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Topic: You'll never beat poker robots!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 26, 2006 07:08AM)
You'll never beat poker robots!

What do think of this?

“One expert in this powerful new software, 'Chopper', tells me, 'It's amazing to think of how much we gamble on online poker sites - mainly because there is no such thing as a fair game of online poker. It just doesn't exist. The game is completely corrupt; it has zero integrity. Online players are secretly using every means at their disposal to fleece you --and at the forefront of their campaign is the use of poker robots. When all this becomes public knowledge, the amateurs will leave and the game will die.'

Full article can be read here:


Message: Posted by: Daegs (Mar 26, 2006 03:13PM)
I think to assume by now that the popular online gambling sites aren't filled with collusion or other forms of cheating is foolish.

Unless the popular sites have super neato algorithms, all you need is an anonymous proxy and a couple different computers to get a serious edge, not even mentioning poker robots....(though if you know how the robot is programmed, you can obviously beat it... find its weakspot and take them for all the robot has)
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 26, 2006 10:50PM)
Anonymous proxy wont work. on some sites they will not even let you play will one. it is not as eazy you many people think. collusion is eazy to dectect. I mean you can tell when two or more people are working together and keep showing up at the same tables all the time.
Message: Posted by: Alewishus (Mar 26, 2006 10:50PM)
That's the problem with poker robots - you can't drag them out into the alley and break their fingers!

Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 26, 2006 11:23PM)
But you can f*** with their programing. but if your good enough for that then you good enough to see the cards!
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Mar 26, 2006 11:52PM)
Anonymous proxy won't work? um... dude there are levels of anonymous proxies, use proxy judge or comparable thing(or just setup your own proxies...

there are plenty of ways to mask proxies so that they cant tell its a proxy.

Collusion may be an easy thing to detect, but are they doing that? I havent seen anything where the post their algorithms for detecting cheating or post how many cheaters they are finding... are they actually tracking peoples betting strategies or who they match up with?

I think the fact that we don't know the answers to these questions actually answers them for us...(and its not a good answer).

Finally, if you have 5-20 accounts that all play in the same limit range, it should not be hard to match them up in rotation so collusion would not only be hard to detect but even harder to prove, especially if you were able to bot them to play alone even if they lose a little money per hour, it might throw anyone looking for collusion off track.

I'm in the CS industry, don't tell me this can't be done....
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 27, 2006 02:48AM)
I have never played on line. It all sounds a bit scary to me. I would not mind running one of these online casino's. From what I can gather you don't even need a licence? How much would it cost to set one up? Although I don't know much about computers myself, I do know some experts who would help me.


Just found this:

Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 27, 2006 10:16AM)
Poker site comes down heavy on shady play
Cheating at PartyPoker
PartyPoker freezes $180,000 winnings from player’s account
By PokerPlayer March 2006

The outing of top ranked player JJProdigy as a tournament cheat has rocked the online community. The successful player has had $180,000 frozen after accidentally revealing he was playing with two accounts during a $500,000 guaranteed tournament on PartyPoker.com in February.

When new player ABlackCar reached the final 30 of the big money tournament on February 12 he let it slip that he was actually more widely known as JJProdigy – who had also been playing in the tournament.

An investigation launched by PartyPoker.com found that both accounts had been used from the same computer simultaneously in a number of tournaments this year – a major infraction of the terms and conditions of all poker sites.

PartyPoker.com closed both accounts to the tune of $180,000, the majority of which is likely to be refunded to players cheated.

JJProdigy claims that he made the second account for his grandma: ‘[ABlackCar] was made for my grandma for her birthday present. However, it was never given to her. So I had an extra account.’ And he freely admits he multi-tabled in posts he made on poker forum, http://www.pocketfives.com.

A PartyPoker.com spokesman said he was unable to comment as the investigation was ongoing.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Mar 27, 2006 11:47AM)
Great.... so that is a case where the guy actually admitted it, and had $180,000 of other players money?

What about *ALL* the cases where the person doesn't *tell* people that he is cheating?

The fact that their big story is a case of the criminal basically turning himself in, instead of the result of investigations speaks volumes in my mind.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 27, 2006 11:57AM)
What a moron. I bet he wasted thousands of hours for nothing.

yeah it can be done for sure. but if it can be done PP is where it would happen. that place is a mad house
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 27, 2006 12:06PM)
What a laugh, the guy had to admit it on the chat box that he was playing two accounts, nothing in Party Pokers suposed "anti-collusion" software even came close to picking the guy up.

If you think that the poker sitets software is capable of detecting high end cheating, you're dead wrong.

Much like in real life, you only need to win one or two big hands in any given cash game to come out with the money, the software doesn't even have a chance to pick this kind of thing up.

What it does pick up is the kids who run two computers, one on their phone lines, and one on their cable hook up, these kids sit both accounts down at the same table and make the kinds of bets and folds that the software picks up.
The kids get their 100 bucks frozen, but meanwhile, the pros are taking you for thousands of dollars.

The ONLY way to know you're not being cheated is to stay on tables that are under a dollar for the big bet.
As soon as you get into even a 1-2 table, there will be cheaters present.


You've got to bet very small, or very big. On the huge money cash game tables, most have got a site "host" watching the game full time anyway, and they are usually experienced poker players who know what to look for.
On the small money tables, it's just not worth while for the cheat.

On big money tournements online, you're probably only going to be watched closely after they've gotten down to five or so tables, before that the tourney's are full of cheats running two or more online ID's at the same time.
Even if they don't have both computers running at the same time in the same place, you can expect that many players sitting at the same table are running third party chat software at the same time as they're playing, and letting each other know what their hands are, and how they each will bet.

Not that a bricks and mortar game is totally safe, but it's a whole heck of a lot safer than any given online game.
You may only play half the hands in a B&M game, but over time you'll probably have actually made more money by not getting cheated on the one or two huge pots per game that most players get into.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 27, 2006 12:23PM)
They only way this guy was beating the game was in a 500 buy in tounry. do you know how hard that is? there might be 100 tables of people playing, he has to get two of his names to teh same table(which is luck) or get both of them down to the final table. this is not that great of a plan. I mean it is an advantage but only if your already a fantasic poker player and you got about 10,000 of buy ins to loose. this is why he wasnt picked off. its much easier to get caught in a cash game not immpossible to get away with but much eaiser. the best way of course is to find away to see the cards on the screen. I know of one way but its difficult and only would be difficult to enable it to work on more than one person
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Mar 27, 2006 02:17PM)
Huh what do you mean see the cards on the screen?

AFAIK, poker software won't transmit the cards to any of the clients except board and their own cards...

sure you could run spyware or a packetsniffer on some of your opponents to peek their hole cards, but you still wont know whats coming up... and if you are at the point of executing code on their PC, just get their account info and take the money directly....
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 27, 2006 03:01PM)
Packetsniffing is too slow. you would have to have a super computer.
I'm talking about if you could hack into a poker site the site. I don't know a lot about this stuff but that would allow you to see the others cards
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 27, 2006 07:45PM)
That is what I meant about owning the online casino. The owners might be able to see hole cards or even the guys who just work there. What stops them putting their player at the table and telling him the hole cards etc? Who gaurds the gaurds is an old question.

Also it seems they are above the law. You will note in that case it is they who do the investigation and therefore they are like the judge and jury about who is cheating. So what happens if they decide to cheat? With regard to workers there: In real casinos the big scams have been pulled of with inside help.

I would not trust these online casino's as there is too much we just don't know.

Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 27, 2006 08:44PM)
Yeah tell me about it. there all based in other countries so there not really anything they cant do.
BTW what happens if you get caught cheating online. anyone know?
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 27, 2006 08:49PM)
On 2006-03-27 20:45, tommy wrote:
What stops them putting their player at the table and telling him the hole cards etc?

Nothing stops them Tommy. They are regulated mostly by gaming laws on First Nations land reserves in Ontario and Quebec in Canada.
That's what the Kanawakee Gaming Commision (spelling) actually is, a First Nations administrative group.

Presumably the fact that they couldn't survive the bad publicity resulting from getting caught is what keeps them honest, but who really knows.

As soon as you sit at a 1/2 table you're going to get cheated by somebody, whether they're associated with the poker site or not.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 27, 2006 09:23PM)
What keeps the guys who just work there honest? Just like real casino dealers have cheated for the money so will the online casino worker if he thinks he can and get away with it. It's fair comment though to say the owners might not think it is worth the risk of cheating.

I don't know what happens to a player if he gets caught cheating online. It seems they just ban them and keep their money.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 28, 2006 05:17AM)
Well it not like the online casino keeps a giant tv screen with the whole cards of a table on the display. I doubt at all if the cards could even be predicted. I think they are chosen at the instant that the call is made. so once again its not as eazy as it seems.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 28, 2006 07:01AM)
Yes but predicting cards is the not the same as seeing what the hole cards are that have already been dealt. I do not know but I am guessing, if the player can see his hole cards why can’t they who are running the game.

As for predicting I think, some guys did do just that some years ago. My limited understanding is the computer does not shuffle a virtual deck, but it picks one out at random from 1000s of shuffled decks. . Imagine a big circle of shuffled decks each at a certain position like the numbers/divisions on a clock, the clocks hand spins around points to a deck. Each hand it picks a different deck and that deck is dealt but after the hand is dealt, that deck returns to the same place on the virtual clock it came from and it is in same shuffled order. By Timing the spin they knew which deck it picked then it was a matter of keeping a record of the decks position and the order the deck was in. Therefore, when they knew what deck the computer picked then they knew the order and was able to predict every card before it was dealt. They now say they changed the way it works but I bet some one will have a found new way to beat it.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Mar 28, 2006 09:44AM)
Things in the world of computer card decks are far more complex than one might imagine.

Absolutely nothing is known about the cards prior to them being dealt.

It's the actions of each and every player that feed back to the randomizing algorythym the information it needs to make the next random choice.

The players actions are timed to the microsecond, and those timings are the key data for the computer deal.

Because people all dwell on their cards for different times, and because there are inherant latency issues with the internet, there is no way that anybody can predict what the randomizing algorythym will do at any given time.

I supose any computer application can be defeated though, so it all comes down to their security and their will to secure their poker sites from other cheaters.
Message: Posted by: sodman12 (Mar 28, 2006 03:07PM)
Yeah you would have to access the code from inside, which would be possible. I really doubt that a owner of an online casino would risk the reputation of the casino when he is already making so much money. there is really no reason for him/her to put in the extra time for just maby at the most 100 grand. online casino make millions without breaking a sweat.