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Topic: Can you hypnotize someone without pre-talk?
Message: Posted by: hypnotize (Apr 9, 2006 10:04AM)
Suppose you are a top notch hypnotist, with great presentation and showmanship skills in hypnosis. You drive to another country and meet someone you don't know. Can you hypnotize him without talking about hypnosis/trance states beforehand? what about shock and rapid inductions? are they harder to accomplish without pre-talk?

Can you walk up to someone who doesn't know who you are and just hypnotize him on the spot?
Message: Posted by: Celloboy (Apr 9, 2006 11:20AM)
Now that depends. Difference in languages can make hypnoisis harder. But hypnotising someone I don't know has never been a problem for me. It just depends on how good you are at spotting people who are suggestable
Message: Posted by: Poliphilo (Apr 9, 2006 11:34AM)
We spend the majority of our daily waking life in a natural state of trance. Imagine standing at the side of a busy road waiting for a gap so that you can cross safely, you are effectively in a natural state of trance. Therefore you are halfway between normality and a hypnotic state of trance.

This is extremely unethical, but if someone were to be standing behind you and used a shock induction, you would become hypnotized instantaneously.

As I have been witness to this being performed, the answer to your question would be yes. The person whom was hypnotized did agree beforehand to this experiment being carried out, so this example was ethical.

I would *not* advise carrying this out on some poor unsuspecting person, you may probably end up with sore apendages.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 9, 2006 12:07PM)
Without a lot of double talk, yes and no.
Message: Posted by: hypnotize (Apr 10, 2006 02:24AM)
Danny, Can you please elaborate?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 10, 2006 02:34PM)
There is nowhere near enough room to do so.

but let me say under the right conditions with the right subject, easily.

On the other hand, a just as strong NO without those things.
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Apr 11, 2006 01:34PM)
Yes. While examples abound and techniques are abundant, I will use one notable example here.

When the European magnetic movement reached England, it impressed a young doctor, Esdaile, who became perhaps the most famous of all English mesmerists, so much so he decided to use the concepts on his patients in India.

The physical technique he used was strikingly different from his European counterparts; namely, it didn't use the same palm-down, palm-up movement over the body, and he often worked from behind the patient.

I like Esdaile as an example because his cures were so remarkable they are still mentioned in many, many med school programs today. And he didn't speak Hindi (and his patients were often too poor to know English). The patients simply came in and were treated. No pre-talk. Actually, no talk at all.

The talking came in around the same time. The braidists in England mingled much with the Spiritualists, and "talking" became the thing to do, which still affects our perception of hypnotic procedure today.

Best,
James.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2006 06:40PM)
If you want to do it without a pre talk, then how exactly are you to comminicate what is about to happen?

Under what conditions are you speaking of is the real question. I can name numerous circumstances under which it can be done and many more under which it is completly impossible. I seem vague, but really the question is quite vague.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Apr 12, 2006 01:20AM)
Pretalk=increased expectation. Increased expectation=increased probability of successful trance induction.

So, one has to ask: why would you want to eliminate something that actively increases your chances of successfully getting your volunteer into hypnosis?

One also has to ask: why would you want to hypnotize someone who is unaware of wht you are attempting in the first place? Do you believe that such a move is ethical? And how would YOU feel if someone were to attempt that kind of thing with YOU?

Honest questions, but I would like answers to them before taking this thread any further, myself.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: hypnotize (Apr 17, 2006 02:34AM)
Thanks for all the comments.
I asked this question out of pure curiosity, and because hypnosis fascinates me. Actually, the human mind.
Why is it not ethical to surprisingly hypnotize people if they cannot do anything against their will? if you say the mind is on guard all the time, what really can happen?
As the books say, people's consciousness bounces into hypnosis and out all day long. Of course they choose (or do they?) that, but it's like telling me not talking to strangers because it's unethical.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Apr 17, 2006 02:51AM)
Hypnotize, have you ever heard the word "abreaction?" It is something that can happen to anyone who is not careful in working with hypnotic volunteers. An abreaction is an unexpected reaction to what may seem like an innocuous suggestion and which triggers a completely unexpected and often highly emotional response, such as a phobia/panic reaction, crying, hysteria or regression to infancy.

If the hypnotist does not know what to do when this happens, this can be very upsetting to anyone in the area, especially the person that it's happening to. And when someone gets very upset, in modern societies, they tend to turn to one of two responses - litigation or violence.

Either way, you, as the hypnotist, are in for a rough time.

Also, there is a thing called "politeness" that enters into such human interactions. Politeness is a part of the ethical structure that hypnotists work within. When first working with someone, it is di rigeur to ASK permission before attempting to induce hypnosis in all but very specific emergency situations. And those are rare, indeed.

In fact, in almost forty years of practice, I have run into only one situation where such an induction MIGHT have been appropriate - and that was in an Emergency Room in a major medical center where I was aksed to do so by the attending physician!

Remember, ethics goes beyond simply the question of whether someone will be harmed by what you do or not - MUCH further.

Consider it this way - you are walking down the street and someone comes up to YOU and hypnotizes YOU without so much as a by-your-leave and has you do something harmless, but mildly silly. When it's over, how would YOU FEEL?

I believe that best answers your question with regards to the ethics issue.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: hypnotize (Apr 17, 2006 04:34AM)
Lee, thanks for the answer. I feel lucky that I can talk with an experienced hypnotist.
I am a very ethical, lawful and respectful person. As I said, my intents are purely scientific/ knowledge biased. I also believe that whatever you do to someone comes back to you 10 times harder. I believe in nature. So it has to be that way. My curiosity arises when reading your posted FAQ. You say I am in complete control when I am hypnotized, and I decide whether I lose control or not. And you also say that surprisingly hypnotizing someone without pre-talk, decreases the hypnosis effectiveness. So how can I trigger someone's emotions and make him cry like a baby within seconds without him knowing me or my hypnosis background? Isn't he in full control and aware? isn't it against his will?
Of course, if I approach someone from the back, shout at his ear or scare him - he will be scared, he will jump. And if he just came out of nervous brakedown or he his clinically depressed, I might trigger some heavy emotions in him. But that's just bad luck. And anyone can scare people away. In your FAQ you say that everyone can be hypnotized, and many people can learn to hypnotize. So what did Im miss?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 17, 2006 03:05PM)
My first thought is a LOT.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Apr 18, 2006 01:46AM)
Hypnotize, your questions are very excellent and, unfortunately, would take the better part of a book to answer adaquately. I know that probably reads like a cop-out, but I am trying to give you the straight goods.

Here's my recommendation - find a copy of General Techniques of Hypnotism, by Andre Weitzenhoffer, MD and go through it. It covers these questions far better than I could possibly do in the short amount of space allotted here in this forum.

Suffice it to say that emotions are tricky things to deal with and evoking emotional responses, especially in the hypnotic state, is not something that should be done without proper training, especially in how to avoid the possibility of accidentally triggering an abreaction or without knowing how to handle an abreaction if one should occur.

That's the short-form answer.

Remember, even though a person has free will, not everyone has complete control over their emotional responses. And therein lies the potential for a LOT of issues to happen during any hypnotic experience. Note - I used the word "issues," NOT "problems." Issues involves reactions that can be dealt with and which may or may not be problematic in and of themselves. Problems start out with you in deep kim chee (kim chee, korean, n. def. looks like cole slaw, tastes like napalm) and usually gets worse before it gets better.

That's more of the short-form answer.

I hope this helps a bit more.

However, let me cite an example - think of a time you went to a movie - a really emotional movie. It doesn't matter what the movie was about. How well did you control your emotions AT that movie?

If you are like most people, you responded on an emotional level at least to some extend, during the movie, even though, on some level, you knew that you were really sitting in a big, dark room, with a bunch of people you didn't know, watching a bunch of flickering lights on a big, white sheet in front of you and listening to a bunch of noises coming from some electronic devices that were jammed into the walls.

Yet, there you were, cheering the hero, getting tense at the scary parts and maybe even shedding a tear at the emotionally sad parts.

That's what I am talking about and what happens in hypnosis. The emotions are NOT necessarily subject to conscious control either IN or OUT of hypnosis. But in hypnosis, emotional responses are often amplified as some inhibitions about EXPRESSING them seem to be lowered in some individuals.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: hypnotize (Apr 18, 2006 04:33AM)
Lee, thank you for the profound answer. It was very informative.

Hypnotize
Message: Posted by: Johan_ (Apr 18, 2006 01:03PM)
Does anyone know any godd site where I can read a little more about Hypnotize and maybe learn the basics??
Message: Posted by: Vanian (Apr 18, 2006 03:17PM)
[quote]
On 2006-04-18 14:03, Johan_ wrote:
Does anyone know any godd site where I can read a little more about Hypnotize and maybe learn the basics??
[/quote]

http://www.howstuffworks.com/hypnosis.htm
Message: Posted by: mesmer (Apr 22, 2006 10:21PM)
Yes you can do it without PRE TALK....provided you are very famous Hypnotist...in other word the subject must know your credentials and ability...it help them to become more sugestible....but still there is a chance you might fail...if it fail...act as if its just a test of imagination...just like when I fail to do Psycological Subtelties(Carrot, Blue, King of Heart, etc..)...then I move on to my standard slow...progresive relaxation, or I choose different person
Message: Posted by: JAlenS (Jun 28, 2006 01:46AM)
What are you people talking about? It sounds very interesting. I have to admit that I have never been hypnotized (to my knowledge.;)) and don't believe I can be but would like to know more. I recieved The "Master Method" of Hypnotism by Ormond McGill as a freebie from someone who was late shipping an ebay item. I read it but nothing really looks like it will work.
What is this natural state of trance we're all in when we're waiting for a gap to cross a busy road? Why does this sound dangerous if it's real? I've seen a couple of professional hypnotists in group hypnosis shows and I interviewed a couple of people that went up on stage but I still wonder if it was real.
Maybe I was trying to see things through a magician's eyes trying to figure out how it works but could not.
Message: Posted by: TheAmazingSteveo (Jun 28, 2006 09:19AM)
You can put a person into a deep state of trance by using interrupt methods .. such as the Handshake Interrupt or Pattern Interrupts. Richard Bandler who is one of the co-creator's of NLP shows you how to do this on many of his video tapes. He scientifically studied Psychiatrist Milton Erickson and how Milton did hypnosis.

Many behaviors that are programmed into us where we are more on automatic .. such as putting out our hand when somebody suggests that they want to shake it as an introduction .. is automatic .. we don't think about it. We don't think about putting our keys into our cars to open the doors or turn the key to start the car. If these automatic type of behaviors are interrupted then we tend to go into a deep trance until the behavior is allowed to complete. Many catatonic people in mental institutions had some dramatic event happen to them when they were in a process of doing one of these automatic types of behaviors .. such as scratching their back etc. and some event occurs and blocks that automatic behavior from occurring. There is a method of blocking a handshake in a way that the person will go into a deep trance .. without saying a word.

Write me if you have anymore questions about this.

A litte bit about my background: I was a clinical/behavior psychologist with a total of 15 years experience with the state's of Michigan, Kansas, SC and NY. I also was a research scientist at the Bur. of Child Research in Parsons Kansas - University of Kansas. I am certified as a hypnotist by the Nastional Guild of Hypnotists.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 28, 2006 11:47AM)
Problem with "pattern interupt" is not all patters are universal.

Try the handshake nonsense on someone NOT conditioned to shake hands and you look like a complete idiot.

Handshakes are a LOT LESS PREVELANT in society than they used to be. Sorry to be the one to inform you guys.

NOT every handshake interupted results in deep trance. No matter what anyone including Erickson, or Bandler tell you.

I have seen them try this handshake stuff on people with no expectation of hypnosis and stood there looking pretty stupid.

Really my point is you should know better than to speak in absolutes when speaking of the mind. Trance is still voluntary no matter what. Interupt all the patterns you want on me and if I don't want to be in trance, then guess what?

The biggest reason for the pre talk is to establish a relationship of trust. You do NOT get to the deepest levels of trance without it. Again remember hypnosis is a voluntary condition where the rubber meets the road.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Jun 28, 2006 03:12PM)
That's right...danny your NOT in a trance...aren't you? nice to let that thought drift through your mind...

Thoughts of rubber meeting the road... and hands not being able to shake...I mean what good is that?

Don't trust anyone who volunteers to hypnotise you by putting a rubber on......

the road..and yuk don't shake his hand or rubber..

Shrink
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jun 29, 2006 08:15PM)
A hypnotic trance CAN be induced without a pre-talk, easily. Bridging from ideomotor tests, without mention of hypnosis to an instantaneous induction method after several positive responses is one way to do it, cleanly and easily. However, there IS a potential for failure and for abreaction that is present - the person that one is working with MAY become disoriented or panic, depending on the induction used and, at that point, things can get messy on an emotional level.

Just some additional information.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Jul 2, 2006 12:52PM)
Why would you want to drop the pre-talk. I made that mistake at a college show. It was outdoors on the track. I was late starting the show due to the lateness that I had to deal with in getting started setting up. I had changed clothes and when I came back the bleachers were filled and you could cut the air with the anticipation. I was a little unnerved with my being late and made the mistake of just thinking they were ready to go. Big mistake. It was a really hard time of getting volunteers to come down (I hadn't created the desire due to no pretalk) and the induction was a real bear. It was more work than I had ever experienced in the induction and of 15 chairs I only kept 5. 3 were really under and two were uh. I would never drop the pretalk or try to work without one again.

Martin :pirate:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 2, 2006 02:52PM)
Martin it has degreaded into a hypnotic "theory" debate, not really a practical one.

Your question is valid. WHY WOULD YOU>?
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jul 3, 2006 02:52AM)
Martin, the original question wasn't about doing a show, but, as I read it, a one-on-one induction, without a pre-talk. I contend that it is perfectly possible and I also agree with you that doing a show without a pre-talk is a self-defeating action. No question about it.

How's that for a win-win response? ;)

Happy 4th!

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: hypnofande (Mar 10, 2013 07:45AM)
When I did my stage hypnosis training I was told that the pre-talk was the most important part of the show - even more important that the induction itself.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 10, 2013 11:28AM)
It is.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Mar 10, 2013 11:59AM)
I agree with Lee. It is perfectly possible to hypnotize people without a pre-talk. Some people may be less easily hypnotizable without it, but it's certainly possible. Sometimes, as an emergency technique using hypnotherapy for immediate physiological change (such as to slow or stop bleeding), it's necessary.

When it comes to doing a show, however, the answer, I believe, is that you should consider it a hypnosis SHOW rather than a HYPNOSIS show. By that I mean it is the show part that is the most important. Setting up potential actors for greatest success includes the pre-talk (which is different than a hypnotherapy pre-talk). It functions like the person who does a warm up before a TV show. Sure, you could do a show without a pre-talk, I just don't advise it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 10, 2013 12:17PM)
Can you?
Yes.

In a show why would you is the relevant question.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 10, 2013 12:58PM)
I also wouldn't use the word "actors" to a newbie as it can generate the wrong understanding and perception.
Message: Posted by: Jesse Lewis (Mar 10, 2013 02:50PM)
Pretalk is by far the most important part of the show period so why not just do it.

Jesse
Message: Posted by: bobser (Mar 11, 2013 12:06PM)
I concur with all the above.
I am releasing 'The Swan' at the end of this month and you might want to have a look at it. It's NOT for 'hypnotising without a pre-talk' but it is for talking and getting an answer from the subconscious without hypnosis. Although it is mainly for the therapy room I use it in all hypnosis including my mentalism act on one on one or a whole audience.
Message: Posted by: SleepNow (Mar 14, 2013 05:12PM)
Well, the question was can you. And, the answer is yes.

The first person to hypnotize someone probably didn't do a pre-talk. Because, hypnosis did exist before this but this was the first hypnotist, so hypnotists didn't exist.

He wouldn't know what to say in the pre-talk if no-one had ever hypnotized anyone before. TV and Movies hypnotize people all the time without a pre-talk, and the hypnotist can do the same thing.

Which came first? The Chicken or the egg?
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Mar 14, 2013 08:08PM)
Can you hypnotize someone without pre-talk?

Yes, from my own experience performing. :ohyes: