossmacrae (Feb 19, 2006 11:25PM)
Payne, now you got my dander up!

Shall we omit the "needless" niceties - the "thank you", the "excuse me", the "just called to say I love you", because they're not 100% technically necessary? That would make an ugly world indeed.

I often get frustrated when, for instance, we're already late in the morning and my wife worries about which coat she needs when she's not going to take more than twenty steps in it before she's in another nice warm place. THAT's extraneous. But to take a moment to pray (or, if you will, stop just a moment to wish someone well) - what's the beef?

Okay, okay, you can take anything WAY too far ... I see all the good done by someone like Mother Teresa and, in comparison, shake my head in utter confusion at some cloistered sisterly order "devoted to perpetual contemplation, prayer and adoration." What's the blinkin' use? Nonetheless, it's their life to spend, the sisters don't need to pass my judgement to spend their lives as they please, and I don't need to have a "practical reason" to take (literally) 30 seconds to think a good thought for Randi. Maybe tip the Karma his way a little, if you prefer.

A good case can be made that prayer is utterly useless - after all, the opposite of any great truth is often another great truth. But if I choose to spend a few seconds in such an unproductive pursuit (and even suggest that dozens, hundreds, unlimited numbers of others may feel like doing likewise ... heavens, how those wasted half-minutes add up, we might finally conquer world hunger if only we didn't say a prayer for Randi!) hey, it's my 30 seconds to spend. When I get done with life will I feel like saying "Now can I have another 90 years to spend doing what I feel like doing??" Because the answer will certainlyt be "No, pal, that's the lot - now move along."
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 20, 2006 12:09AM)
Allright, I guess I'm wrong on this one.
To make it up to you all I'm going to call a Pagan friend of mine and he'll make an offering on behalf of all of you who are saying a prayer for Randi.
Message: Posted by: revlovejoy (Feb 20, 2006 12:21AM)
You know Payne, I usually enjoy your posts, but you're just being belligerent and picking a fight here.

This forum is gospel magic specific. Bill posted this request here for a reason. He wasn't trying to proselytize.

Look, I'm the first to admit that the biggest obstacle to Christianity is usually my fellow Chrisitians. There are obviously many who have rubbed you the wrong way. I can't do anything about that.

You find prayer a waste of time. Fine. I find golf and NASCAR the biggest wastes of time, money, and resources that exist. But I don't troll on golf sites to ask them why they don't give their land to the homeless, then act all incredulous when on that board, my views aren't as welcome.

You're an intelligent person, and might I add, an adult. Stop with the fake persecution. It's not attractive on you anymore than it is on Falwell.
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Feb 20, 2006 01:44AM)
Regardless of the manner in which it is done, I think a sincere attempt to give someone the gift of feeling loved is always worthwhile.

"I will destroy my enemies by converting them to friends." Maimonides

Useful philosophy.
Message: Posted by: drkptrs1975 (Feb 20, 2006 09:35AM)
I agree.
Message: Posted by: mormonyoyoman (Feb 20, 2006 12:43PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-19 18:41, Payne wrote:
Millions prayed for the goodwill of the last pope. He still died.
Over the years people have, against my wishes, prayed for me for various reasons all to no avail. Thus the time and effort it takes to pray would have been better spent on more productive things. Send him a card, make a donation in his name to a charity of your choice. Prayer, well it's the least you can do.
[/quote]

No wonder it's hard to take atheists seriously. As one who has done a significant amount of work for homeless veterans, I know that it's the ones who pray who are most likely to "send...a card, make a donation" and make a difference. The ones who said "to Hell with the homeless" were the avowed (and loud) atheists.

*jeep!
--Gran'pa Chet
Message: Posted by: Magic Arty (Feb 20, 2006 12:44PM)
I think Payne comes to this site, not to fight, (that seems like a front), but because the Holy Spirit is calling him. As much as he says he hates Christians, I think he hates hypocracy instead. The love of Christ is moving on his heart, and he is finding it impossible to get away from.
In the mean time My prayers still go out to Randi.
Arthur
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 20, 2006 02:38PM)
Payne is a Skeptic. Since he is, his posts in this forum are by their very nature going to call us to task. That's fine. We just need to know who we are dealing with.

But I also pray for all my skeptical friends.

The fact that the pope died "in spite of our prayers" means very little. When your time is up, you are going to go. End of story. I'm sure that as many of the pope's followers prayed for him to have a quiet passage and a happy reunion.

It's very easy to become a skeptic when you see the hypocrisy of some people. We tend to lump all people of a kind together. It's human nature. So non-Christians will tend to assume that all Christians are like, say, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker or Pat Robertson. They aren't. They are just high profile people who have taken up that label.

If I judged everyone of a kind by the worst example thereof, I wouldn't like anyone. I would hate Yankess, Southerners, ALL the races (including mine), rich people, poor people, every religious denomination, and members of every possible business.

A friend of mine used to say, "You can't judge all the members of a particular group by the actions of one member...the magic number is three."
Message: Posted by: Magic Arty (Feb 20, 2006 02:52PM)
Bill, That is very well put.
Arthur
Message: Posted by: illusions & reality (Feb 20, 2006 03:30PM)
Hi Bill,

I didn't know that you were a follower of Jesus Christ. I just thought that you were a good guy. I still think that you're a good guy! Nice to know that you're a friend and a brother!

Thanks for communicating your heart clearly.

Warm regards,
Lou
Message: Posted by: Neale Bacon (Feb 20, 2006 04:57PM)
I think that even Randi would appreciate the gesture of sincere people praying. We know it is much more than a gesture, but if it genuinely and sincerely done with no all-too-typical hypocrisy, I think he would appreciate knowing we care.

He can appreciate people who care even if he doesn't agree with WHY we care.
Message: Posted by: God-glorified (Feb 20, 2006 07:11PM)
Friends, I am encouraged and broken hearted at the same time with this post. I do not promote a "holier than thou" attitude, for I am merely a VESSEL for the use of my master Jesus Christ. But I have been somewhat hurt by some of the things that I have been reading.
I believe the Bible is the Holy Words of God and direction towards HIS people. THe Bible says that "There is ONE God, and ONE mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." Understand, that if you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ you can not expect for God to hear your prayers and respond according to your desires.
ROSSMACRAE, you said that you are not a big believer in prayers. I can see why you say it but I feel that you say it because you are a little confused. Prayer is not mere morals BEGGING for God to do something. Prayer is a REQUIRMENT for believers to communicate with God, the one who created us, not just to complain to HIM, but to praise and thank HIM. You can not have a relationship with anyone without communication, why should our CREATOR be any different?
Philippians 4:6 states: Philip. 4:6
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Philip. 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

We do not pray so that our prayers may be answered according to what we desire, but merely lift our request to HIM so that we may have the peace that God will work HIS PERFECT plan. Yes HIS way is PERFECT.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Some of you were stating earlier that GOD did not answer your prayers when others have prayed for you. If you are a Christian and this is still the case, we have this piece of Scripture to hold on to. Though we may not see his reason for HIS decisions, we may know that all work for good, if we desire what HE wants.
We are being distracted of the true problem here. If Randi was in this terrible situation, we should, yes, be praying for HIS health, but more importantly earnastly pray for HIS salvation as the ONLY way to heave as a doctor would care for a patient's fatal disease discarding a splinter in his finger.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Prayer is not the LEAST you can do but the FIRST thing that must be done. God answers prayers according to HIS purpose and plan, I pray that HE directs me to acknowledge HIS will for my life so I may not miss an opportunity to better serve HIM.
I pray for Ranie's salvation and HIS healing hand upon him until he comes to the Father's saving knowledge as that is the LORD's will. Thus says the Bible.
God bless you all and I hope I have not offended the sincere yet poked at the confused merely for a realization and not for a judgment.
Roger
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Feb 20, 2006 10:49PM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-20 13:43, mormonyoyoman wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-02-19 18:41, Payne wrote:
Millions prayed for the goodwill of the last pope. He still died.
Over the years people have, against my wishes, prayed for me for various reasons all to no avail. Thus the time and effort it takes to pray would have been better spent on more productive things. Send him a card, make a donation in his name to a charity of your choice. Prayer, well it's the least you can do.
[/quote]

No wonder it's hard to take atheists seriously. As one who has done a significant amount of work for homeless veterans, I know that it's the ones who pray who are most likely to "send...a card, make a donation" and make a difference. The ones who said "to Hell with the homeless" were the avowed (and loud) atheists.

*jeep!
--Gran'pa Chet
[/quote]

Wow! What a sweeping generalization and bigotted remark! And not true in my experience.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 21, 2006 01:04AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-20 13:44, Magic Arty wrote:
I think Payne comes to this site, not to fight, (that seems like a front), but because the Holy Spirit is calling him. As much as he says he hates Christians, I think he hates hypocracy instead. The love of Christ is moving on his heart, and he is finding it impossible to get away from.
In the mean time My prayers still go out to Randi.
Arthur
[/quote]
When have I ever said “I hated Christians”?
I’m sure that I would get on swimmingly with most people here on this board and I’m sure all of you are the type of Christians this world needs to see more of.
I just feel that it is a great disservice to Randi to pray for him.
He is a man who has devoted a great deal of his life to the pursuit of science and to promote rationalism and critical thinking. He has relentlessly campaigned against superstition and magical thinking thus to resort to such behavior, unsolicited, on his behalf is to dishonor the causes for which he fights.
If you wish to pray for those who ask, or whose friends or family have asked that is one thing. But to pray for someone who has not asked, nor would they ever ask because they do not believe in such things I feel is inappropriate.
Message: Posted by: triadsong (Feb 21, 2006 08:37AM)
My prayers are with him. He's always been one of my heroes. I can respect his personal beliefs and wish him a speedy recovery.
Vinny
Message: Posted by: sdgiu (Feb 21, 2006 09:16AM)
Payne (and everyone else)
I love my Dad-earthly father, and talk to him every day. I also love God-my heavenly father, and although I use a cell phone to talk to my Dad, because it's long distance, God is right here with me, so I talk to him all day long. Every once in a while we talk about people. Sometimes your name comes up :eek: (and why you hate Christians :wow: :rotf: just kidding, I understand what you are saying).

I figure as long as we're talking anyway, I might as well mention things that friends ask me to talk to him about. I talk to him while I'm driving, on the computer, walking, working around the house, etc... you get the picture. He is my Friend, and I NEVER consider it a waste of my time to talk to a friend. About Anything, at Anytime.

Your Friend
Steve :bg:
Ps I do all this talking quietly, or to myself when people are around, so as not to end up having people wonder about me. Just in case you wondered. :bg:
Message: Posted by: mormonyoyoman (Feb 21, 2006 09:30AM)
[quote]
On 2006-02-20 23:49, Clifford the Red wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-02-20 13:43, mormonyoyoman wrote:
No wonder it's hard to take atheists seriously. As one who has done a significant amount of work for homeless veterans, I know that it's the ones who pray who are most likely to "send...a card, make a donation" and make a difference. The ones who said "to Hell with the homeless" were the avowed (and loud) atheists.

*jeep!
--Gran'pa Chet
[/quote]

Wow! What a sweeping generalization and bigotted remark! And not true in my experience.
[/quote]

Nope, Red. My actual experiences in working with the homeless and raising funds for veterans. Your mileage may vary, but my 50+ years experience is that atheists tend towards the self-centered and bigoted. I was once in that camp myself, and I know where you're coming from.

Isn't it interesting that when someone identifies bigotry, the "offended" party accuses the other of bigotry?

*jeep!
--Gran'pa Chet
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 21, 2006 10:26AM)
Well I haven't worked in a soup kitchen but I give to food and clothing drives, donated money to Tsunami relief and have been known to donate a show now and then to worthy causes. I don't do as much as I should I suppose but I'm far from a self centered bigot.

Bill Gates, an Atheist has several foundations that do charitable work around the world.

Ted Turner, another atheist too has donated billions to world wide relief efforts.

I'm sorry that the atheists you encountered were in possession of the selfish gene. I assure you that we are not all cut from the same cloth.
Message: Posted by: Magic Arty (Feb 21, 2006 01:03PM)
Payne:
I am sorry I accused you of hating Christians. You never did say that. I was wrong to make such a statement.
Arthur Atsma
Message: Posted by: Neale Bacon (Feb 21, 2006 02:16PM)
My understanding is that Randi has always fought frauds and rightly so. I don't believe he has ever "gone after" people who are sincere in their beliefs.(ie Billy Graham)

I still say, with respect to Payne, that Randi would not be bothered by sincere people praying for him if it IS genuine and done with love and respect.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Feb 21, 2006 03:34PM)
Randi mentions prayer in this interview. I cut and pasted this from the whole. It is found on http://www.ghostvillage.com/legends/2003/legends21_06282003.shtml

************

When trying to prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural, you are shaking the very foundations of people's belief systems. Questioning the validity of religion, for example, is something that many people don't take kindly to. After all, some people partially define who they are by their religion. So does religion have a place in our society? "Yes, a lot of people absolutely require it," Randi said. "They haven't got the faith in their own abilities, they fear the future, and they are very hesitant to assume that anything that they can decide will be better than some deity who knows everything. Of course, my argument is if the deity knows everything, he would have told you. Not only that, if he's omnipotent, nothing you say or do in the way of prayer is going to change his mind, and since he's omniscient, he already knows whether you're going to pray and what you're going to say when you pray. It just doesn't make any sense at all to me."

*************

And if you go to this link, you will see more of his thoughts on prayer from his newsletter.
http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-01/010606netherlands.html#i13
I cut and pasted the following from the last three paragraphs.

*************

And I must note here that when the first news came out on the NBC-TV Today Show about the disaster, the governor of West Virginia began his comments with “Here in West Virginia, we believe in miracles, and we’re praying for the miners.” When the first report was made that all 13 had survived, people were quick to attribute it to God. One miner's young wife, 27, clutching her baby girl, said, "It just shows you enough prayers went out. It's a miracle." And, President Bush said, “We send our prayers…” On that same program, there was an item about a woman who’d won a huge lottery prize. The first words out of her mouth were, “God has answered my prayers!” Forgive me for not grasping the situation here: are we to believe that God ignored all the prayers for the trapped miners because He was busy arranging for that woman’s lottery number to be chosen? And to the young mother: do you suppose there weren’t quite enough prayers, or your husband would still be alive, and is that the miracle you cite? God allowed the miners to die because the pleas for mercy directed at Him weren’t properly phrased, while the lottery winner’s prayers were better formulated? Just what are this deity’s priorities?

Maybe He doesn’t care, at all.

Maybe He isn’t there…

*************

Terry
Message: Posted by: God-glorified (Feb 21, 2006 07:51PM)
I hope Randi will read my post. Not to be self centered but there is a lot of answers to many concerns.
Message: Posted by: Maro Anglero (Feb 21, 2006 09:39PM)
Bill thank you for letting us know, I will pray him.

Maro
Message: Posted by: sdgiu (Feb 22, 2006 06:56AM)
Hey Bill
Any updates on TA Randi's condition?

Terry

He is there, and He cares.

Not sure where you are coming from, but it is natural/automatic for "alot of us" to attribute good things to God.

Just because someone makes a loose statement with Gods name attached to it, doesn't necessarily mean that God personally took a hand in it, or actually had "Anything" to do with it.

Making silly correllations does nothing but confuse an issue. With math, correllations can be "Proven" that 1+1 doesn't equal 2. That doesn't actually make it so, it is just a silly math trick that people with too much time on their hands have come up with, to amuse other Mathematicians.

Stuff happens that we don't always understand. It's good to know that God does understand.

Steve
PS continuing to pray for him.
Message: Posted by: Magic Arty (Feb 23, 2006 05:31AM)
Steve, I believe that Terry was posting a quote from "Randi" that was published recently.
Randi's statements create questions about the character of God, or for some, question his goodness and love, or even more, question his existence at all.
I cannot begin to explain all the awful things that happen in this world, however, I do know without a doubt, that God is in control, and he does work out all things for his glory. My judgement is limited, so I am not going to judge God on things that appear to me to be unfair.
In his own case, He put condemnation on his own son for the sake of the world. A complete innocent bore the brunt of all the wrong of all the world. That does not seem fair to me either.
Arthur
Message: Posted by: Missing_Link (Feb 23, 2006 07:26AM)
[quote]
You find prayer a waste of time. Fine. I find golf and NASCAR the biggest wastes of time, money, and resources that exist. But I don't troll on golf sites to ask them why they don't give their land to the homeless, then act all incredulous when on that board, my views aren't as welcome.
[/quote]
You should - and don't forget that they also impose environmental homogeneity, destroying bio-diversity.
Message: Posted by: Waters (Mar 21, 2006 05:36AM)
Well said Magic Arty.

My wife and I prayed for Mr. Randi last night.

It was on of his "expose" features (maybe on sixty minutes) that got me started in mystery performing years ago. For that I am indebted to Mr. Randi. We wish you a speedy recovery.

Sean