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Topic: Toibox Review!!!
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 10, 2006 02:21PM)
I just received this today and all I can say is WOW! This is simply brilliant.

Let's start with the tin box. It is very small and compact and easily fits in the pocket. It also came with MINTS! Sweet deal!

The booket is very well designed. It is spiral bound. Each effect inside is taught very well. The illustrations are very clear as well.

Ok now the effects inside.

Three Way Prediction: This is a prediction effect. Duh! 3 mint tins are given to the spectator and asked to mix them up. They are asked to choose 2 for themselves and 1 for the magician. Each of the tins are now opened and a note is found inside each of them. The two notes inside the tins they keep read YOU WILL KEEP THIS TIN and the note inside the tin they gave you to keep reads YOU WILL GIVE THIS TIN TO THE MAGICIAN. This effect is labeled beginner, but it is strong.

The Chosen One: This is a process of elimination type of trick. A card is selected and signed. The deck is cut into 4 piles and the spectator is asked to place a mint tin on the pile they want to keep. This is continued until one card is left. The card is then turned over and is not there card. What the? But wait, it is found folded up inside the mint tin. Oh Yeah! It is labled intermediate.

Blue Card Transpo: A card is selected from a red back and then shuffled into the deck by the spectator. A tin that was on the table the entire time is opened to find a blue backed card. That card is the selection! This one is intermediate.

Tri-Fold: This is my favorite out of all the effects. I got goosebumps from just reading the description. A card is selected and signed by the spectator. It's then lost in the deck but then instantly vanishes and ends up in the magicians pocket. Then the entire deck vanishes and is found in the magicians pocket. The card is placed in the middle again, but again it vanishes and jumps into the magicians pocket, BUT this time it's folded up inside a tin. Wow! Jonathan also gives you a second phase where the spectator can pull the card out themselves. This is labelled advanced.

Jonathan also gives several ideas for some effects as well. Color changes, Transpostitions...........

He goes indepth about the history of the effect, gives you the handling of toibox and also gives you sources where to buy more tins.

All the effects are just amazing and are sure to stun.

Even if you don't like reading, Jonathan makes the descriptions as clear as day.

So what are you waiting for? But it TODAY!
Message: Posted by: Cody Fisher (Jul 10, 2006 03:57PM)
Thank you for the review. I think that cleared up a lot of the questions from the other thread. Sounds great!

Cody
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 10, 2006 04:44PM)
Yes the card can be loaded into the box by the spectator and yes they can pull it out themselves.
Message: Posted by: djrdjr (Jul 10, 2006 06:33PM)
Thanks, MM.

Guess you actually COULD say more than just, "wow." :)

Anybody else?
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 10, 2006 06:44PM)
Here is another review from MVD.

I received ToiBox today around 1 pm and the only reason I've put it down is so that I can write this post. It is now 5:30 pm. What is briiliant about this little prop is that not only does it come with routines that kick butt, but I have already put together 2 routines that I will undoubtedly use on numerous occasions. One is a way of handing out my business card and the other is as the ultimate out for when my less that dexterous hands slip out a break.

Jonathan, I can not thank you enough. I have always loved the Card to Box plot but hated both the price and ornate nature of John Kennedy's effect. This prop is impromtu, leaves you clean in the end, isn't bulky, and packs the same punch. I love it and would recommend it to anyone who likes powerful magic that allows for creative presentations.

My girlfiend and roommate were my first victims, and both responded instanteously with "WTF?!". They certainly won't be the last.

Sincerely,

Brett Bishop
Message: Posted by: magico (Jul 10, 2006 07:44PM)
Thanks for the review. I ordered mine today and got an email that it was shipped today. Great service. Can't wait to get it.
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Jul 10, 2006 08:31PM)
Thanks, great review. Glad you share it with us!
Message: Posted by: Craig Kyle (Jul 10, 2006 08:44PM)
My fave magic box that cards come out of is a destination box. John Allen makes them and they are amazing and very versatile. The onlooker removes the card himslef which amazes him. John Allen was smart because he chnaged the moment of sneakiness.

I like mints and sellotape as much as the next man but I will not be buying the toi box as I like my crafted destination box. I am sure if you do a search on the Café you can see more info on this prop.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 11, 2006 08:00AM)
Thank you Zak. I'm glad to here you are still enjoying your Destination Box.
Message: Posted by: tootall (Jul 11, 2006 08:14AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-10 17:44, Magicmania wrote:
Yes the card can be loaded into the box by the spectator and yes they can pull it out themselves.
[/quote]

What card are you talking about?? Are you saying the card in the demo vid on Johnathan's site can be pulled out by the spectator??
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jul 11, 2006 08:53AM)
The card that can be pulled out by the spectator is not sigend.

Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 11, 2006 09:44AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 09:53, fishermagic wrote:
The card that can be pulled out by the spectator is not sigend.

Cody S. Fisher
[/quote]

Hi Cody,

Huh?

Can you elaborate a little without giving away the method? One of the big selling points is the spectator taking the card out themselves. How effective is it if the card is not signed?

Jon
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 11, 2006 09:55AM)
There really isn't much to elaborate on without exposing.


Because people keep pm'ing me asking for the link here it is

http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/ToiBox/ToiBox.html
Message: Posted by: djrdjr (Jul 11, 2006 10:52AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 09:53, fishermagic wrote:
The card that can be pulled out by the spectator is not sigend.

Cody S. Fisher
[/quote]

Cody ... have you purchased the effect? If so, can you please post a longer review? The one piece of info you posted above has been less evasive and more valuable than anything else I've read on either thread about Toibox. This is the sort of info. that will allow me to make a fair evaluation of whether or not I want to purchase this effect. I am still on the fence.

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 11, 2006 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 10:55, Magicmania wrote:
There really isn't much to elaborate on without exposing.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Baggins (Jul 11, 2006 11:34AM)
I think that if the card isn't signed then that is fine. People know there are only 52 cards ina deck and if a card they picked appaears in a box then that's cool. I may get this mint tin.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 11, 2006 12:33PM)
The website states that the card is signed and ends up on the box: "First time its a surprise the second time it is under strict conditions and the spectator opens the tin and removes the card themselves"

Magicmania posted: A card is selected and signed by the spectator. It's then lost in the deck but then instantly vanishes and ends up in the magicians pocket. Then the entire deck vanishes and is found in the magicians pocket. The card is placed in the middle again, but again it vanishes and jumps into the magicians pocket, BUT this time it's folded up inside a tin. Wow! Jonathan also gives you a second phase where the spectator can pull the card out themselves."

This definitely sound like the signed card is removed by the person who signs it. As someone who has created a Card to Box where the person who signs the card actually removes their signed card for themselves and can also use it for predictions, colour change cards, multiple card discovery etc, I am very interested to know whether, in fact, they can remove their signed card as inferred.

Magicmania, I do not wish to know the method, the effect, routining or anything else. I am simply looking to know if the card the person signs is the one they remove as you have inferred. It is a major selling point so it owuld be nice if it can be cleared up once and for all. As the opnly perosn who has bought one and has made any comments, you are in the perfect position to clear up this major point. Many thanks in advance for your help.

Jon
Message: Posted by: Paul Wingham (Jul 11, 2006 01:24PM)
As I've already said on the original thread I think this is a nice effect,i wont be purchasing this because I wouldn't use it however for $25 your getting an effect and sleights used by a pro and honed over 7 years. I could be wrong but if your expecting to be able to have a tin on the table and then let a spec take a signed card out I'm certain you'l be diapointed but hey if that were possible with an ungimmicked tin and as easy as it states I'm sure there would be a bigger price tag.....please correct me if I'm wrong. The important thing is what the spectators believe happens not what actually happens.

however I do agree this is a key selling point to many. I think I read somewhere that in the context of the card to pocket routine the signed card can be removed from the tin at some point in the routine. I'm guessing the demo does not show this as this effect relys on routine rather than gimmick and many would figure for free.
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jul 11, 2006 04:07PM)
Yes I do have this effect. The first time the card IS signed...the second time it appears there they CAN remove it but it is NOT signed. This is pretty much all I can say about it without giving away too much.

If you are looking for a CTB where the spectator can removed a "signed" card from the box themselves then I would suggest Jon Allen's version or Arthur Tivoli's version. (There are other versions out there if you look!) If you do not mind that the card is NOT signed when THEY remove it then you will be OK with this version.

I hope this clears things up...

Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 11, 2006 04:18PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 13:33, Jon Allen wrote:
The website states that the card is signed and ends up on the box: "First time its a surprise the second time it is under strict conditions and the spectator opens the tin and removes the card themselves"

Magicmania posted: A card is selected and signed by the spectator. It's then lost in the deck but then instantly vanishes and ends up in the magicians pocket. Then the entire deck vanishes and is found in the magicians pocket. The card is placed in the middle again, but again it vanishes and jumps into the magicians pocket, BUT this time it's folded up inside a tin. Wow! Jonathan also gives you a second phase where the spectator can pull the card out themselves."

This definitely sound like the signed card is removed by the person who signs it. As someone who has created a Card to Box where the person who signs the card actually removes their signed card for themselves and can also use it for predictions, colour change cards, multiple card discovery etc, I am very interested to know whether, in fact, they can remove their signed card as inferred.

Magicmania, I do not wish to know the method, the effect, routining or anything else. I am simply looking to know if the card the person signs is the one they remove as you have inferred. It is a major selling point so it owuld be nice if it can be cleared up once and for all. As the opnly perosn who has bought one and has made any comments, you are in the perfect position to clear up this major point. Many thanks in advance for your help.

Jon
[/quote]

The spectator can't take out a signed selection. ONLY a nonsigned card can be taken out by the spectator. It's still really strong though.
Message: Posted by: djrdjr (Jul 11, 2006 04:25PM)
Thanks, Cody!
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 11, 2006 04:49PM)
Thanks Magicmania.
Message: Posted by: ekins (Jul 11, 2006 05:40PM)
I have a simple question about what your receive for the $19.95. In Magicmania's initial review he described an effect that uses three boxes. Looking on the website it says that you receive a single tin. I don't see an option to purchase additional tins (wihtout the set of instructions), or is this a standard mint tin that you could purchse additional ones at most stores?

-Brian
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jul 11, 2006 05:48PM)
Yes there is a source given for mint tins...I do not suspect that they will be hard to find...if you have access to a WallGreens you are good to go!

I hope this helps,
Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Jul 11, 2006 05:49PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 18:40, ekins wrote:
I have a simple question about what your receive for the $19.95. In Magicmania's initial review he described an effect that uses three boxes. Looking on the website it says that you receive a single tin. I don't see an option to purchase additional tins (wihtout the set of instructions), or is this a standard mint tin that you could purchse additional ones at most stores?

-Brian
[/quote]

The creator mentions he will tell you where to buy the tins. I think 7-11 has them.
They are just mint tins.
James
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 11, 2006 06:26PM)
In the context of the routine the spectator removing their unsigned card makes perfect sence and plays much stronger then you removing their signed card. I have never had a layman come close to explaining this effect. I have even openly exposed exactly how it works and they still say "But how do you get it in the tin"? :)

My magic is known for it's simple and direct nature. I like to take an effect "shake it up" until all the loose ends fall off and all that is left is a simple direct effect that hits hard and is accomplished with as little work as possible. ToiBox definately fits into that category.
Message: Posted by: simon hughes (Jul 11, 2006 07:43PM)
If I can pull an unsigned card out of a box at the end of the trick I'm in. This is an effect I have wanted to do for a while and was looking for a suitable method but couldn't find it.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jul 11, 2006 09:16PM)
Why is this this Toibox thing such a big deal?

It looks to me like just another version of many card to box effects which use the same slieghts..ala Kennedy's Mystery Box, Viking's Billet Box, Green's Mission Impossible, etc.

It seems to me like this can be done with any small box using that same principal, with the second production being an unsigned card that was selected after the signed card is removed.

I watched the video and it looks fishy when the box is so quickly closed after the production.

If the spectator could pull out the signed card, it would have been in the video. Heck, you wouldn't need a routine.

This appears to be someone else's version of an old idea. Kennedy's Box or John's Destination Box are far better in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: simon hughes (Jul 11, 2006 09:27PM)
Can you do the allen/kennedy box tricks with an unsigned card? I don't like having cards signed very much so I think toi box will suit me betetr as the card is unsigned.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jul 11, 2006 09:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 22:27, simon hughes wrote:
Can you do the allen/kennedy box tricks with an unsigned card? I don't like having cards signed very much so I think toi box will suit me betetr as the card is unsigned.
[/quote]

Sure, you can do unsigned card to box tricks with any box. Kennedy's box allows the card to be signed and the box shown empty upon removal. Better yet, Allen's allows the spectator to remove the card from a small pillbox that was found inside a locked wooden box in view the whole effect. These are spectacular!
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 11, 2006 09:58PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 22:16, tdowell wrote:
Why is this this Toibox thing such a big deal?

It looks to me like just another version of many card to box effects which use the same sleights...ala Kennedy's Mystery Box, Viking's Billet Box, Green's Mission Impossible, etc.

It seems to me like this can be done with any small box using that same principal, with the second production being an unsigned card that was selected after the signed card is removed.

I watched the video and it looks fishy when the box is so quickly closed after the production.

If the spectator could pull out the signed card, it would have been in the video. Heck, you wouldn't need a routine.

This appears to be someone else's version of an old idea. Kennedy's Box or John's Destination Box are far better in my opinion.
[/quote]
Are the spectator going to care that the box is closed to quickly? No, there attention will be on the folded up card.


[quote]
On 2006-07-11 22:35, tdowell wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 22:27, simon hughes wrote:
Can you do the Allen/Kennedy box tricks with an unsigned card? I don't like having cards signed very much so I think toi box will suit me better as the card is unsigned.
[/quote]
Sure, you can do unsigned card to box tricks with any box. Kennedy's box allows the card to be signed and the box shown empty upon removal. Better yet, Allen's allows the spectator to remove the card from a small pillbox that was found inside a locked wooden box in view the whole effect. These are spectacular!
[/quote]
Yes, but this is Much more compact and can be done anywhere and still has a very strong effect to lay audiences.
Message: Posted by: CharlieC (Jul 11, 2006 10:20PM)
This effect offers nothing new. Doug Brewer, Tommy Wonder, Paul Green, the list goes on and on with recent contributors to this age-old card effect. Contributions that actually improve the effect and offer something worth studying.

It was actually kinda embarrassing watching the demo. I'd love to see the creator perform the ******* **** with his hands in the camera frame, lol.


Magicmania,

Do you receive proceeds from sales of the Toi Box?
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jul 11, 2006 10:44PM)
Magicmania - I never said Toibox is a bad effect, but it seems to be one of a number of effects today that don't really add anything new to other effects using the same principal. There really isn't anything new here.

As for the spectator, I think it has ten times the impact when they immediately see the empty box with no fishy moves or cover. I've had people grab my Mystery Box right after the revelation and start examining it right away only to find nothing. That's powerful stuff.

It seems to me that repeating the effect with an unsigned card is anticlimactic, but likely necessary to end clean in toibox. Toibox isn't a bad effect or routine, but I think other products/routines are as good if not better.

In my opinion, put the money towards Allen's or Kennedy's box. Money well spent on professional props that make it look impossible.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 11, 2006 10:50PM)
I watched the demo at first the handling looked great then I went back and looked at it again, Charlie c is correct the hands went out of frame,The demo that is shown is an old concept as already stated, if the tin was empty and then the signed card pulled out this would be a killer effect but it does not do this.
I rather stay with paper clipped by Jay Sankey a paper clip is much easier
to carry around than haveing two or three tin boxes in your pocket..
the godfather
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 11, 2006 10:57PM)
With the "Anything Wallet", you can show a small empty wallet, leave it on the table, have a card appear inside of it and then remove the signed card, showing the wallet to be empty afterwards. And it fits in your breast pocket.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 11, 2006 10:58PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 23:22, CharlieC wrote:
Magicmania,

Do you receive proceeds from sales of the Toi Box?
[/quote]
LOL. No I don't. I'm just trying to help with Jonathan's sales as much as possible.


[quote]
On 2006-07-11 23:44, tdowell wrote:
Magicmania - I never said Toibox is a bad effect, but it seems to be one of a number of effects today that don't really add anything new to other effects using the same principal. There really isn't anything new here.

As for the spectator, I think it has ten times the impact when they immediately see the empty box with no fishy moves or cover. I've had people grab my Mystery Box right after the revelation and start examining it right away only to find nothing. That's powerful stuff.

It seems to me that repeating the effect with an unsigned card is anticlimactic, but likely necessary to end clean in toibox. Toibox isn't a bad effect or routine, but I think other products/routines are as good if not better.

In my opinion, put the money towards Allen's or Kennedy's box. Money well spent on professional props that make it look impossible.
[/quote]
I wasn't implying to you that I thought you were implying it was a bad effect. I don't have Kennedy's box or any other box because I do not wish to spend some outrageous price for it. This came along and I said to myself, This is a deal! So I bought it.


[quote]
On 2006-07-11 23:57, cfrancis wrote:
With the "Anything Wallet", you can show a small empty wallet, leave it on the table, have a card appear inside of it and then remove the signed card, showing the wallet to be empty afterwards. And it fits in your breast pocket.
[/quote]
Can you supply a link?
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Jul 11, 2006 11:14PM)
The creator himself has never seen Tommy Wonder's card to box.
I seriously think if anyone sees Tommy's version, they will not want any other.

Tommy Wonder's Visions of Wonder Vol 3 $32

VOLUME 3 (146 minutes)
NEST OF BOXES - Tommy discusses in tremendous detail three unbelievable versions of the Borrowed Watch to Nest of Boxes. You will shake your head in disbelief and be absolutely dumbfounded.

COINS ACROSS - A combination of the Coins Across plot, a coin box routine, and a wonderful Coin in Eye routine to close. This gets the same strong reaction of the Card On Forehead but with coins. Practical and incredibly strong.

AMBITIOUS CARD PLUS RING BOX - See why a card trick gets standing ovations time after time. Tommy slowly builds and builds the impossibility of the classic Ambitious Card effect and ends with one of the best versions of the signed card to box plot in existence.

Tommy also demonstrates his fabulous handlings for two classic effects-Card Through Handkerchief and Everywhere and Nowhere.

I'm not knocking Toibox, but why would someone buy something that is inferior to effects that already exist?

James
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 11, 2006 11:33PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-11 23:44, tdowell wrote:
As for the spectator, I think it has ten times the impact when they immediately see the empty box with no fishy moves or cover. I've had people grab my Mystery Box right after the revelation and start examining it right away only to find nothing. That's powerful stuff.
[/quote]

You make a good point. People don't grab Toibox. They don't suspect the box. The Kennedy and any unique looking box screams "GIMMICK" I don't care how well someone manufactures it to look ungimmicked.
Magic is always stronger with normal everyday looking props. Same reason none of us would perform with Black Tiger cards. Spectators would simply believe the cards are "tricky"

When I do a private show I often let the spectator who helped me keep the tin! Can't do that with a Gimmicked Box and that is extremly powerful to the audience. The simpler you make your magic the stronger it becomes.

Some of you are still commenting on the video and it was explained that the video was only to show what kind of effect Toibox is and in no way should be compared to routines and handling you are getting in the book. ToiBox is different then the Bruno Hennig and the Kaps version and other versions. Please stop criticizing something you have not even bothered to learn about.

All the different card to box effects all have a place in the magic world. They all have their shining moment. They all have that time when that is the best box to use. ToiBox in my opinion shines when it comes to working restaurants. Nothing else plays this big while packing so small and has so much versatility with so little work.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: CharlieC (Jul 12, 2006 12:28AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 00:33, kammagic wrote:

Some of you are still commenting on the video and it was explained that the video was only to show what kind of effect Toibox is and in no way should be compared to routines and handling you are getting in the book. ToiBox is different then the Bruno Hennig and the Kaps version and other versions. Please stop criticizing something you have not even bothered to learn about.
[/quote]

Well, I think one of the many issues people have with the Toibox is that your product webpage is extremely misleading.

For instance, if the spectator could really remove the card as your website implies (signed card), I would have bought 2 on the spot. Luckily, I found this thread.

Don't get me started on the demo.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 12, 2006 12:35AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 01:28, CharlieC wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 00:33, kammagic wrote:

Some of you are still commenting on the video and it was explained that the video was only to show what kind of effect Toibox is and in no way should be compared to routines and handling you are getting in the book. ToiBox is different then the Bruno Hennig and the Kaps version and other versions. Please stop criticizing something you have not even bothered to learn about.
[/quote]

Well, I think one of the many issues people have with the Toibox is that your product webpage is extremely misleading.

For instance, if the spectator could really remove the card as your website implies (signed card), I would have bought 2 on the spot. Luckily, I found this thread.

Don't get me started on the demo.
[/quote]

Tell me how Jonathan implied the card the spectator removes from the tin is signed. Jonathan has not mislead any of you. Stop making up stuff.

I won't get you started on the demo because there is nothing to be started. It has already ended.
Message: Posted by: JJP161 (Jul 12, 2006 12:56AM)
It definitely sounds very interesting but I think I'm a little confused here. If I followed correctly in the first phase of the effect the magician removes a signed card from the box and then, this is where I get lost. Is another card selected, from the deck, not signed and lost in the deck and then the spectator can remove the card from the tin?

I think Jon Allen's Destination Box is absolutely incredible and would be very hard to beat. I really like John Kennedy's Mystery Box as well but The Destination Box is definitely my favorite.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 12, 2006 01:00AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 01:56, JJP161 wrote:
It definitely sounds very interesting but I think I'm a little confused here. If I followed correctly in the first phase of the effect the magician removes a signed card from the box and then, this is where I get lost. Is another card selected, from the deck, not signed and lost in the deck and then the spectator can remove the card from the tin?


Yes, That is correct. Though, the second phase is optional.
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Jul 12, 2006 01:16AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 01:56, JJP161 wrote:


I think Jon Allen's Destination Box is absolutely incredible and would be very hard to beat.
[/quote]

The nice thing is that it is locked so speckies don't go opening the darn thing while it's on the table. However, Jon Allen's Destination Box could actually be opened by the spectator and peeked at. They would not find out the secret. Very excellent!
James
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 01:16AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 01:56, JJP161 wrote:
It definitely sounds very interesting but I think I'm a little confused here. If I followed correctly in the first phase of the effect the magician removes a signed card from the box and then, this is where I get lost. Is another card selected, from the deck, not signed and lost in the deck and then the spectator can remove the card from the tin?

I think Jon Allen's Destination Box is absolutely incredible and would be very hard to beat. I really like John Kennedy's Mystery Box as well but The Destination Box is definitely my favorite.
[/quote]

Jon Allen's box and the Kennedy Box are both wonderful ideas and great effects and if they fit your needs then ToiBox probably is not for you. But ToiBox definately has its niche. For restuarant work or walk-a-round work I'll put it up against any other similar effect. It is in this environment ToiBox shines.
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 12, 2006 05:37AM)
...I can't even get the ruddy thing to play in FireFox or IE! Bloody QuickTime - why do people bother with it!?


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 12, 2006 08:11AM)
Shame aboout the time difference! Now there's a whole load of stuff to comment on so apologies for the length of this post...

MagicMania wrote:
[quote]
Yes, but this is Much more compact and can be done anywhere and still has a very strong effect to lay audiences.
[/quote]
Compact is not necessarily better. Because of the size of The Destination Box, it is a feature item. I use it to open and close my set. It also helps me find out a lot of information about my audience which helps during the performance. It is padlocked so it is of interest to people because they want to know what is inside. A little, everyday tin, while getting the job of having a card appear in an improbable place, does not have the same impact.

I use The Destination Box anywhere as well. Tables, Receptions, sitting, standing indoors or outdoors. The fact that I have to hold it when I approach a group of people makes no difference whatsoever.

Kammagic wrote:
[quote]
You make a good point. People don't grab Toibox. They don't suspect the box. The Kennedy and any unique looking box screams "GIMMICK" I don't care how well someone manufactures it to look ungimmicked.
[/quote]
People haven't grabbed it but what happens when they do? Just because they haven't; doesn't mean they won't. I think that anything the magician supplies himself is under scrutiny. Your job is to deceive after all. As for any unique looking box screaming "[b]gimmick[/b]" I beg to differ. I actually hand my Destination Box to someone at the beginning of my act. It is a simple, no frills, wooden box. They look all round it and are satisfied. After all, why would I give it to them if it were gimmicked? I have never had anyone ever say there must be something strange about the box. The fact that I am so casual about handing it to them emphasises this fact. I can have people examine the box afterwards but nobody ever does thanks to the routining. If absolutely necessary, I can open the box and take out the contents, show the box, put the contents back in and lock the box again. It is examinable but it does ruin the surprise of what's inside the box if I do that :)

I think people are forgetting about two important pieces of magic: handling and performance. No matter what a prop looks like, you have to handle it in a natural manner. If I handle a gimmicked box in a natural manner, this is much better than handling a regular item in a suspicious manner regardless of what the effect is that is produced by the prop. One thing that virtually all video demos do is have the prop nicely in place and everything set up for the trick.

How have you introduced the prop? What is your reasoning for having it? What happens to it after the routine? If you introduce a box and then pull out a pack of cards, people will automatically assume the box has something to do with the cards and when a card is selected, they know *exactly* what the box is for. I introduce my box as the very first thing I do. Nobody has the faintest idea what it is about. I would be interested to know how people who use Toibox introduce the box and how they separate its introduction from the card trick.

Kammagic wrote:
[quote]
Some of you are still commenting on the video and it was explained that the video was only to show what kind of effect Toibox is and in no way should be compared to routines and handling you are getting in the book. ToiBox is different than the Bruno Hennig and the Kaps version and other versions. Please stop criticizing something you have not even bothered to learn about.
[/quote]
What about everyone not on here who do not have the benefit of an explanation. Those that know the method from watching the video will be confused and those that don't will read that someone else can remove their signed card and assume that the video shows the routine where this is possible. From watching the video, it looks exactly like Bruno Hennig/Kaps version although I do know it is slightly different to enable the person to remove their own card. As for criticisms, I believe you have not seen Tommy Wonder's routine and learnt his theory and I do not believe you know about mine either. The criticism has come not from the routines but from the video showing a routine that does not show the prop 'in action' coupled with a statement that is extremely misleading.

[quote]
Nothing else plays this big while packing so small and has so much versatility with so little work.
[/quote]
Size has nothing to do with how good something plays. The Destination Box plays much bigger and is also much more versatile. As for doing little work, this implies it is easy. Physically it might be but handling, performance, audience management, misdirection all take work¡K. and a lot of work at that.

Magicmania wrote:
[quote]
Tell me how Jonathan implied the card the spectator removes from the tin is signed. Jonathan has not mislead any of you. Stop making up stuff.
[/quote]
The website states that the card is signed and ends up on the box: "First time it's a surprise the second time it is under strict conditions and the spectator opens the tin and removes the card themselves" That *definitely* sounds like you remove the card the first time; they remove the card the second time. You yourself even wrote: "Jonathan also gives you a second phase where the spectator can pull the card out themselves." Sounds like they remove the signed card to me!


I think the problem with magic is that people see an item and buy it but once they have learned the secret, they cannot ask for a refund as it is seen as them just looking to see how a trick works. However, if someone has read a description, seen a video and then receives something different, they should be allowed to have a refund. As Kammagic said, Toibox has its niche. However, people need and deserve to know what they are getting. At the very least, they should be able to see what they are getting rather than seeing one effect of how the audience may perceive the effect. If that means some people figuring out what you have done then so be it. If there are other ideas and routines then they may well admire your thinking and wish to but the item to see what else you have to offer with it.

I think it would be a great competition to put all the Card to Boxes up against each other in the real world and see what happens!!! I think *mine* would come out on top.... :)


Jon
Message: Posted by: mgshn (Jul 12, 2006 08:41AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 09:11, Jon Allen wrote:
Shame aboout the time difference! Now there's a whole load of stuff to comment on

...

Jon
[/quote]

Jon, In your signature line you refer people to a site where you are selling Silent Treatment. My question is, "Do *you* have a version where the spectator can remove the card?"
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 12, 2006 08:47AM)
For me I think $5 dollars for an instant download to learn your handling for TOI BOX makes sense .....
not $25 dollars for an old effect that is not yours......
vinny
Message: Posted by: mario_wong (Jul 12, 2006 08:55AM)
Jon Allen, you have your goal acheived, you make everyone here think that Destination Box is the best item out there! Great !

I think it might be easier for you to ask Magicmania to change the thread topic to ''Destination Box is the best!'' instead of writing hundred of words selling your item.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 12, 2006 09:05AM)
Hi Mgshn,
I don't advertise that they can. Every so often, they could though ;-)

Hi Mario,
I was responding to various negative comments about various boxes, of which mine was one, and putting forward the facts. There were also other subjects which I addressed, hopefully in an objective manner as well.

Personally, I would love to hear from others who have bought Toibox to see what they think.

Jon
Message: Posted by: amerkle (Jul 12, 2006 09:13AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 09:55, mario_wong wrote:
Jon Allen, you have your goal acheived, you make everyone here think that Destination Box is the best item out there! Great !

I think it might be easier for you to ask Magicmania to change the thread topic to ''Destination Box is the best!'' instead of writing hundred of words selling your item.
[/quote]

No Kidding. This thread has been hijacked.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 12, 2006 10:45AM)
I think this has gone [b]too far![/b] All I did was write a review. Then you guys came along an started bashing Jonathan's effect. I know some of you wanted to clear things up, but there is no need to convince people to not buy it. That is very rude and disrespectful. How would you feel if people did this to you?
Message: Posted by: CharlieC (Jul 12, 2006 10:54AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 11:45, Magicmania wrote:
I think this has gone TOO FAR! All I did was write a review. Then you guys came along an started bashing Jonathan's effect. I know some of you wanted to clear things up, but there is no need to convince people to not buy it. That is very rude and disrespectful. How would you feel if people did this to you?
[/quote]

If my product deserved it, then so be it.

I don't think people in this thread were "bashing" it out of malice. I legitimately felt that the Toibox offered nothing new and wanted to give my input.

Jon, I think you've sold me on the Destination Box. I needed a better way to bring my close-up set full circle and I think the D-Box will do the trick.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 12, 2006 10:59AM)
$250 for Destination Box!!! I'll stick with ToiBox.
Message: Posted by: CharlieC (Jul 12, 2006 11:48AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 11:59, Magicmania wrote:
$250 for Destination Box!!! I'll stick with ToiBox.
[/quote]

It'll pay for itself in 1-2 gigs.
Message: Posted by: djrdjr (Jul 12, 2006 11:55AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 00:33, kammagic wrote:
Some of you are still commenting on the video and it was explained that the video was only to show what kind of effect Toibox is and in no way should be compared to routines and handling you are getting in the book. ToiBox is different then the Bruno Hennig and the Kaps version and other versions. Please stop criticizing something you have not even bothered to learn about.
[/quote]

I think I have just figured out what has been confusing and bothering me about ToiBox.

I believe I would have taken to it much more positively had the emphasis (both here and on the product's site) been on the special routines instead of the prop itself. The fact that the video just showed a common CTB routine put undue emphasis on the prop, instead of the routines, which I assume are really the product's selling point.

I think we could have skipped all of this had the product been marketed as a pamphlet of routines (which is what it seems to be) instead of a magic box.

One man's opinion.
Message: Posted by: Noel (Jul 12, 2006 12:38PM)
I very rarely visit the magic Café chat board but I had some free time today and stumbled across this thread. I have watched the demo video of the Toi BOx and to me it just looks like the Bruno Hennig card in box classic. It doesn't matetr if the method has changed if the conditions havent been improved. The excellent Kennedy box allowed you to leave the empty box on the table which was obviously empty. I never used to draw attention to it but I am sure it was noticed by one on two spectators at every table.

A few years ago I bought Jon Allen's Destination Box and I never looked back. This is a trick that I do at every event I work at, every single group or table gets to see it. I urge everybody to re-read Jon Allens post on the previous page.

Best regards,

Noel
http://www.noelqualter.com
Message: Posted by: mgshn (Jul 12, 2006 01:11PM)
All kidding aside, I think Toibox and Destination Box are in different leagues. (Here's where I manage to get Jon *and* everyone else mad at the same time.) Toibox doesn't look like the kind of think I would want to use as a set piece in a stand up act. OTOH, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to carry a DB with me just to use as an out in a strolling situation. In fact (sorry Jon) I, at least, wouldn't want to carry a DB with me to stroll at all. I just don't have the pocket space. In my view the world is big enough for both props to get along.

That said, I ordered the thing and will post my impressions of it soon. I do own a DB and can recommend it, along with Jon's excellent lecture video, without any reservations. (Boy, am I going to catch it for mentioning that on this thread...)

So, what's everyone think about Israel invading Lebanon?
Message: Posted by: wonder pefomance (Jul 12, 2006 01:16PM)
I suggest combining the two -ie use the toibox instead of the mint tin in the destination box. this way you get the power of both effects.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 01:23PM)
Jon Allen's Destination Box is a great effect and ToiBox is not a replacement for it.

Destination box and ToiBox are both Card in box effects just like a car and a truck are both vehicles. What makes one better then the other is how each of them satisfies each individuals needs. Should everyone go out and buy ToiBox? Yes that would be great but in reality ToiBox is not for everyone. This is not a competition. ToiBox is simply a unique handling of a classic effect I have been having wonderful success with and I wanted to pass that on to others.

What happened to "The Magic Café" "Magician's Helping Magician's"

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 12, 2006 01:37PM)
Hey guys I know Jonathan form MVD he is a very creditable person. So please give this effect a chance, The people who purchased it will give honorable reviews good or bad...... I stated earlier that the effect was a old idea but his handling was excellent but perhaps it was to pricey ... So lets wait as see and give him a chance he deserves...
the godfather
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Jul 12, 2006 01:56PM)
I used something like this years ago in a restaurant. So let me ask this:

for a color change(no signed of course) , surely you do not put the box back on the table after you "dump" the card out. Do you?


Just "magician helping magician" advice here
...nice and simple site...description is worded the same as most used to be in catalogs years ago (imply)
As far as the demo....real world performance would be TONS better. The stepping back and moving your hands out of frame scream the obvious, where real world demo might not.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 02:11PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 14:56, magicmind wrote:

Just "magician helping magician" advice here
...nice and simple site...description is worded the same as most used to be in catalogs years ago (imply)
As far as the demo....real world performance would be TONS better. The stepping back and moving your hands out of frame scream the obvious, where real world demo might not.
[/quote]

Yes I agree a live performance video would be best. It is quite a conundrum to be able to do a video of this with out giving away anything.

Thanks, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 12, 2006 02:40PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 14:23, kammagic wrote:
Jon Allen's Destination Box is a great effect and ToiBox is not a replacement for it.

Destination box and ToiBox are both Card in box effects just like a car and a truck are both vehicles. What makes one better then the other is how each of them satisfies each individuals needs. Should everyone go out and buy ToiBox? Yes that would be great but in reality ToiBox is not for everyone. This is not a competition. ToiBox is simply a unique handling of a classic effect I have been having wonderful success with and I wanted to pass that on to others.

What happened to "The Magic Café" "Magician's Helping Magician's"

, Jonathan
[/quote]

I agree with you Jonathan. Both have different places in the marketplace and it is not a competition between the two. The comparisons came because of the "spectator removes their card" line.

I would still like to hear reviews of Toibox from people who have used it!

Jon
Message: Posted by: Paul Wingham (Jul 12, 2006 02:55PM)
I really think this is yet another occassion where people are expecting miracles for next to no money. most semi knowledgeable magicians can figure out the basics but your getting a handful of working routines from a pros repotoire.

Lets use a bit of common sense. if it were possible to actually load a signed folded card into an ungimmicked box without looking guilty, it'd be tricky....then poeple would be complaining about how difficult or unatural it was. setting up with the unsigned card then doing it signed makes sense to me. This routine is simple and well priced. As for the demo. it gives a basic idea of what you can do without giving away the actual routine for nothing.hands do go out of frame but it is obvious that you don't actually perform it like this, I'm sure the actual sleights are taught. I'm guessing if done well the spectator will swear the signed card was in the box.

What did we ever do before the internet and broadband.
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 12, 2006 03:01PM)
I suppose I want a few more detailed reviews regarding the routines. If I am going to pay $25 for an ungimmicked tin box and a few routines, the routines had better be really good.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 12, 2006 03:05PM)
Jon why don't you support jonathan and buy his effect this might inhance your effect and jonathan can buy your effect. charlie c said your effect will pay for itself in a couple of gigs.... Magicians helping magicians.I for one have bought your material and you never receprecated... I started a post years ago that your effect dou le back was the best small packet trick of the year. never even a thank you.
this is what it means magicians helping others
the godfather
Message: Posted by: Craig Kyle (Jul 12, 2006 03:14PM)
Maybe your tricks suck?
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 12, 2006 03:30PM)
Maybe the do suck...
so does your face
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Jul 12, 2006 03:36PM)
Vinny, WOw harsh words from newbie zak. But of course his profile says interests "magic duh" so he may think your magic sux, but according to his profile, his is stupid magic. Just an observation.
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 12, 2006 03:41PM)
Ease up there, Zak. That's a little harsh. Vinny is an excellent guy and a da** good magician. He has contributed many fantastic ideas to the magic community. And has even given some away for free. I expressed an interest in his Warped and Restored trick. He sent me a VHS of the handling and wouldn't even let me pay for it. Now THAT'S a magician helping a magician.

Back to ToiBox...
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jul 12, 2006 03:44PM)
[quote]
Maybe your tricks suck?
[/quote]
What a silly statement to interject in the middle of a serious conversation.
You look quite foolish for not knowing what Vinny contributes to the Café.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 03:56PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 16:14, zak plumb wrote:
Maybe your tricks suck?
[/quote]

Zak you are totally out of line. But it does show us that we can disregard any comments you make.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 12, 2006 04:19PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 16:05, vinsmagic wrote:
Jon why don't you support jonathan and buy his effect this might inhance your effect and jonathan can buy your effect. charlie c said your effect will pay for itself in a couple of gigs.... Magicians helping magicians.[/quote]

Hi Vinny,

You'd have to ask Jonathan if he'd be happy with buying my $250 item in return for me buying his $24.95 item!

Magicians helping magicians? I pointed out to Peter Eggink that the description of his effect, Exit, was misleading. He took the comments on board and changed the description. He didn't see it as "having a go" or as something detrimental to his effect. It might seem strange but I believe people on here, including me, are actually trying to to help Jonathan with his item. People have pointed out that he could well sell more if people could see something they can actually do with what they are looking to buy.

Now surely someone else has got Toibox and can post a review?
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 12, 2006 05:14PM)
Hi Jon don;t get me wrong his effect is misleading,,, I was only commenting on his handlings which is a little different and I liked it but the effect is a very old idea.I hope you do not thing I was bashing any one I am not,,,,
Your effects have been excellent and the price will more than pay for it self as charlie c already mentioned,
I am not a gimmick person so no matter how good the effect I stay clear but this is just me...
also it is difficult to sell another persons effect for 25 bucks and I told this to jonathan. I thought an downloadable ebook with the handling made sense..
vinny
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jul 12, 2006 05:23PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 16:14, zak plumb wrote:
Maybe your tricks suck?
[/quote]

Attacking someone who's so giving and well-respected isn't such a good idea. Of course you might just be stressed with your incredible tax burden given [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=169898&forum=15&post=4640616]this[/url] posting.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jul 12, 2006 05:29PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 16:30, vinsmagic wrote:
Maybe the do suck...
so does your face
[/quote]

:rotf: :rotf: I just squirted milk out of my nose laughing so hard. D*** you Vinny
Message: Posted by: Craig Kyle (Jul 12, 2006 06:35PM)
Quote"Maybe the do suck...
so does your face"endquote

That was a horrible thing to say. I have suffered from a bells palsey which made my face look a bit,wrong. This is something I am quite nervous about.

I was only suggesting that Mr Allen didn't want your tricks because they suck. I don t know for definite tht they do suck. I will look into it. Maybe you could send me a VHS of your tricks?

I am dissapointed that everybody chose to gang up on me. I don't visit the Café enough to know that some members are above critisism. My bad.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 12, 2006 06:57PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 19:35, zak plumb wrote:
Quote"Maybe the do suck...
so does your face"endquote

That was a horrible thing to say. I have suffered from a bells palsey which made my face look a bit,wrong. This is something I am quite nervous about.

I was only suggesting that Mr Allen didn't want your tricks because they suck. I don t know for definite tht they do suck. I will look into it. Maybe you could send me a VHS of your tricks?

I am dissapointed that everybody chose to gang up on me. I don't visit the Café enough to know that some members are above critisism. My bad.





[/quote]

Critisism? Saying someone's tricks suck is not critisism.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jul 12, 2006 07:17PM)
I've been doing this for about a year with the same mint box that I found in Walgreens. ( Instead of a palm, I do the Mercury fold ).

But, I switched over the the Mystery Box II a few moinths ago. I love showing the box empty. If you don't care about that, then using a mint box is very strong.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Kevvy (Jul 12, 2006 07:28PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 19:35, zak plumb wrote:

[quote]
On 2006-07-12 16:30, vinsmagic wrote:
Maybe the do suck...
so does your face
[/quote]

That was a horrible thing to say.
[/quote]


Umm..."Maybe your tricks suck" is a horrible thing to say. I am surprised you don't understand this.

At times, the Café is more like magicians [i]attacking[/i] magicians
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 12, 2006 07:30PM)
Hi Vinnie,

I know a lot of magicians hate gimmicks which is fine. Personally I like to use whatever gets the job done.

I think people are getting fidgety about waiting for the reviews so that's maybe why Zak struck out. Zak, I know someone in Surrey who suffers from Bells Palsey and he's in a bad way. Don't feel too bad.

Jon
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jul 12, 2006 07:32PM)
[quote]
I don't visit the Café enough to know that some members are above critisism.
[/quote]

That you think your post was in any way a critique pretty much confirms how people are responding to it.
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 12, 2006 07:36PM)
Zak, I am sorry to hear of your condition but what you said was completely uncalled for. Sorry to be condescending but you just don't hurl insults at people and then not expect some sort of reciprication.
Message: Posted by: ldl1017 (Jul 12, 2006 07:49PM)
I just received my manuscript for Toibox today. Unlike Magicmania, I am not that impressed. The manuscript is well produced and the effects are well explained. The problem is that the effects are nothing earth shattering. Before my purchase I spent several days reading and re-reading the posts from various individuals, including Jonathon Kamm himself. I even visited Jonathon’s website prior to purchasing the effect. Jonathon has various videos of some of his routines and sleights on his site. His excellence in handling cards and coins is what prompted me to purchase Toibox. I speculated as to the method but felt it unprofessional to comment on the effect without giving the author/inventor the courtesy of having actually read the manuscript. The book consists of a history of the effect, how the effect works, handling of the Toibox, an explanation of the something’s that make the magic happen and then four routines (5 if you include a brief routine that Jonathon discusses in his closing remarks). I feel that Jonathon could easily have offered this to the magic community as a PDF download and charged half the amount. I perform table side magic at Max and Erma’s, so I will try the effects there in the upcoming weeks and see how well they are received by the lay public. I hope that my comments do not incite a riot. As I stated, I at least purchased Toibox before commenting about the effect.
Lou
Message: Posted by: bosque (Jul 12, 2006 07:53PM)
I got this in the mail today. Not bad; but not much more than say, card to card box. For this kind of a spin on the old trick, I have to say I still prefer "Astonishmints". Slightly gimmicked, but way stronger and more logical than a "proppy" box.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 12, 2006 08:01PM)
Zak if you want to dish it out then you must be able to take it as well.saying my tricks suck when you never even seen me perform is wrong. I was talking about magicians helping other magicians,
I recall one time you pmed me about a effect of mine you were interested in and I sent it your way, you never even acknowleded getting it.
and then you say maybe Jon thinks my tricks suck I think Jon can speak for him self, and I was never disrespectfull to you or anyone else finally you say some members are above cririsim I get critized just as much as the next person,
you added nothing to the topic at hand your only purpose was to put me down
do you think now that you did that you have elevated your self ?????
think about it for the next time
vinny
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 08:02PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 19:35, zak plumb wrote:
QuoteI am dissapointed that everybody chose to gang up on me. I don't visit the Café enough to know that some members are above critisism. My bad.[/quote]

What you said about Vinny was not critisism. Since you are not familiar with his work it was simply an unsubstantiated verbal asault. Something a twelve year old might say. Everyone ganged up on you because you were wrong, very wrong!
Message: Posted by: Craig Kyle (Jul 12, 2006 08:07PM)
I'm not sure if I am being understood hear. I will break it down. "maybe your tricks suck" means, as far as I am concrened "possibly your tricks are really bad". Thq question was about why mr Allne hadnt reposded to somethng or bought the trick. I just offered an opinion on why he didn't so this. I didn't say they suck, I don't own them, I couldn't no. If you wish it to it to, it could constroo that I was saying that they did suck. But that wasnt what I meant. If you added 2 and then another 2 and got 5 that isn't my problem. I say again. I am dissapointed in my Café brothers being so spiteful.

I suggested the trick was possibly bad and he made a laugh out of the way I look. Totally disrespectful.
Message: Posted by: Chris Jones (Jul 12, 2006 08:11PM)
Dude lighten up you have got a pretty funny looking face. Not being outers or anything just true innit.

Criss
Message: Posted by: ldl1017 (Jul 12, 2006 08:17PM)
I think we all need to refresh ourselves with the Café rules and etiquette...on second thought, maybe the rules on human decency.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 08:24PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 20:49, ldl1017 wrote:
I just received my manuscript for Toibox today. Unlike Magicmania, I am not that impressed. The manuscript is well produced and the effects are well explained. The problem is that the effects are nothing earth shattering. Before my purchase I spent several days reading and re-reading the posts from various individuals, including Jonathon Kamm himself. I even visited Jonathon’s website prior to purchasing the effect. Jonathon has various videos of some of his routines and sleights on his site. His excellence in handling cards and coins is what prompted me to purchase Toibox. I speculated as to the method but felt it unprofessional to comment on the effect without giving the author/inventor the courtesy of having actually read the manuscript. The book consists of a history of the effect, how the effect works, handling of the Toibox, an explanation of the something’s that make the magic happen and then four routines (5 if you include a brief routine that Jonathon discusses in his closing remarks). I feel that Jonathon could easily have offered this to the magic community as a PDF download and charged half the amount. I perform table side magic at Max and Erma’s, so I will try the effects there in the upcoming weeks and see how well they are received by the lay public. I hope that my comments do not incite a riot. As I stated, I at least purchased Toibox before commenting about the effect.
Lou

[/quote]

Lou,

Nice honest review. I'll be interested to see what your reaction is after performing it. Max & Erma's is a great place to do magic. I filled in for a guy there once. What routine do you think you will perform? As for a PDF that was a personal choice to keep the stealing down to a minimum. Plus I think its easier learning from a book. You can take it with you as oposed to practicing only in front of your computer.

Thanks, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Cody Fisher (Jul 12, 2006 08:32PM)
Everyone has got to cool down. Zak, Vinny is one of the most generous and respected people on the Café, and since he sent you that vid a while back, you should have known that. Even speculating that someone's tricks possibly suck without seeing them is stupid. Being that Vinny did not even say anything bad in the first place, your post was entirely out of line. Don't make an insanely disrespectful post (disrespectful no matter how you look at it) and then be offended when you get insulted back. Vinny has been nothing but incredibly generous with his genius ideas to everyone, including you, so I think you owe him an apology, and I believe that you should seriously think about why you would say something like that so stupidly.

Cody
Message: Posted by: ldl1017 (Jul 12, 2006 08:35PM)
Jonathon,
Tri Fold and Three Way Prediction jumped out immediately. I’ll most likely work on those initially. Glad to see that my words did not offend you. I have relatives in Downers Grove, so I’ll make it a point to stop by TGIF’s some Friday or Saturday evening that I’m in town visiting to see you work. My comment regarding your videos was not said casually. You’re P**S is truly amazing. Anyone who has not visited Jonathon’s site should treat themselves immediately
Message: Posted by: ldl1017 (Jul 12, 2006 08:47PM)
Jonathon,
Just watched your latest vid about the Vaultz pencil case. I bought two...one blue and one black! They are awsome.
Lou
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 08:50PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 20:53, bosque wrote:
I got this in the mail today. Not bad; but not much more than say, card to card box. For this kind of a spin on the old trick, I have to say I still prefer "Astonishmints". Slightly gimmicked, but way stronger and more logical than a "proppy" box.
[/quote]

As was hoping for reviews from people who have gone out and performed ToiBox. I have read many effects that I thought "Well that sounds stupid. That's not gonna work." then took the time to learn them correctly and perform them to find out how great the effects are.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 12, 2006 08:56PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 21:35, ldl1017 wrote:
Jonathon,
Tri Fold and Three Way Prediction jumped out immediately. I’ll most likely work on those initially. Glad to see that my words did not offend you. I have relatives in Downers Grove, so I’ll make it a point to stop by TGIF’s some Friday or Saturday evening that I’m in town visiting to see you work. My comment regarding your videos was not said casually. You’re P**S is truly amazing. Anyone who has not visited Jonathon’s site should treat themselves immediately

[/quote]

That would be great! e-mail me when you know your coming so I don't take the night off. I can show you the finer points of ToiBox. TriFold and The Chosen One are great for walking around Three Way Prediction you need three boxes so a little harder to carry around.
Message: Posted by: djrdjr (Jul 12, 2006 09:14PM)
Downers Grove? The western suburbs were my old stomping grounds before I moved to Texas! I'll have to catch your work on a visit home, too. :)
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jul 12, 2006 09:53PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 21:07, zak plumb wrote:
I'm not sure if I am being understood hear. I will break it down. "maybe your tricks suck" means, as far as I am concrened "possibly your tricks are really bad". Thq question was about why mr Allne hadnt reposded to somethng or bought the trick. I just offered an opinion on why he didn't so this. I didn't say they suck, I don't own them, I couldn't no. If you wish it to it to, it could constroo that I was saying that they did suck. But that wasnt what I meant. If you added 2 and then another 2 and got 5 that isn't my problem. I say again. I am dissapointed in my Café brothers being so spiteful.

I suggested the trick was possibly bad and he made a laugh out of the way I look. Totally disrespectful.
[/quote]

Dude, you're lost. You can't make your own rules as to what's acceptable in response to you knuckleheaded post.

Chris
Message: Posted by: CharlieC (Jul 12, 2006 11:19PM)
I think Zak wants to sleep with the fishes.... :jesterhat:
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 13, 2006 03:19AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 22:14, djrdjr wrote:
Downers Grove? The western suburbs were my old stomping grounds before I moved to Texas! I'll have to catch your work on a visit home, too. :)
[/quote]

Yes anyone that is in the Chicago land area is more then welcome to stop in. Just Email me ahead of time. I usually hang out and have dinner after my shift. That's a good time if you want to come in and talk some magic. Check my profile to find my website.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: pepka (Jul 13, 2006 06:58AM)
I ordered this last week and have yet to receive it, so I was VERY excited to read a review. I'm rather disappointed that this thread took such an ugly turn.

Zak, I'm sure we're all very sorry to hear that you've suffered with Bells Palsey, I for one couldn't tell anything from your photo. I think Vinni's comment to you was made off the cuff. I don't think he looked at you and thought you were ugly. Vinni is one of the most respected members of this forum and really has nothing to prove, at least not to me. I've sat and sessioned with him and his stuff DEFINATELY does not suck. The man knows what he's talking about, (more so than some big names here.)

Now, as far as the trick goes. I haven't received mine yet, when I do I'll give my review. I used Kennedy's mystery box for a long time. It was one of the first expensive props I ever bought. I've since removed it from my act as I like everything to have a nice "natural" look to it. Card to wallet is one of my workhorse effects now. I use 2 different wallets, based on the situation, one breast pocket, one rear pants pocket. I have made people scream. A friend has John's DB. I like it, but the majority of my work is done strolling and I don't like to carry anything that big, espeically when my wallet is already in my pocket.

There is plenty of room for ToiBox, DB and Mystery box. But, in my opinion from what I've seen, they ALL pale in comparision to Tommy Wonder's card in ring box.

Have a nice day gentleman, and let's all try to get along.
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 13, 2006 07:47AM)
But isn't Tommy Wonder's card in ring box more about presentation than anything else? Couldn't you do essentially the same thing with TioBox? Or any box with a hinged lid for that matter? Just thinking out loud.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Jul 13, 2006 08:15AM)
In Tommy's version, you see the card in the box, it jiggles, and then the card is seen FALLING OUT OF THE BOX! Most other routines of this type use a shuttle-pass type move to do the work. Actually, Tommy's does also, but you can cleanly see only one card in the box, and then you see th card fall 3-4 inches from the box into your other hand. It is also folded smaller than other routines.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 13, 2006 06:55PM)
Since I released ToiBox I have gotten a lot of questions about wether it can do this or wether it can do that. One of the most common is "Can ToiBox be shown empty after you (the magician) remove the signed card? Well personally I feel it is not necessary to show it empty. But I enjoy a challenge and I wanted to make those who wanted this ability to be assured that ToiBox is capable of it. So I went back into the trenches to see if this could be done with ToiBox. I am happy to say that it didn't take long to come up with a way to do it. Once again it is because of the simplicity of ToiBox that it was possible. I was even surprised that I didn't think of this before. It is quite a cool.

Here is how it goes down:
A card is selected, signed and returned to the deck, lost of course. The card vanishes from the deck only to be found inside the mint tin. The tin is opened a card is seen inside, the card is dumped out and given to the spectator to open. The tin is also immediately given to the spectator to examine all they want. It is empty and free of any gaffs. There you have it. It is incredibly simple to accomplish and can be done seated standing and surrounded. I will be writting this up and including it in the second printing of the book and don't worry those who have bought ToiBox already will be receiving a pdf copy of the photo illustrated explaination. I had the pleasure of video chatting with David Pepka today. We both have Macs so this is possible. Full screen full motion video none of that stutter stuff. Macs are so cool. David has bought Toibox and I was able to do a live performance for him and talk about the finer points. I also showed him the idea of showing the box clean after the signed card is removed. He said "Woah! do that again." I showed it to him again and he aggreed that that has to be put in the book. So I should be able to finish that up this week and get the pdf out to all who have purchased ToiBox already.

Thanks, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 13, 2006 07:43PM)
I just want to mention that if you haven't visited Jonathan Website, do yourself a favor and watch his demmo videos. I thought I was good, he's "very" good. Enjoyed your handling of Smiley Face card (Richard Sanders DVD/reference)The additional moves are outstanding especially the last revelation. Off Topic a bit as far as Toibox, but I just HAD to mention this. Woluld love to learn this one.
David Paul
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 13, 2006 08:11PM)
Showing the box empty afterward, now that's cool.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Jul 13, 2006 09:13PM)
I had a brief "webcam chat/session" with Jonathan today and he showed me the handling where the box is empty at the end and can be handed out, or even given to the spectator. This is beautiful and I believe justifies the price. If you bought one and it's not in the notes, ask nicely and he may share with you. He said he'll put it in the next version of the notes.
Message: Posted by: kamus (Jul 13, 2006 09:55PM)
Tommy Wonder's card to ringbox, to use an overworked phrase, is completely awesome. The thought and detail involved in this effect is nothing less than inspirational.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 14, 2006 09:19AM)
No doubt Tommy wonders Ring box is a killer effect....However this thread is about toi box and we as magicians are tying to get reviews about it good or bad
vinny
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 14, 2006 09:28AM)
In regards to the Tommy Wonder routine, what I was trying to say in my earlier post is that, with some finessing, you could do the same thing with a ToiBox or another hinged box.

Jonathan's new handling definitely intrigues me.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 14, 2006 10:27AM)
Cfrancis thank you for that info
this will help
vinny
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Jul 14, 2006 10:56AM)
Magicians are liars and thieves. Now hear me out before we all become indignant.

This idea of a card to box has been around a long time. The Kennedy box, Destination Box, and this latest Toibox are basically variants. The most unique of the three is the Kennedy variant because it cleans up the gimmick. John Allen's version changes the moment and object of the move, but requires more work to do so and is admittedly a larger item (I own both Jon's and the Kennedy). Each of the marketed effects have borrowed idea and worked out different yet similar solutions. So ALL have stolen the original idea. Okay you may not like the term "steal" or "stolen" but in music this type of borrowing might require one to pay royalties to the originator of the card to box using a card fake and S****** P*** (Jon's version doesn't use a card fake, so in that respect is different, but the idea is still in play). I've noticed that Jim Steinmeyer is giving a lecture at Muhlenberg College in Bethlehem PA called "The Myth of the New Idea", I believe that that's what we have in play throughout magic and certainly here.

It calls to mind the joke: How many magicians does it take to screw in a light bulb? 40(actually any number), 1 to screw it in and 39 to tell you about their handling.

This “thing” came about in the thread about 3 fly… Get over it already.

There you have it. All of these tricks are versions and variations of the same trick. Which is better? It depends on your wallet, pocket space, and skill level. In skilled hands anyone of them will create the same effect. Oh as far as magicians being liars; well we are: "I have cut the rope in half!" No you didn't you liar.

The contentious point with Toibox is in the impression the advertising creates that the spectator can remove the signed card. I do believe that that point has been clarified and in the interest of being honest in a small market as magic is ought to be changed. As far as the box being empty or not well, if you can’t sell your s****** p*** then that’s your fault not the box’s.

Magic advertising is inherently full in omissions and partial truths but so is most other advertising. The idea that we buy the secret has worn thin with me. I KNOW most of the secrets, with some exceptions, what I buy is the right to perform someone else’s routine or a quality prop or in the best circumstances both. So those of you that repackage old ideas without either of those elements should expect criticism from the buying public or ethical individuals that can see through your veiled attempt at marketing someone else’s effect.
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 14, 2006 02:23PM)
It's ALL been done before. All anyone is ever selling are variations. What's wrong with that?
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 14, 2006 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 11:56, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
Magicians are liars and thieves. Now hear me out before we all become indignant.

This idea of a card to box has been around a long time. The Kennedy box, Destination Box, and this latest Toibox are basically variants. The most unique of the three is the Kennedy variant because it cleans up the gimmick. John Allen's version changes the moment and object of the move, but requires more work to do so and is admittedly a larger item (I own both Jon's and the Kennedy). Each of the marketed effects have borrowed idea and worked out different yet similar solutions. So ALL have stolen the original idea. Okay you may not like the term "steal" or "stolen" but in music this type of borrowing might require one to pay royalties to the originator of the card to box using a card fake and S****** P*** (Jon's version doesn't use a card fake, so in that respect is different, but the idea is still in play). I've noticed that Jim Steinmeyer is giving a lecture at Muhlenberg College in Bethlehem PA called "The Myth of the New Idea", I believe that that's what we have in play throughout magic and certainly here.

It calls to mind the joke: How many magicians does it take to screw in a light bulb? 40(actually any number), 1 to screw it in and 39 to tell you about their handling.

This “thing” came about in the thread about 3 fly… Get over it already.

There you have it. All of these tricks are versions and variations of the same trick. Which is better? It depends on your wallet, pocket space, and skill level. In skilled hands anyone of them will create the same effect. Oh as far as magicians being liars; well we are: "I have cut the rope in half!" No you didn't you liar.

The contentious point with Toibox is in the impression the advertising creates that the spectator can remove the signed card. I do believe that that point has been clarified and in the interest of being honest in a small market as magic is ought to be changed. As far as the box being empty or not well, if you can’t sell your s****** p*** then that’s your fault not the box’s.

Magic advertising is inherently full in omissions and partial truths but so is most other advertising. The idea that we buy the secret has worn thin with me. I KNOW most of the secrets, with some exceptions, what I buy is the right to perform someone else’s routine or a quality prop or in the best circumstances both. So those of you that repackage old ideas without either of those elements should expect criticism from the buying public or ethical individuals that can see through your veiled attempt at marketing someone else’s effect.
[/quote]

Carlo,

Thank you for taking the time to write such an educated well thought out post. I am glad you mentioned the fact that the box doesn't need to be shown empty if you sell your S****** P*** correctly. I couldn't agree more. Yes there are many similar card to box effects on the market. But I believe ToiBox is the "Card To Box" effect presented in it's simplest streamlined form. I have removed all the disadvantages of other similar effects and put the magic in the skill of the performer and not in the box. This makes ToiBox different and keeps it incredibly clean. I look at ToiBox as more of an Okito Coin Box for cards because its how you handle it not what the box does. Most other Card To Box effects were designed with one effect in mind. ToiBox is completely open to your own personal handling and ideas. Some of you have already shared some ideas that I had not thought of.

Note: To all who have bought ToiBox I did a lot of work last night on the idea of showing the box empty after you remove the spectators signed card. It is a simple and lovely move. I've done the photos and will write the text this weekend and get it in PDF format for all who have already bought ToiBox. The second printing for ToiBox is coming up soon and the second edition will include the new handling. I work my restaurants on the weekend so expect the pdf to be ready early next week.

Thanks, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Luke Dancy (Jul 14, 2006 02:57PM)
How is this any different from Shawn Ingram's "Astonish Mints" which was released by Diamond Jim? You have a signed card that appears inside a tin of mints that is on the table. The signed card to immpossible location has been done before and it seems this ToiBox variation has already been done before and released on the market. Just my thoughts.

Your friend in magic,
Luke Dancy
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jul 14, 2006 03:20PM)
Luke,

With "Astonish Mints" you can show the box empty immediately after "the move"...pretty neat actually...

I hope this helps,
Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: Luke Dancy (Jul 14, 2006 04:24PM)
Thanks Cody! I'm just curious though, why is this new version being released? Their have been plenty of published ways to do a card to box effect so why is a simple tin being sold with the same method. From Kaps to Wonder, and even Swiss and Bannon they all use the same basic method and I just don't understand why this 'new' version is being marketed. Perhaps you guys could open my eyes a bit on this. Thanks!

Your friend in magic,
Luke Dancy
Message: Posted by: mgshn (Jul 14, 2006 04:31PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 17:24, Luke Dancy wrote:
I'm just curious though, why is this new version being released?
[/quote]

Could it be because people are willing to buy it?
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 14, 2006 05:26PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 17:24, Luke Dancy wrote:
Thanks Cody! I'm just curious though, why is this new version being released? Their have been plenty of published ways to do a card to box effect so why is a simple tin being sold with the same method. From Kaps to Wonder, and even Swiss and Bannon they all use the same basic method and I just don't understand why this 'new' version is being marketed. Perhaps you guys could open my eyes a bit on this. Thanks!

Your friend in magic,
Luke Dancy
[/quote]

Luke,

ToiBox is not gimmicked. After the signed card is removed, the box can be given to the spectator. They can keep it if they want. There is nothing to find. ToiBox is different then the Kaps versions and other similar versions. It is routined in a way that the spectator can also remove their selected card from the box. When they remove their card it is not signed but you removed their signed selection just before that so it is not necesarry to have them sign it the second time and you get the strength of them actually holding the tin and removing their card. (btw: They will remember it as being their signed selection) :)

Astonishmints, Kennedy Mystery Box and most others that I am aware of are all gimmicked boxes. If you want a clean completely examinable card to box effect ToiBox is the answer. ToiBox is perfect for the walk a round and restaurant performer. Packs small, plays big and is the cleanest card to box on the market.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jul 14, 2006 05:38PM)
Luke,

As this is not my product I am not sure why it's being released as something "new". Like others have stated...I am not sure what is "new" about this effect. This would have a made a nice addition to someone's lecture notes or maybe even on a DVD with some other items?

Anyway, I purchased this simply because I happen to "collect" card to box type routines. I have studied and researched this plot many years so I am perhaps a little biased.

If you are into using everyday objects then this may appeal to you. However I would also suggest that you take a look at Jon Allens video. He suggests a method using mint tins that is basically a "Poor Mans Destination Box". In his method the spectator can actually remove the "signed card" from the mint tin themselves.

Take care my friends,
Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 14, 2006 07:41PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 11:56, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
Magicians are liars and thieves. Now hear me out before we all become indignant.

This idea of a card to box has been around a long time. The Kennedy box, Destination Box, and this latest Toibox are basically variants. The most unique of the three is the Kennedy variant because it cleans up the gimmick. John Allen's version changes the moment and object of the move, but requires more work to do so and is admittedly a larger item [/quote]

I'd think the one that doesn't use the same gimmick as all the others would be seen as the "unique" one.

Also, I'm not sure if the DB does require more work. it uses the same move as the others but with less heat on the moment. Also, 'work' is purely subjective and it is not confined to simply the mechanics of a move. There is audience management, conviction, presentation, the sell and naturalness of handling. Just because a prop (ANY prop) does a job and creates and effect, it will not work without evrything else being correct.

Regards,
Jon
Message: Posted by: MagicbyCarlo (Jul 14, 2006 08:15PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 20:41, Jon Allen wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 11:56, MagicbyCarlo wrote:
Magicians are liars and thieves. Now hear me out before we all become indignant.

This idea of a card to box has been around a long time. The Kennedy box, Destination Box, and this latest Toibox are basically variants. The most unique of the three is the Kennedy variant because it cleans up the gimmick. John Allen's version changes the moment and object of the move, but requires more work to do so and is admittedly a larger item [/quote]

I'd think the one that doesn't use the same gimmick as all the others would be seen as the "unique" one.

Also, I'm not sure if the DB does require more work. it uses the same move as the others but with less heat on the moment. Also, 'work' is purely subjective and it is not confined to simply the mechanics of a move. There is audience management, conviction, presentation, the sell and naturalness of handling. Just because a prop (ANY prop) does a job and creates and effect, it will not work without evrything else being correct.

Regards,
Jon
[/quote]
Jon, yes, “work” is subjective, and my comment was an observation based on using both methods successfully and certainly not an attack on your method, which again, I own. I am also a fan of your work on other effects. I would say the loading procedure of the Destination Box has a couple of more steps than the Mystery Box (which doesn't use the same gimmick). Does this make it harder, better, worse? That is left up to the user. I like the simplicity of the Mystery Box, but the Destination Box has a strong "no way!" moment when the spectator pops open the pill case and removes the card themselves. One thing that has kept me from using the Destination Box is that I found a great Silver Skeleton Key key ring and being in contact with the pillbox it discolored the pillbox. I did purchase spare pillboxes, but for now I’d rather not be bothered fussing too much, so for now I do card to wallet (Mullica). We magicians wring our hands and fuss over the impossibility without regard for the fact that, with a minority of exception, the average person simply experiences a signed card having traveled to an impossible location, whether it is a wallet, box, pocket or fly.

Again is this about the audience experience or the ego of the creators of magic tricks or variant handlings?

I say it about the former. This discussion however is about the latter,

David Gish wrote on SAMTalk and I quote without permission here, but it IS so appropriate:

When I consider the scope of humankind; triumph and
tragedy in reference of recorded history; then consider how we are at
best mere actors that strut and fret on our little stages for such
brief moments; often railing at one another over such insignificant
trivial issues. I an equivocal whether to laugh or lament; so I choose
to laugh (sometimes sigh)
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Jul 14, 2006 08:45PM)
Nice quote.
Message: Posted by: evolve629 (Jul 14, 2006 09:21PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-14 18:38, fishermagic wrote:
If you are into using everyday objects then this may appeal to you. However I would also suggest that you take a look at Jon Allens video. He suggests a method using mint tins that is basically a "Poor Mans Destination Box". In his method the spectator can actually remove the "signed card" from the mint tin themselves.
[/quote]
The Destination Box routine in Jon Allen's Spectators Don't Exist DVD is worth the price of the DVD itself!
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 15, 2006 01:10AM)
Ok here is a list of advantages ToiBox has over other similar Card to Box Effects.

1. ToiBox is ungimmicked
2. ToiBox packs the smallest
3. ToiBox instantly resets
4. ToiBox ends perfectly clean and examinable
5. ToiBox has more routine possibilities because of it's ungimmicked nature
6. ToiBox is inexpensive
7. ToiBox can let the spectator remove the card (though it isn't signed it is still something the Kaps like boxes can't do.) The John Allen box allows this with a signed card but costs 8 times the cost of ToiBox.
8. Toibox tin is cheaply replacable.
9. ToiBox tin can be dropped and kicked and beat up and still work just fine.
10. ToiBox tin is a regular mint tin and does not arouse suspicion.

These are all valid advantages that ToiBox has over other Card To Box effects.
I would like anyone to make a list of 10 advantages any of the marketed Card To Box Effects have over ToiBox.
Wether the trick is stronger or not does not count as an advantage. That is relative to the performer and the presentation. I still stand by ToiBox as being the best Card To Box effect out there for the money. If you like the bells and whistles and gadgety boxes then ToiBox is not for you. But if you are out there working every week and want something you can count on to get the job done, has endless creative possibilities, works worry free, efficiently and packs small then ToiBox is it.
Message: Posted by: CharlieC (Jul 15, 2006 02:34AM)
This effect should have been marketed as routines for the classic card to box effect. Instead, you insist on touting this as the greatest box ever for the card to box effect. You compare your box to other gimmicked boxes when you should be comparing your routine to other ungimmicked routines. You are misleading us by making us think the box is something new and fantastic.

I think having the spec remove the card the 2nd time is a great idea. I wish you tried to sell us on the routine instead of making us think the ToiBox is the bestest box ever invented for the price.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 15, 2006 03:43AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 03:34, CharlieC wrote:
This effect should have been marketed as routines for the classic card to box effect. Instead, you insist on touting this as the greatest box ever for the card to box effect. You compare your box to other gimmicked boxes when you should be comparing your routine to other ungimmicked routines. You are misleading us by making us think the box is something new and fantastic.

I think having the spec remove the card the 2nd time is a great idea. I wish you tried to sell us on the routine instead of making us think the ToiBox is the bestest box ever invented for the price.
[/quote]

Here is what I said " I still stand by ToiBox as being the best Card To Box effect out there for the money." I am selling an effect not just the box. I compared my effect to other Card To Box effects. Yes my effect uses a specific style of box that's all.

I am only defending my product against the questions of "What is so special about ToiBox? How is this different then Card To Box effects already on the market?" I think I defended it well by giving 10 advantages ToiBox has over similar effects. If these advatages are not something you are looking for simply don't buy it. I am not mis-leading anyone I am only dealing with facts.
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Jul 15, 2006 04:12AM)
[quote]
1. ToiBox is ungimmicked
2. ToiBox packs the smallest
3. ToiBox instantly resets
4. ToiBox ends perfectly clean and examinable
5. ToiBox has more routine possibilities because of it's ungimmicked nature
6. ToiBox is inexpensive
7. ToiBox can let the spectator remove the card (though it isn't signed it is still something the Kaps like boxes can't do.) The John Allen box allows this with a signed card but costs 8 times the cost of ToiBox.
8. Toibox tin is cheaply replacable.
9. ToiBox tin can be dropped and kicked and beat up and still work just fine.
10. ToiBox tin is a regular mint tin and does not arouse suspicion.

[/quote]

it seams like my simplex card to box..... but that's cool:)
By the way for this history of this effect it was invented by a guy named Joro and popularised by Fred Kaps
arthur
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 15, 2006 04:20AM)
Authur, is yours like the Kaps version? You can PM me if you like.
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 15, 2006 04:50AM)
...If you have trouble viewing the [url=http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/ToiBox/ToiBox.html][b]ToiBox Demo...[/b][/url]

[url=http://www.filehippo.com/download/e27106a688585c9b414737c68d08e8aa/download/][b]...then use this better alternative to QuickTime![/b][/url]

[i]Anyone that has this effect...[/i] [b]is it worth the $$$?[/b]


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Jul 15, 2006 06:40AM)
I pmed you Jonathan
Take care
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 15, 2006 03:49PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 02:10, kammagic wrote:
Ok here is a list of advantages ToiBox has over other similar Card to Box Effects.
[/quote]

Hi Jonathan,

In case I don't need to reply, do you see The Destination Box as a similar C2B effect?

Thinking about it, is it better to start a "Which Card to box is appropriate for me?" thread instead of taking up posts on a thread meant for the reviews of Toibox?

Regards,
Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 15, 2006 04:07PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 16:49, Jon Allen wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 02:10, kammagic wrote:
Ok here is a list of advantages ToiBox has over other similar Card to Box Effects.
[/quote]

Hi Jonathan,

In case I don't need to reply, do you see The Destination Box as a similar C2B effect?

Thinking about it, is it better to start a "Which Card to box is appropriate for me?" thread instead of taking up posts on a thread meant for the reviews of Toibox?

Regards,
Jon
[/quote]
Jon,

Well it is similar in that it is a Card To Box effect and people seem to keep bringing it up here in comparison to ToiBox. I believe yours sounds more like a feature item something you would use in a parlor or private show setting where ToiBox is meant for the walk a round/restaurant performer.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 15, 2006 05:33PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 17:07, kammagic wrote:
Well it is similar in that it is a Card To Box effect and people seem to keep bringing it up here in comparison to ToiBox. I believe yours sounds more like a feature item something you would use in a parlor or private show setting where ToiBox is meant for the walk a round/restaurant performer.

, Jonathan
[/quote]

Hi Jonathan,

Comparisons are being made between the two which is unfair.

I thought you knew about the Destination Box but your comment suggests that you do not. It is suitable for parlour or formal setting but I did it in restaurants for 3 years when I was working them. I have used the sam ewooden box in mix & mingle/ walkabout / reception / banquet/ house party etc for about 5 years. You asked for anyone to come up with 10 advantages of another box over Toibox. I have come up with 15 so far but this is meant to be a thread for reviews of Toibox which I would much rather see. If someone wishes to start a thread of "Which Card to Box is best for me?" then that should be the place to start that.

I would like to pick up on two advantages you listed because it is more about performance. You said "ToiBox is ungimmicked". If something is ungimmicked, it does not necessarily mean it has an advantage over something gimmicked. There is always a trade off with either application. Gimmicked usually means less sleight of hand required; a slightly less awkward handling or a lack of openness and freedom of movement/handling. Taking a prop out of the performing zone gives a distorted view of its effectiveness in performance. To say 'ungimmicked' is an advantage is to ignore everything that is invovled in performing with it. I think if something gimmicked makes the handling easier, the presentation clearer and the performance cleaner then that is something people take into consideration.

"ToiBox tin can be dropped and kicked and beat up and still work just fine."
Exactly what type of places do you perform in!!! ;-)


Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 15, 2006 06:11PM)
Ungimmicked is always better then gimmicked. I will write more later I am off to work now.

, Jon
Message: Posted by: Craig Petty (Jul 15, 2006 06:14PM)
I have used the Destination Box for about a year now and I never go anywhere without it. I work a lot of restaurants and perform it all the time, it is as practical as any box of mints and dare I say it way more professional looking (especially at weddings and corporates). What I like about the destination box is how versitile it is. I can put it on the table when I appraoch and use it whenever I want for whatever routine I want. I can make a ring appear in the box (from a ring and string routine). I am make a signed note appear in the box, I can make one of their own business cards signed by them appear in the box (this is my favourite use in a corporate environment). I even use it to do a newspaper prediction in my cabaret act. The advantages of this are immense.

Last week I was at a wedding and I was in the middle of the standard card to box with the DB when the speaches started. I left the box with the table I was on while I went and did a brief kids show in a seperate room with the kids. When I returned I went back to the table and finished the routine, they freaked from their POV there was no way I could have done that. Is there any other card to box on the market I could have done that with.

I have used it in table hopping, champagne receptions, corporate gigs - everything and it is the one prop I would be without.

Johnathan I wish you luck with your product however you keep talking about how the spectator can pull their card from the box, well when you come up with an idea of how this can be done with a signed card I will be interested. At the moment the DB is the onbly box I knwo that can do that.

Craig P
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (Jul 15, 2006 06:29PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 19:11, kammagic wrote:
Ungimmicked is always better then gimmicked. I will write more later I am off to work now.

, Jon
[/quote]

Well, there goes your credibility.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 15, 2006 07:08PM)
I my self hate gimmicks ,however using a gimmick with slight of hand is the best of both worlds..
vinny
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 15, 2006 07:45PM)
I just got dizzy reading five pages of this... and perhaps missed an answer to my pressing question:

Can you keep mints in the box and let the volunteer remove a mint?
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (Jul 15, 2006 11:36PM)
Yes, it's just a normal box of mints. I'm not 100% sure what the guy is selling. The routine seems fairly standard and the box is ungimmicked.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 16, 2006 12:14AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-15 20:45, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
I just got dizzy reading five pages of this... and perhaps missed an answer to my pressing question:

Can you keep mints in the box and let the volunteer remove a mint?
[/quote]

Jonathan,

At what point do you want the spectator to be able to remove a mint. Before their card is found inside or after?

, Jonathan2
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 16, 2006 01:18AM)
Ungimmicked vs. Gimmicked

ok I think you guys need to know more about my philosophy about working walk-a-round. When I approach a table I am carrying nothing, I wear a vest not a jacket and my sleeves are rolled up. I want to carry as little on me as possible. Every magician I know does invisible deck I won't do it because it is something extra to carry. Every trick I learn or buy must pack small(very small) and have more then one use otherwise it aint coming with me. I did magic behind a bar for 11 years. Behind a bar you can do anything. I had a nice case with all my goodies in it. But when I started doing restaurant work I sacrficed many of my favorite effects mainly because I refused to carry all that around with me. Over the 14 years I have been doing restaurants I have trimmed myself down to a lean mean magic machine. Everything I carry on me must be very strong and take up little or no space at all on my body. I have enough on me to handle any situation at the restaurant up to a 30 minute set if I have to but have never needed to do that long. So you see where I am coming from when I say I don't like gimmicks. 90% of the time using a gimmick means you have to carry something extra. The only way I will carry one is it must be small or nonexistant and have more then one use and be a very strong effect. For example I do use a Steve Draun Real Man's wallet and that could be looked at as me carrying a gimmick. But the Real Man's wallet is my actual day to day wallet so I would be carrying it any way. So it's like a gimmick that takes up no space. Of course we all know the strength of card to wallet so that is another plus. Now the size of a gimmick is one issue but my main reason for not wanting to carry gimmicks is the reliance we get to them. I want total self reliance. A gimmick is like a crutch to me. If the effect is good enough I will take the time to work a way out to do it with out the gimmick before I will carry the gimmick around with me. If I can't work out a way to do it gimmickless then I aint doing it. There is plenty of other strong magic out there that doesn't rely on a gimmick. When working restuarants you always have repeat customers and there is nothing worse then a customer requesting the Sazalfram trick and you didn't bring your Sazalfram gimmick or it broke the night before. Yikes! Working the way I do unreliant on gimmicks I am always ready to perform any requested effect. I think it was Mark Twain who said life should be as simple as possible and no simpler. I believe that way about magic.

So with all this in mind I carry ToiBox with me whenever I work it has gained the right to travel with me from table to table. It packs small plays big has many uses and is super clean. Once a customers sees it they will always reqest it on return visits. This friday night when I first arrived at work a "regular" sitting at the bar was there with a friend of his who had never seen me. The first thing out of his mouth was "You gotta do the Altoids trick for my friend here" I did it and even did the new handling which allows you to give them the tin immediatly after you remove thier card. This effect is so unbelievable to layman. He even requested that I do the 3 tin version which is a prediction effect. That floored them just as well and to magician's it 's the same effect really but laymen just don't get it. The prediction effect is very very strong. I would have to say one of the strongest effects on layman I know. Its one of those effects that sneak up on them you can see it in there face the more they think about it they realize how imposible it was and everything is done so openly and fair.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jul 16, 2006 02:01AM)
Kam,


Your effect is not a new concept, gimmicked or ungimmicked. I watched the video and your effect is good, but there are other effects based on the same principal that also have advantages.

Heck I did an impromptu version with a cracker box after someone said "hey, can you make my card appear in that box?" Yep, I did it and it went over strong, just like your effect (Nabisco owes me big time).

By the way "gimmick" can take several interpretations. Your Toibox is gimmicked. There is a set up, there is a gimmicked box, and there is a way of removing the gimmick, which is obvious to those of us familar with the principal.

I'm well aware that the average Joe isn't going to figure it out, but Jon's box doesn't scream gimmick any more than your little mint tin brother. Either way, the specatator doesn't have a clue.

In the end though, I would like the spectator to go home telling his friends: "I opened the case and I pulled out my own signed card, it was unbelievable, I pulled it out!!!."

Cheers.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 16, 2006 02:45AM)
Tdowell wrote:

Kam,

Philosophy Smilosophy. Your effect is not a new concept, gimmicked or ungimmicked. I watched the video and your effect is good, but it has problems. Why are you putting the lid on the box so quick? That's what I would expect my audience to question.

Response:
All heat is on the folded card they never question the box. Only a magician would.

--------------------------------------------------
tdowell wrote:

By the way "gimmick" can take several interpretations. Your Toibox is gimmicked. There is a set up, there is a gimmicked box, and there is a way of removing the gimmick, which is obvious to those of us familar with the principal.

response:

If you think it is gimmicked like the kaps version it is not.

-----------------------------------------
tdowell wrote:

I'm well aware that the average Joe isn't going to figure it out, but Jon's box doesn't scream gimmick any more than your little mint tin brother. Either way, the specatator doesn't have a clue.

response:
From my experience I must disaggree with you.

------------------------------------

tdowell wrote:

In the end though, I would like the spectator to go home telling his friends: "I opened the case and I pulled out my own signed card, it was unbelievable, I pulled it out!!!."

Cheers.

response:

Jons trick is a great effect and is definately a wonderful addition to the magic world. My trick is also a great effect. I would of never compared my trick to his but everyone here seems to think they need to compare the 2. His effect and mine work differently and each have unique advantages. There is room for more then one Card To Box Effect on the market.

But I guess according to most of you here there is only one Card To Box effect worth anything.

With my routining I have heard spectators explain the trick to their friends and they always remember the effect as removing the signed card themselves. I find that part of magic very funny. They always descibe spongeballs as " My hand was empty I closed my hand then opened it and there were 3 balls in my hand" not true but I aint gonna tell them.
Message: Posted by: mgshn (Jul 16, 2006 06:43AM)
I just got my ToiBox notes, accompanied by a still-sealed tin of refreshing breath mints. The notes provide useful details, accompanied with detailed photographs on how to use the box that holds the mints, or any other small container, to do some amazing card magic. The details include describing a couple slights, one which has been in print almost since the Greek Gods were popular (get it?) and the other is unique (to me at least) and describes an interesting subtlety for extracting a folded playing card from a small container.

The container is ungimmicked. However, there is a suggestion of how you could gimmick it if you like and how to handle it if you care to leave it alone. (By ungimicked I would imply that no glue, tape, wax, magnets, phlegm, etc are employed). Also included in the notes, to read and absorb while you are enjoying the mints, are a few (five or six depending on how you count things) routines. The one used by the author 90% of the time is the standard Card to Can routine with two extra moments on the way to the ending, suggestions for covering the move, and an optional extra effect (second phase). This is where a second card is chosen and not signed, appears in the tin, is removed by a spectator, and winds up being their selected (and still unsigned) card. I would stop with the first phase, possibly including the extra moments.

So, is it worth $20? If you don't do a card to can then absolutely. This type of effect can be a lasting memory for a spectator. If you already do a C2C then it still might for the extra touches it could provide to your existing routine.

Is it a destination box? Absolutely not. It is also not better it is not worse. It is different and in a way that I suggested in a previous post, about a mile back in this very thread. (in a nutshell, the TB isn't "big enough" to play to a crowd (The Destination Box certainly does) and the DB is, for some, a but much to take on a stroll.) To put it another way, the DB is more amazing, the TB is more portable. Also, as someone else mentioned a long way back, this isn't about the box, it's about the notes.

Bob Tobias

P.S. imho
Message: Posted by: MarianoG (Jul 16, 2006 06:53AM)
4 days online. NOBODY is going to say nothing about the copyright broken by METACAFE.com concerning a very famous soda can trick!!!????
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 16, 2006 06:54AM)
Hi Jonathan,

Having read your post about how you perform, I think what you meant was that for your personal personal style, ungimmicked is better for you. Everyone has there own criteria for choosing the effects they perform. Personally, I don't like tricks where I'm just showing people what can be done without any interaction. That's fine and I am sure nobody can argue with your reasons.

Something that comes on on here a lot is when magicians say, "My audience never notice this / see that / question this / remember that etc. etc. We as magicians can dictate people s thougt processes up to a certain point. Beyond that, some people will notice something or they will form a logical chain of thought that leads them to question something. An example for this topic:

A card ends up in a box sitting on a table:
He never went near the box
A folded card is seen in the box
The magician unfolds the card and it's my signed one.

Possible thought process:
My card did not vanish from the pack of cards and transport itself into the box
The card in the box was not my card
The magician must have somehow swtiched it for my one.

I don't know what % of people don't think like this but I would think a decent % will. Depending on the performance, some may assume you sneaked in in the box without them noticing. There will be a number who will want to work out how it was done and can reconstruct it to come up with the right answer. Even though I have tried to negate all possibilities, I have had about 10 people come up to me and tell me how I did the trick. People do like to solve a good mystery and no mater how much we try and avoid them doing so, we cannot be successful all the time.

I agree with Jonathan that there is room for more than one C2B on the market for the same reason there are variants in everything from cars to mobile phones. You have to look at what you want from the prop; whether it suits your performance criteria; whether it suits the type of performances you do and whether it fits with your abilities as a performer.

If anything, Toibox should be compared to Arthur's Simplex Card to Box. Both are not too expensive and use basic containers. When I first heard that he had come up with a C2B where the person could remove their signed card I was a little worried and very intrigued! When I saw it, I relaxed as it is totally different to mine in terms of handling and technical data. Check it out along with Toibox if you would like to see a Coke/Pepsi challenge!

Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 16, 2006 03:20PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-16 07:59, Jon Allen wrote:

If anything, Toibox should be compared to Arthur's Simplex Card to Box. Both are not too expensive and use basic containers. When I first heard that he had come up with a C2B where the person could remove their signed card I was a little worried and very intrigued! When I saw it, I relaxed as it is totally different to mine in terms of handling and technical data. Check it out along with Toibox if you would like to see a Coke/Pepsi challenge!

Jon
[/quote]
Thanks Jon,

Yes I have talked with Arthur and our effects are similar in that they use simple props. But ToiBox and Arthurs Simplex Card To Box have totally different handlings. So all the Card To Box effects I know of are all unique and have there specific handlings and advantages. So there should be one out there for everybody.

Jon K.


[quote]
On 2006-07-16 07:43, mgshn wrote:
I just got my ToiBox notes, accompanied by a still-sealed tin of refreshing breath mints. The notes provide useful details, accompanied with detailed photographs on how to use the box that holds the mints, or any other small container, to do some amazing card magic. The details include describing a couple slights, one which has been in print almost since the Greek Gods were popular (get it?) and the other is unique (to me at least) and describes an interesting subtlety for extracting a folded playing card from a small container.

The container is ungimmicked. However, there is a suggestion of how you could gimmick it if you like and how to handle it if you care to leave it alone. (By ungimicked I would imply that no glue, tape, wax, magnets, phlegm, etc are employed). Also included in the notes, to read and absorb while you are enjoying the mints, are a few (five or six depending on how you count things) routines. The one used by the author 90% of the time is the standard Card to Can routine with two extra moments on the way to the ending, suggestions for covering the move, and an optional extra effect (second phase). This is where a second card is chosen and not signed, appears in the tin, is removed by a spectator, and winds up being their selected (and still unsigned) card. I would stop with the first phase, possibly including the extra moments.

So, is it worth $20? If you don't do a card to can then absolutely. This type of effect can be a lasting memory for a spectator. If you already do a C2C then it still might for the extra touches it could provide to your existing routine.

Is it a destination box? Absolutely not. It is also not better it is not worse. It is different and in a way that I suggested in a previous post, about a mile back in this very thread. (in a nutshell, the TB isn't "big enough" to play to a crowd (The Destination Box certainly does) and the DB is, for some, a but much to take on a stroll.) To put it another way, the DB is more amazing, the TB is more portable. Also, as someone else mentioned a long way back, this isn't about the box, it's about the notes.

Bob Tobias

P.S. imho
[/quote]
Bob,

Thanks I am glad you like it. I will be looking forward to hearing your experiences after performing it.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: simon hughes (Jul 16, 2006 07:19PM)
John you mentioned that you have seventeen better things over a toi box I am wondering what they are?

What flavour mints are most suitable for toi box?

with best magical regards,

Simonhug
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 17, 2006 09:12AM)
Hi Simon,

I don't think it's appropriate to list all 17 advantages in a thread meant for reviews of another product. I will say that I PMed Jonathan the list and apparently only 6 are valid!

Amongst those that aren't, according to Jonathan, valid advantages are:

# You feel safe that only you can open the box. There is no worry that a ‘grabber’ will open TDB ahead of time and ruin the effect.

# TDB can be adapted to specific events and personalised to your own persona or performing style.

# Change what goes in the box mid-performance.

Oh well :)

Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 17, 2006 02:33PM)
Simon,

Yes Jon and I talked and no surprises. Both our items are different so each has unique advantages over the other. The Destination Box is a high end product and well worth the money. ToiBox is inexpensive and shines over similarly priced Card To Box Effects.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Ethan (Jul 17, 2006 04:03PM)
I think a valid advantage of the DB is that it is more versatile. I use it upwards of 4 gigs a week and I've actually never used it for a card. My main use is for the appearance of a ring vanished earlier and the spectator gets to open the container holding the ring for themselves. This can not be done with Toibox. Since I'm happy to carry TDB with me so Toibox doesn't offer me much, however if space is a real issue then this is where Toibox scores very highly.
Message: Posted by: camador (Jul 17, 2006 05:26PM)
This has been very misleading!!!

Cheers
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 18, 2006 07:51AM)
Just wanted to mention that Jonathan, as promised, has sent via PDF an additional handling showing the tin empty after the the spectators signed card is dumped out of the box. (see previous threads) I also received the Toibox tin and book yesterday and echo Bob Tobias' review at the top of this page. I already do a CTB but am glad I bought Toibox. There are some (why didn't I think of that) routines
that I will use. I work restaurants so pocket space is at a premium, this fits the bill with the audience impact they expect. I'm glad I bought it.
David Paul
Message: Posted by: Cody S. Fisher (Jul 18, 2006 11:50AM)
Hey guys,

I reviewed this effect a few pages ago. At that time I stated that this was an "OK" product. My review was based on the fact that there was nothing really "new" as far the CTB plot. For those that are interested in doing magic with everyday objects...you will probably like this. For those of you looking for something a little nicer TDB is probably a better investment.

Anyway, why am I posting again on this topic? Well, I just received a .pdf file from Jonathan that outlines a method that will allow you to show the box empty after the sh*ttl* p*ss. It is is not too difficult and allows you to end pretty clean. So if you are concerned about showing the box empty...now you can...

I hope this helps...

Cody S. Fisher
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Jul 18, 2006 11:59AM)
Well, well after 6 pages.. the ctb plot goes on and I think that because of this thread Jonathan came up with something new that he shares to his custumer.
well done ;)
arthur
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 18, 2006 01:39PM)
Hello,

As mentioned I sent out PDFs to all ToiBox buyers. The PDF explains how to hand out the box completely clean after removal of their signed card. This will appear in the second printing of the book which is coming up soon. I was able to send to all the people who paid through PayPal but if I missed someone who paid through the mail please contact me with an Email and I will send out the PDF of the new page immediately.

Thank you for all the positive comments about ToiBox in your replys.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: B_Bishop (Jul 20, 2006 04:20AM)
Hey fellas,

This is my first post on this site, however, my review of this product was copied and pasted from another site. This was done with my permission.

I have read this post at the request of a few friends, including Jonathan, and I have to say there are some semantic loving quibblers around here. I want to say that the thing I liked the best about this product was where it took me creatively. I have already devised a method other than the shu**le Pa** for revealing the folded card that fits my presentation, and I had already used this method as a way of showing the box empty. My point is not how cool I am. My point is that it WILL get the creative juices going. I personally like giving spectators their signed business cards back to them using this fun utility device.(a la Gary Kurtz)

Jonathan, your notes are great, but thanks for helping to inspire. You are a professional.

Tried of reading yet? I know I am.

Brett Bishop
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 20, 2006 05:58AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-20 05:20, B_Bishop wrote:

Tired of reading yet? I know I am.

Brett Bishop
[/quote]


Yes, Brett, so am I.

6 pages - for God's sake! It's only a ruddy tin of mints!


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: scorch (Jul 22, 2006 11:47PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-12 12:55, djrdjr wrote:
I believe I would have taken to it much more positively had the emphasis (both here and on the product's site) been on the special routines instead of the prop itself. The fact that the video just showed a common CTB routine put undue emphasis on the prop, instead of the routines, which I assume are really the product's selling point.

I think we could have skipped all of this had the product been marketed as a pamphlet of routines (which is what it seems to be) instead of a magic box.
[/quote]

Good point.

I'm sure also that it would have had a better reaction had he been more careful with the claims about the notion that "the card can be removed by the spectator." As anybody who performs close up knows, there is a world of difference between the effect as shown on the demo ending with the signed card being taken out of the box by the spectator (an effect that this product implicitly advertises yet clearly DOES NOT produce), and a completely different handling wherein a card that is not signed is removed from the box. In my opinion Mr. Kamm should not advertise the former on his website and on ebay, but in truth only offer the latter.

Making a demo of the standard effect, and then simply stating that the card can be removed by the spectator, when in fact the card cannot be removed by the spectator in the advertised context, is clearly misleading. Magicmania and others were acting to the world as if all of us were just plain stupid and ignorant for trying to clarify this important distinction, and only now are sheepishly admitting the limitation of the handling referred to. We were all told quite condescendingly to just stop doubting and send in the twenty bucks. OK, magicman, the truth wasn't so bad, was it? That's all we wanted to know. Again, nobody is/was asking for exposure here, just for an honest clarification of what is and is not being offered, and whether it fulfills its promises. And at least in this one important (to many of us) aspect, it apparently does not.

I'm sure there is much to value in Mr. Kamm's pamphlet; a little more frank and candid information up front would have gone a long way to keeping the attention on its attributes rather than on the misleading claims.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 23, 2006 03:03AM)
Scorch,
Wether or not the advertising is misleading can be argued either way. If I buy a trick that says "pull coins out of thin air" have I been mislead? If I buy some aftershave because the guy in the comercial was surrounded by hot women. Is that misleading. Magic itself is misleading. If you are selling a magic item you are selling something that was created to mislead people. Every magic ad I know is misleading. Every Kaps style card to box effect is sold as "signed card is found in box!" In reality no its not! "Hey ! they are misleading me."
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is rediculous.

If I have a question about a product I have always had good luck with simply contacting the creator. That's how you find out if someone can be trusted or is out to scam you. I was more then honest with people who asked me wether the card removed by the spectator was signed or not. To sit and make assumptions doesn't get you anywhere.
Message: Posted by: Paul Wingham (Jul 23, 2006 03:51AM)
Kammagic: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we as magicians often worry to much about what we see happen and forget that the only important thing is what the spectator percieves to have happened.

I do card on ceiling at least 20 times a week and the number of people that later come up to me and ask how the card just appeared on the ceiling (it didn't I threw it up there)but the important thing is the spec blocks out the finer points and just remembers the end result.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 23, 2006 04:15AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 04:51, Paul Wingham wrote:
Kammagic: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we as magicians often worry to much about what we see happen and forget that the only important thing is what the spectator percieves to have happened.

I do card on ceiling at least 20 times a week and the number of people that later come up to me and ask how the card just appeared on the ceiling (it didn't I threw it up there)but the important thing is the spec blocks out the finer points and just remembers the end result.

[/quote]

Yes, in the ToiBox routine when they remove the card themselves they remember it as their signed card. I don't let them keep the unsigned card only the signed one that I removed so that's all they have to remember the effect.

I think what happens is if you experience something in person that is amazing it is very hard to describe it to someone so that they experience the same amazement. So we embelish the story to make it stronger for the people we are telling it to. Usually the truth and embelishment become blurred and we forget actually what really happened.
Message: Posted by: scorch (Jul 23, 2006 04:55PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 04:03, kammagic wrote:
Whether or not the advertising is misleading can be argued either way. If I buy a trick that says "pull coins out of thin air" have I been mislead? If I buy some aftershave because the guy in the commercial was surrounded by hot women. Is that misleading. Magic itself is misleading. If you are selling a magic item you are selling something that was created to mislead people. Every magic ad I know is misleading. Every Kaps style card to box effect is sold as "signed card is found in box!" In reality no its not! "Hey ! they are misleading me."
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is ridiculous.
[/quote]
It is usually fairly easy to tell the difference between a vaguely described effect (such as you mentioned about pulling coins out of thin air) and a specifically false claim about a specific aspect such as in your ads. Sure the argument can be made both ways. But which side are you going to err on? The side of maintaining honesty and integrity, or selling a few dozen more units?

[quote]If I have a question about a product I have always had good luck with simply contacting the creator. That's how you find out if someone can be trusted or is out to scam you. I was more then honest with people who asked me wether the card removed by the spectator was signed or not.
[/quote]

Um, actually, you were pretty silent on the matter. Several people in fact did ask very specifically in the earlier thread, and you stonewalled the questions. How were we supposed to know that we couldn't just ask you on the thread (which after all, you started), and that we would need to pm you personally in order to find out the truth? There was quite a controversy, because a lot of people wanted to know if your effect indeed represented a major advance in the effect. The matter wasn't cleared up until this review thread came along, and it wasn't by you. I am not one to assume that I am being scammed, but when I ask a question (along with several others), and no information is forthcoming, it does indeed start to smell more like a snow job.

I mean, come on. If I came out with a pamphlet on impromptu street levitations, and promised in my advertisement that it was angle-proof when the demo showed nothing more than the well-known Balducci, you don't think there would be a lot of questions about such a claim? And then when I failed to respond to any questions about it, don't you think it would rub some people the wrong way?


[quote]
On 2006-07-23 04:51, Paul Wingham wrote:
I do card on ceiling at least 20 times a week and the number of people that later come up to me and ask how the card just appeared on the ceiling (it didn't I threw it up there)but the important thing is the spec blocks out the finer points and just remembers the end result.
[/quote]
True, but then again, just because in the best of all possible scenarios, an audience member will remember it as the card magically appearing without your having thrown it up there, you don't go promising your customers that they don't even throw the cards up at the ceiling. Because that would be a lie, wouldn't it? Mr. Kam's advertisement, the way it was contextualized, goes over the line and promises something that it can't deliver, pure and simple. If you're going to market something to working magicians and not kids coming into a novelty store, you'd better darn well be more careful about such distinctions. Just because "it's magic" doesn't justify false advertisement.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Jul 23, 2006 05:10PM)
Scorch, I am not a liar. Get your facts straight.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 23, 2006 07:12PM)
Toi box all I will say is this the handling is excellent and I love non gimmicked effects , but I can not compare toi box to any other CTB because I have never did CTB .I do card to mouth,to watch and even paperclipped ,but never card to box,.
I have supported Jonathasn and will give his effect the practice it deserves because it is excellent for walk around. I only hope he returns the favor and supports my liquid band .For 6 bucks it is the best band effect of the year in my opinion checkout vinnynmarini.com. also even if you do not to perform band effects remember one hand washes the other...
vinny
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 23, 2006 08:29PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 04:51, Paul Wingham wrote:
Kammagic: I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we as magicians often worry to much about what we see happen and forget that the only important thing is what the spectator percieves to have happened.
[/quote]


Hi Paul,

You are right in that what is important is how the audience perceive what you have done. (I have read several reports about Marc Salme's latest show and even journalist describe something totally different to what actualkly happened.) However, it is important in the performance. If you were told you could buy a trick for 15 dollars where a card is signed, genuinely lost on the deck and the card instantly appears on the ceiling, you would probably want to buy it. Imagine how you would feel when you get it and find you have to throw the cards up to the ceiling but the *impression* is that you don't. You may well ask how people forget you throw the cards up. So much of what we do is psychological. However it is up to each individaul performer to inject that psychology themselves. No amount of description will help if you cannot put it into practise.

What happens when someone asks to see the trick where the card simply appears on the ceiling???

Nobody expects the methods to tricks to be given away in the desciption but then neither do people expect to read a description that may or may not be what som epeople in your audience believes happened.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 23, 2006 09:08PM)
Scorch,

It's respectful to PM someone or Email them privately if you have a question about their product that may give away or expose their effect. A forum thread is not the place to discuss that. If we met in a room full of people and I had a question about some effect you do I would take you aside and speak to you privately. I wouldn't broadcast to the whole room. Which is what you would be doing in a forum.

, Jonathan


[quote]
On 2006-07-23 20:12, vinsmagic wrote:
Toi box all I will say is this the handling is excellent and I love non gimmicked effects , but I can not compare toi box to any other CTB because I have never did CTB. I do card to mouth, to watch, and even Paperclipped, but never card to box,.
I have supported Jonathan and will give his effect the practice it deserves because it is excellent for walk around. I only hope he returns the favor and supports my liquid band .For 6 bucks it is the best band effect of the year in my opinion checkout vinnynmarini.com. also even if you do not to perform band effects remember one hand washes the other...
vinny
[/quote]
Thanks Vinny I always wanted to learn that! Your download service was quick and easy. We may need to talk. I have been wanting to set up some downloads myself.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jul 23, 2006 10:44PM)
I think the brilliant Tony Miller's "Anything Wallet" solves all these problems:
http://www.rfaproductions.com/products/anythingwallet.htm

I've been using this for sometime and it has never failed me: They NEVER ask to see the wallet!

Chris
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (Jul 24, 2006 12:29AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 22:36, kammagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 20:12, vinsmagic wrote:
Toi box all I will say is this the handling is excellent and I love non gimmicked effects , but I can not compare toi box to any other CTB because I have never did CTB .I do card to mouth,to watch and even paperclipped ,but never card to box,.
I have supported Jonathasn and will give his effect the practice it deserves because it is excellent for walk around. I only hope he returns the favor and supports my liquid band .For 6 bucks it is the best band effect of the year in my opinion checkout vinnynmarini.com. also even if you do not to perform band effects remember one hand washes the other...
vinny
[/quote]

Thanks Vinny I aways wanted to learn that! Your download service was quick and easy. We may need to talk. I have been wanting to set up some downloads myself.

, Jonathan
[/quote]

I'm sure both your products are fine, but this idea that people pushing their stuff on the Café should automatically support one-another (and let's face it, the phrase "one hand washes the other" isn't asking for an unbiased review) is what a lot of people hate about the Café.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 24, 2006 01:29AM)
First of all I know Jonathans card work and I bought his product even though I am not familar with ctb...I support him period......
If his effect was bad or I did not like it I certainly would make this known. I am sure jonathan would want an honest opinion from me ...jonathan is a friend and I would expect the same support from him I was not speaking to anyone else just johathan...
vinny
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 24, 2006 05:07AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 23:44, MagicChris wrote:
I think the brilliant Tony Miller's "Anything Wallet" solves all these problems:
http://www.rfaproductions.com/products/anythingwallet.htm

I've been using this for sometime and it has never failed me: They NEVER ask to see the wallet!

Chris
[/quote]

...That's good to know - I just won a brand new one for £6 on eBay last night!


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jul 24, 2006 06:58AM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-24 06:07, Dr. Zordas wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 23:44, MagicChris wrote:
I think the brilliant Tony Miller's "Anything Wallet" solves all these problems:
http://www.rfaproductions.com/products/anythingwallet.htm

I've been using this for sometime and it has never failed me: They NEVER ask to see the wallet!

Chris
[/quote]

...That's good to know - I just won a brand new one for £6 on eBay last night!


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
[/quote]

Dr. Zordas, I hope you like it. There's a discussion board called mentalist sanctum and it has an area dedicated to this effect ( lotsa great mentalist applications).

Chris
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 24, 2006 11:28AM)
...Thanks Chris! I'll check it out!


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 24, 2006 01:21PM)
Sounds like a cool product. But I thought this is a thread for ToiBox reviews and comments.

Thank you, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 24, 2006 02:11PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-24 14:21, kammagic wrote:
Sounds like a cool product. But I thought this is a thread for ToiBox reviews and comments.

Thank you, Jonathan
[/quote]


Yes, you're quite right. Which is the best - ToiBox or Destination Box? Looking forward to reading another 7 pages...


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 24, 2006 02:53PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-24 15:11, Dr. Zordas wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-24 14:21, kammagic wrote:
Sounds like a cool product. But I thought this is a thread for ToiBox reviews and comments.

Thank you, Jonathan
[/quote]


Which is the best - ToiBox or Destination Box? Looking forward to reading another 7 pages...


[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
[/quote]

Please don't provoke them. :)
Message: Posted by: djrdjr (Jul 24, 2006 06:42PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 04:03, kammagic wrote:
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is rediculous.
[/quote]
Well, I'm sorry, but that is just insulting.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 24, 2006 09:02PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-24 19:42, djrdjr wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-07-23 04:03, kammagic wrote:
To complain about misleading information in a magic ad is rediculous.
[/quote]
Well, I'm sorry, but that is just insulting.
[/quote]

Dale,

It wasn't meant to be. But since I arrived here I know how you feel.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: ScottyJohnston (Jul 25, 2006 02:48PM)
Today I received my copy of Toibox and I was'nt let down. I was very impressed with the whole package. The manuscript is well written and thourghly explained with pictures to aid. The effects are all well structured and having recently performed some of them for my peers I can say I got a great reaction. I would recommend this as a great addition to any working mans repitoire.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jul 29, 2006 05:07AM)
Well I would like to thank everyone that has purchased ToiBox so far. The first printing sold out. I had the second edition printed today it officially includes the handling for handing out the box for examination directly after their card is removed. I also added another routine idea in the closing. Several of you have started sending me your own ideas and routines for ToiBox. I will keep them all on file and maybe write a second book of just routines. I will credit everyone for their submissions.

Thanks again, Jonathan


Posted: Jul 30, 2006 2:18pm
--------------------------------
New ToiBox Video Demo available!

Refresh page if old video still appears. You can get there through the website in my profile.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Dr. Zordas (Jul 30, 2006 03:15PM)
[quote]
On 2006-07-30 14:18, kammagic wrote:
New ToiBox Video Demo available!

Refresh page if old video still appears. You can get there through the website in my profile.

, Jonathan
[/quote]


Jonathan - much better [url=http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/ToiBox/Movie.html][b]ToiBox[/b][/url] demo! :) In fact, my order will be on it's way as long as I can have a [b][i]silver mints tin...[/b][/i]

[b]Dr. Zordas[/b]
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 7, 2006 01:05PM)
ToiBox has been updated with a new 6th routine!

Effect:
Spectator selects and signs a card. The card is lost in the deck. You show the mint tin empty and give it to the spectator to hold. You then make the signed selection vanish from the deck and appear inside the tin the spectator is holding. The spectator opens the tin, removes and unfolds the card to find it is the signed selection!

All purchasers of ToiBox have been sent a PDF of this new routine if anyone has not received it please let me know. Any new purchases of Toibox will include this new routine bound in the book. The ToiBox site has been updated as well.

Thank You, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (Aug 7, 2006 03:03PM)
I love that demo. Really nice trick. The new routine sounds great as well.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Aug 13, 2006 09:02AM)
Just read the new effect Jonathan. It's a great idea! It just could be the best effect in the booklet.





Luke
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Aug 13, 2006 09:30AM)
It is the best effect..........
and there are no gimmicks. I have played with jons new idea and I even inporoved on this for my self ....Jonathan pm me for details , your effect is a transpositon mine isn't
vinny
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 14, 2006 03:06AM)
Thanks guys I am glad you are enjoying the new routine. The new routine that allows the spectator to remove their signed card is an almost perfect routine. I have been using it for the last 3 weeks at work at the restaurant. It truly seems impossible to the spectator. I'll be at the Midwest Magic Jubilee this week with plenty for sale. Hope to see some of you there.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: shawn popp (Aug 14, 2006 01:26PM)
I noticed Mr Tivoli responding on this board. No one has mentioned his version of CTB... All I can say is "outstanding!!!" My favorite version yet! (although I love the DB too) The card is signed. The spectator removes the card. period.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 14, 2006 02:14PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-14 14:26, Shawn Griffin wrote:
I noticed Mr Tivoli responding on this board. No one has mentioned his version of CTB... All I can say is "outstanding!!!" My favorite version yet! (although I love the DB too) The card is signed. The spectator removes the card. period.


[/quote]

I have talked to Mr Tivoli and his box does sound great. It does work differently then ToiBox. As for the card being signed and the spectator removing their signed card from the box. This can all be done with ToiBox and is included in the new Second Edition of the book. All the people who bought the first edition were sent a pdf to update their book. Everyone loves this new routine. It starts with an empty box, a specator signs a card, its lost in the deck. You show the box empty and give it to the spectator. While they hold the box you get their signed card inside. You never come near the box. They open the box and find their signed card inside. Everything can be examined! It has become my favorite way to do ToiBox.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: meyegr (Aug 16, 2006 10:34AM)
I was just at Walgreens and saw their mint tins. They have (3) colors, red, green and silver. Hmmmmmm...
Message: Posted by: meyegr (Aug 17, 2006 01:17PM)
I have been trying to find what the Destination Box looks like. Have tried Jon's site and there is a magic question that I do not have the answer. I do not know how many cards are used for Proffesor's Nightmare (I thought this was a rope trick).

If someone can direct me to a place where I can see a pic (and description) I would appreciate (I have done some seaarches and keep coming to Jon's site or places with no picture).

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 17, 2006 02:18PM)
Hi Meyegr,

You are no the first person to fall foul of the password question. You are right when you say Professor's Nightmare is a rope trick. As that's the case, how many cards does it use........? :)

If you want to go directly to the dedicated page, it is at http://www.close-upmagician.com/destinationbox

Any problems, please feel free to drop me a PM.

Jon
Message: Posted by: meyegr (Aug 17, 2006 04:42PM)
Duh - you got me. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Aug 18, 2006 03:44AM)
Dear Shawn Griffin
Thanfs for your kind words.
I saw Jonathan, your new demo and I can tell you that with my simplex card to box, I can do exactly the same routine. My box can be used also with other props than cards...you can use it as a mentalism prop, well I can say as your box jonathan, that the simplex card to box is a very versatil prop.
Regards folks
arthur
Message: Posted by: silverzer0 (Aug 20, 2006 06:51PM)
Does anyone know how this effect differs from "Astonish Mints"?

http://www.mjmmagic.com/store/astonish-mints-by-ingram-p-2992.html
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Aug 20, 2006 08:07PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-20 19:51, silverzer0 wrote:
Does anyone know how this effect differs from "Astonish Mints"?

http://www.mjmmagic.com/store/astonish-mints-by-ingram-p-2992.html
[/quote]



Here is a comparison chart Jonathan put up on his site. http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/ToiBox/Chart.html
Message: Posted by: silverzer0 (Aug 20, 2006 08:16PM)
Great, thanks! :)

(although a bit skewed of course..)
Message: Posted by: Review King (Aug 20, 2006 08:31PM)
Jonathan, I don't agree with your chart:
http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/ToiBox/Chart.html

You say the Mystery Box doesn't have an instant reset or can't be set up in front of the spectator or can't be examined at the end. That's not what I've found. A tap to the box and you're ready. Use Larry Davidson's idea from his Scripted Insanity DVD ( Bobkohlermagic.com ) and it's not even noticed. The gaff is so well made, they can see the box after the effect.

I think your chart is slanted heavily in favor of your own product. Just my opinion, but I use the Mystery Box and can do what you claim can't be done.

Best,
Chris
Message: Posted by: silverzer0 (Aug 20, 2006 09:08PM)
Well, I mean, the fact that his chart is comparing his product to Kennedy's Mystery Box is funny in itself ;)
Message: Posted by: Review King (Aug 20, 2006 10:01PM)
It's a card to box. Ring box, mint box, it's a box, so it's OK to compare. But to compare it unfairly is wrong. I'm not judging the effect. Our friend The Godfather ( Vinny ) has a BRILLIANT application for Jon's effect.

I hope my comments were taken in the spirit I intended them.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 21, 2006 08:06AM)
That chart will open up a hole tin (or box) of worms!

Ungimmicked doesn't matter; how you handle a prop is more important.

The KMB can be reset instantly.

The KMB can be set up in front of the audience.Being a common item and rasing suspicion are two different things.

How can the KMB and AM not be easy to carry on you????? What constitues difficult? Even TDB is easy to carry on me and that's bigger than all those listed boxes put together.

Why do performers want to have things examined all the time? So what if KMB, AM and TWB can't be examined before the effect? It's obvious the signed card isn't in there at the beginning. All you are doing is bringing even more undue attention to the box.

It's a shame TDB wasn't in the comparison chart as well :-(

Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 21, 2006 06:06PM)
Jon,

I agree that to the spectator the fact that the trick is gimmicked doesn't matter. I am selling this to magicians and it does matter to a magician wether a trick is gimmicked or not. TDB works differently so it is not compared to ToiBox on this chart. All the boxes on the chart are similar shuttle pass style effects. The chart shows you the benifits that ToiBox has over other type of effects. I just debuted ToiBox at the Midwest Magic Jubillee and everyone loved the idea. I am still on vacation and will tell you more when I get home later this week.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Review King (Aug 21, 2006 06:35PM)
Jon, how come you didn't address the issues I raised?

Chris
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 21, 2006 06:44PM)
Hi Chris,

I *think* you are talking to Jonathan. Seeing how he is Jonathan and I am Jon, would you mind differentiating between us? I looked back to see if I missed anything you may have asked me but I'm sure you were referring to Jonathan.

Cheers,
Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 21, 2006 11:51PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-20 21:31, MagicChris wrote:
Jonathan, I don't agree with your chart:
http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/ToiBox/Chart.html

You say the Mystery Box doesn't have an instant reset or can't be set up in front of the spectator or can't be examined at the end. That's not what I've found. A tap to the box and you're ready. Use Larry Davidson's idea from his Scripted Insanity DVD ( Bobkohlermagic.com ) and it's not even noticed. The gaff is so well made, they can see the box after the effect.

I think your chart is slanted heavily in favor of your own product. Just my opinion, but I use the Mystery Box and can do what you claim can't be done.

Best,
Chris
[/quote]

Well I was unaware of the Larry Davidson idea. I could change the chart if you like? But you will find that ToiBox resets automatically. When the routine is finished ToiBox is ready to go again. I have had many people tell me that spectators have found the gimmick on their KMB. ToiBox has nothing to find. The spectator can keep the box. Why not remove the chance all together of the spectator finding anything and do the routine ungimmicked like ToiBox does. Maybe the question that should be asked is what makes the gimmicked versions better then ToiBox? After showing ToiBox at the convention this week. Apart from the cleverness of the routines the biggest praise come from the fact that it was ungimmicked. No box on the market is as inexpensive, packs as small, performs as clean and has the versatility of ToiBox.

To give you an idea. You can fit 2 ToiBox tins comfortably inside a poker size card box. Now that's small!

Thanks guys, I'll be home in about 4 days and will have more info about the convention.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Review King (Aug 22, 2006 08:06AM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-21 19:44, Jon Allen wrote:
Hi Chris,

I *think* you are talking to Jonathan. Seeing how he is Jonathan and I am Jon, would you mind differentiating between us? I looked back to see if I missed anything you may have asked me but I'm sure you were referring to Jonathan.

Cheers,
Jon


[/quote]

Hi Jon, I was talking to Jonathan. Sorry about that.

Jonathan, your chart is wrong. Don't change it for me, change it because it's the right thing to do.

Best,
Chris
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 22, 2006 03:18PM)
Hi Jonathan,

Firstly, the chart is a very good idea. Not too many people would want to compare their product to others that do the same effect. You should be congratulated on producing the chart. There are some *major* errors on the chart though. It is extremely misleading and does not compare the boxes fairly. You should not have it on your site until you have corrected the errors. I mentioned some of the errors in a previous post.

You have said that all the boxes are a Shuttle Pass type effect but one claim for Toibox is that the “spectator can remove their own signed card. This seems to say that no shuttle pass is involved. If this is the case, why are the Simplex Card to Box and TDB not included? Some people may like the effect of a Card to Box but want to see variations of method. The big omission is Arthur’s Simplex Card to Box. It is a similar style of box and people on here have mentioned it before. You actually said in your last post, “No box on the market is as inexpensive, packs as small, performs as clean and has the versatility of ToiBox.” This is not true. Arthur’s box actually matches Toibox in every category in the chart and is a little cheaper. Any chart matching similar props should include it. Will you include it in the chart?

Regards,
Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 22, 2006 06:00PM)
Gentleman,

TDB is very different then any of these boxes and does not belong on this chart. The Simplex box works on a different principal then the shuttle pass so I didn't include it on the chart. All the boxes on this chart use a shuttle pass. The chart is designed to show the benifits ToiBox has over other similar shuttle pass Kaps style Card To Box effects. It is not a chart designed as a buyers guide to all Card To Box effects because there are many more. I stuck with the ones that are most similar to ToiBox. I am not home right now so I can't change the chart. But I will update the KMB items that were suggested. I'll let you know when it has been updated and you guys can tell me all the mistakes I make then if it pleases you.

Thanks for the input, Jonathan K.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 22, 2006 06:37PM)
Okay, one question:

When someone removes their signed card from the Toibox box, which is a major effect as highlighted on the website, does it involve a shuttle pass?

Regards,
Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 22, 2006 07:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-22 19:37, Jon Allen wrote:
Okay, one question:

When someone removes their signed card from the Toibox box, which is a major effect as highlighted on the website, does it involve a shuttle pass?

Regards,
Jon
[/quote]

Yes, very cleverly it does. :)
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 23, 2006 04:48AM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-22 20:35, kammagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-08-22 19:37, Jon Allen wrote:
Okay, one question:

When someone removes their signed card from the Toibox box, which is a major effect as highlighted on the website, does it involve a shuttle pass?

Regards,
Jon
[/quote]

Yes, very cleverly it does. :)
[/quote]

So does TDB :) I guess they are comparable after all when it comes to 'signed card to box'.

Anyway, it's obviously up to you as to which boxes you compare Toibox to but you do need to compare them honestly.
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Aug 23, 2006 04:57AM)
Hi Jon

Thanks for your kind words concerning the chart....I think you're right Jon, Jonathan must do some corections on it.
Cheers
arthur
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 23, 2006 09:39AM)
Authur,

Corrections will be made when I get home. I would love to know all the details of your effect so I can add it to the chart. Maybe we could trade. I will send you a copy of ToiBox for a copy of Simplex.

Jon Allen,

The same offer goes out to you. I understand that yours is more expensive so I will gladly return it after checking out all the details. I think this will help clear up any assumptions we are making about each others product.

, Jonathan

PS: as I said before I am not home right now but will be in 2 days and could ship it out then.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Aug 25, 2006 09:44AM)
Jonathan Kamm, you've created a chart comparing other effects to your own creation. That chart is biased in your favor. And...the chart is wrong.

Will you stop selling the effect until the chart is updated to be accurate? No.

I could not endorse a product or inventor that conducts themselves in such a misleading way.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 25, 2006 10:28AM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-25 10:44, MagicChris wrote:
Jonathan Kamm, you've created a chart comparing other effects to your own creation. That chart is biased in your favor. And...the chart is wrong.

Will you stop selling the effect until the chart is updated to be accurate? No.

I could not endorse a product or inventor that conducts themselves in such a misleading way.
[/quote]

Chris,
The chart has been updated. If you see any inaccuracies please let me know. If the old chart still appears make sure you hit "refresh".
Remember the chart is not a "buyers guide" it is used to show the benefits that ToiBox has over similar products. Nothing misleading about it. Every statement is true. Its a common promotional tool used in advertising. It always highlights the product you are selling and not the other way around.

, Jonathan K.
Message: Posted by: meyegr (Aug 25, 2006 11:16AM)
Just a positivenote. I recieved this a couple weeks ago and I think it is great (chart or not).
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 25, 2006 11:53AM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-25 12:16, meyegr wrote:
Just a positivenote. I recieved this a couple weeks ago and I think it is great (chart or not).
[/quote]

Thanks,

I think it's great too. Don't worry about the people who feel the need to attack it. It comes with the territory.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 25, 2006 03:04PM)
Nobody has been attacking the box itself; rather the way it is built up and promoted as something absolutely awesome. Jonathan is perfectly entitled to produce a chart to highlight several other similar products. There were errors and inaccuracies in it as pointed out by a couple of people. Jonathan said he would correct them. However, rather than changing a NO to YES when an error was pointed out (for example, that the KMB can be reset in front of people and can be shown empty or that Astonish Mints is also a regular looking tin) the *categories* either changed or, worse, were dropped altogether.

The categories were fine while Toibox ruled supreme in them but as soon as any of the others invoked a YES, the category was changed or scrapped, except a couple for Tommy Wonder's Box. By all means, show your product has some advantages in construction, method, or appearance but don't change the wording of the category simply to suit your cause. It really is okay to say that others can be reset in front of people or that another box can be shown empty; they may not have other benefits. As an example, to change a category from “Shown empty” to “Shown truly empty” just so other boxes are perceived as inferior is pretty weak. As I said in my PM, the KMB *is* truly empty as well. Just how much examination of a prop are you going for??? There was a category of being able to be set up in front of the audience. When it was pointed out that each box listed can be set up in front of people, that particular attribute was dropped.

Claims are made that “No box on the market is as inexpensive, packs as small, performs as clean and has the versatility of ToiBox.” This is not true as Arthur’s box matches it. You said, “Every statement is true.” KMB *can* be repeated with no reset. It can also be handed out for examination before and afterwards.

I have no qualms with Toibox itself; nobody is attacking the prop as you will see from all the previous posts. It’s a tin with some routines. What is wrong is the total disregard, respect and false advertising that has been shown towards other boxes and the unwillingness to address certain issues raised by people.

I’d go with Arthur’s Simplex Card to Box for that price range. Here’s a quick comparison: pretty much everything is exactly the same except the look, material of the box and the price.

Jon
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 25, 2006 04:05PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-25 16:04, Jon Allen wrote:
Nobody has been attacking the box itself; rather the way it is built up and promoted as something absolutely awesome. Jonathan is perfectly entitled to produce a chart to highlight several other similar products. There were errors and inaccuracies in it as pointed out by a couple of people. Jonathan said he would correct them. However, rather than changing a NO to YES when an error was pointed out (for example, that the KMB can be reset in front of people and can be shown empty or that Astonish Mints is also a regular looking tin) the *categories* either changed or, worse, were dropped altogether.

The categories were fine while Toibox ruled supreme in them but as soon as any of the others invoked a YES, the category was changed or scrapped, except a couple for Tommy Wonder's Box. By all means, show your product has some advantages in construction, method, or appearance but don't change the wording of the category simply to suit your cause. It really is okay to say that others can be reset in front of people or that another box can be shown empty; they may not have other benefits. As an example, to change a category from “Shown empty” to “Shown truly empty” just so other boxes are perceived as inferior is pretty weak. As I said in my PM, the KMB *is* truly empty as well. Just how much examination of a prop are you going for??? There was a category of being able to be set up in front of the audience. When it was pointed out that each box listed can be set up in front of people, that particular attribute was dropped.

Claims are made that “No box on the market is as inexpensive, packs as small, performs as clean and has the versatility of ToiBox.” This is not true as Arthur’s box matches it. You said, “Every statement is true.” KMB *can* be repeated with no reset. It can also be handed out for examination before and afterwards.

I have no qualms with Toibox itself; nobody is attacking the prop as you will see from all the previous posts. It’s a tin with some routines. What is wrong is the total disregard, respect and false advertising that has been shown towards other boxes and the unwillingness to address certain issues raised by people.

I’d go with Arthur’s Simplex Card to Box for that price range. Here’s a quick comparison: pretty much everything is exactly the same except the look, material of the box and the price.

Jon

[/quote]

Jon this entire post is an attack on me and my effect. Why do you insist on doing this? The topics on the chart that I felt could be argued either way I simply eliminated. Like taking a doll away from 2 arguing children. that's all. Arthur doesn't attack me becuase he knows he has a good product that speaks for itself. You on the other hand feel threatened and instead of believing in your own product you have decided to belittle the competition. This has been blatantly obvious through out this entire thread. The more you attack it the more plublicity I get. So if you want to continue go right ahead. I believe in my product and my service to my customers. I do have an awesome product and the chart explains what benifits it has over other products which are many.

Jon, you have a wonderful product and as its creator you need to believe in it and not resort to this childish behavior of belittling the competition.

If you don't like my chart then you can always make your own.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Aug 25, 2006 05:07PM)
Seems to me that your calling the kettle black Jonathan. Doesn't your chart point out what you believe are problems with your product's competition?

There may be nothing wrong with Toi Box, but I think you keep trying to justify your product instead of letting it speak for itself. This post has now gone on for multiple pages with your justification of the product over its competition.

Furthermore, I think KMB, TDB, and other impossible location boxes have advantages over your product. For instance, TDB is locked and contains a box within a box. TDB requires no force in any of the routines. TDB is a professionally crafted product with collector appeal and beauty. TDB comes with video instructions. Perhaps those differences should be on your chart as well.

Frankly, Jon Allen's post has some very valid points.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 25, 2006 05:35PM)
You guys just won't let up will you. You can make it appear how ever you want. The chart is my chart and will stay the way it is. Nothing is misleading about it it is all true. I could remove the chart but you guys would find fault in that as well. If you don't like my effect then buy something else. End of story.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 25, 2006 07:21PM)
Hi Jonathan,

The two versions we have a totally different. As you said in your PM to me, it's like comparing a Lexus to a Civic. I wish you well with your product but the way you have dismissed other versions and people's comments on here seems a bit unwarranted. I have not attacked your actual product at all. For what it is, I am sure it is very good.

Of course you are going to back your product 100%. However, it is wrong to put out a chart for public viewing then change it when people point out that actually the other products do have a number of similarities. It shouldn't matter if other boxes have one or two similarities. If Toibox really does have actual benefits in both the prop, the performance and the routines, then people will buy it.

You started with a video that only showed the *effect* of Toibox rather than any actual performance and we end with you changing "empty" to "truly empty" simply because one (or is it two?) other versions actually can be shown as empty. If there is nothing in the box....it's an empty box. The other boxes could categorically be set up in front of the audience. No question about it. What happened? That category was dropped from the list. If you had absolute faith in your product, you would let it speak for itself, regardless of the competition.

And you think I’m threatened???

I really don’t mind if it gets publicity. If it’s a good product then great; if people are not happy with it then that is something for you to deal with. It won’t impact on my sales. It may get people started on the C2B theme and they can then decide how far they wish to go with it.

We have all said our piece so let's leave it at that.

Jon
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Aug 25, 2006 10:59PM)
:dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 26, 2006 12:17AM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-25 23:59, davidpaul$ wrote:
:dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
[/quote]

Excellent!
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Aug 26, 2006 12:19AM)
Man this thread is 8 pages .. I think it is time to put it to rest..
lets call it a technical draw.......
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Aug 26, 2006 07:14AM)
This was meant to be a review, not a warzone.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 29, 2006 03:03PM)
Some nice testimonials are coming in. I 've posted a couple special ones on my ToiBox Welcome page! Thanks guys!

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: TheAmazingSteveo (Aug 30, 2006 02:37AM)
I purchased ToiBox .. and I think the last method mentioned in the instructions of having their signed card in the box ... is [b]pure absolute genius!!![/b]

I [b]really[/b] like this effect!!!!

I recently developed a similar type of effect called "Card in a Coffin" .. but it uses animatronics to remotely move the lid on a small coffin where a card is displayed. It is a Card in a box type of effect .. but the animatronics gets [b]great great great[/b] reactions in walk around ... here's the thread on it (pm me if you want a URL to the video):

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=175998&forum=109&1
Message: Posted by: cardfreakhk (Aug 30, 2006 03:48AM)
I saw this thread just now.
I met Jon, knowing that he is a nice guy, and he has been [b]only[/b] speaking the truth, can't we argue with points?

Toibox, after watching the demo, one thing just popped up in my mind, and I think most of them are exactly the same...which is "I can do this with any box!" So why should we buy it? KMB is much more better! No force! Signed card! You can show the box empty after the effect! Instantly Reset! If you want your audience to check your box like policemen, then Toibox could be said fit the bill, because it is barely a box.

Most of the ads today are just misleading too much, be careful to the ads.
Message: Posted by: gilbreath76 (Aug 30, 2006 04:47AM)
After reading this whole thread, my problem is with the advertisement of the product. With Toibox you can do this, with Toibox you can do that, Toibox resets instantly, etc. There's even a chart that compares it to gimmicked boxes. As a magic consumer reading the ad, I'm lead to believe I'm getting a special box. Kammagic does disclose that it's ungimmicked which makes it strange why it would compare it to the likes of the Mystery Box. It should be advertise as a "Manuscript of Card to Box" routines with specific instructions to get your mint boxes from your local store.

Card to box routines and ideas have been around forever using ungimmicked boxes, shoes, etc. The way I see it, items like the Destination Box and the Mystery Box are creations that pays homage to this theme,to provide the spectators with a visual that no ungimmick box can. There is a chart on the toibox website that compares toibox to the gimmicked boxes on the market. This is like comparing apples to oranges and is the most ridiculous thing about the website because there is no comparison. You can use that chart and just replace the word toibox with any small ungimmick box you can find. You can even replace it with the word SHOE. Card can be shown falling out of Shoe. Shoe is truly empty after card is removed, Shoe can be given as souvenir (unless it's my brandnew Lebrons), Shoe can be repeated instantly. Easy to carry because I wear it on my foot. It's like making a chart comparing trick coins to the real quarter that's in your pocket and listing all the advantages of using pure sleight of hand with an ungimmicked quarter called the Toi-Quarter. Why would you do that? These are two separate markets.

I'm sure the routines in Toibox are great. I just have a problem with the advertising.
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Aug 30, 2006 06:43AM)
I follow you
I love the shoe story, where can I buy it....is there a chart where I can compare my shoe to yours? :)
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 30, 2006 06:56AM)
I guess you wouldn't want to be the person with the smallest shoe!!! ;-)

It should be pointed out that your trick called 'Shoe' is purely a rip off of a trick called 'Glove'.
Message: Posted by: Tivoli (Aug 30, 2006 10:23AM)
But Jon it will depend on the advertising he will do for his shoe trick, so let's say for instance that we don't know if it's a rip off...:)
I had an other idea what about a signed card in the shoe box?
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Aug 30, 2006 11:04AM)
Or maybe a card in signed shoe box.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Aug 30, 2006 11:54AM)
Can we let this thread sink down the list now?
Message: Posted by: Jeff J. (Aug 30, 2006 12:14PM)
No. Not until Jon adds SHOE to his comparison chart :)
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Aug 30, 2006 12:40PM)
The chart was a big hit at the convention and everyone thought "Now that's a great idea!"
All the negative comments about the chart and about ToiBox in general all come from people who have not bought it or have boxes of their own on the market so their comments are certainly motivated by other factors. I know my product is great and in my opinion the best way to do card to box. I also understand that you can't please everyone. As the new kid on the block I understand that you are going to be challenged and people are going to want to knock you down and say your product or advertising or marketing techniques are inferior. But hey that comes with the territory. So far ToiBox is still standing strong. I have gotten many many compliments on it and many great stories of how people are now using it and prefer it over other similar effects. Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Many of you love the versions you have and that is wonderful.
There was a time in my magic career that I loved all the shiny secret gimmicky items on the market. But when I got out and started doing this for a living I found out that you just want what gets the job done in the most efficient manner possible. ToiBox certainly fits the bill. The only preparation is having a tiny tiny mint tin in your pocket and your ready to go with a jaw dropping effect at any time. Believe me I have put some great effects in the drawer because they didn't fit the bill and I am not above putting away ToiBox if something out there was better. I just haven't found anything yet that is.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: silverking (Aug 30, 2006 03:05PM)
It's probably time to take out an ad here on the Café if you want to keep talking about an effect that you're marketing.

We're all pretty clear now on what it does and doesn't do, and where everybody stands.
Message: Posted by: Scott Wells (Sep 21, 2006 04:17PM)
Personally, I love the effect. The instructions are very clear with great photos (better than most lecture notes I have purchased at the same price). As for the trick, yeah, it's a shuttle pass, but there are some subtle tips that are in there plus a couple of variations that kill.

I have been regularly using ToiBox and its variations at my restaurant. I am surprised by the reaction that it receives. It always seems the simplest of tricks are the ones that are remembered. I don’t know who is having more fun with it…my audience or me!

And I think we should reward those who publish a good effect by buying the book/notes.

yours,
Scott
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Sep 21, 2006 04:35PM)
I just noticed this string is still going....took a look at that "comparison chart".
[quote]
All the negative comments about the chart and about ToiBox in general all come from people who have not bought it or have boxes of their own on the market so their comments are certainly motivated by other factors. [/quote]

Was this put together by your research jonathan? If so, it may seem to some that it is a bit biased? From what I have read above...I think it does. IMO :) Motivation for my comments come from understanding both sides of this discussion. Nothing negative, just an unbiased observation.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Sep 21, 2006 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-21 17:17, Scott Wells wrote:
Personally, I love the effect. The instructions are very clear with great photos (better than most lecture notes I have purchased at the same price). As for the trick, yeah, it's a shuttle pass, but there are some subtle tips that are in there plus a couple of variations that kill.

I have been regularly using ToiBox and its variations at my restaurant. I am surprised by the reaction that it receives. It always seems the simplest of tricks are the ones that are remembered. I don’t know who is having more fun with it…my audience or me!

And I think we should reward those who publish a good effect by buying the book/notes.

yours,
Scott
[/quote]

Thanks Scott!

Its nice to hear comments from someone who is actually using ToiBox. It is great fun to perform and gets amazing reactions as you have found out.

, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Sep 24, 2006 01:56PM)
Hey everyone I just posted a live version of ToiBox. Hard to get video footage in a dark bar but this turned out okay.
http://web.mac.com/jonathankamm/iWeb/SecretPage/Main2/Main2.html


Posted: Oct 1, 2006 6:10pm
----------------------------
Now available on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XsZ7hQfU10

[b]News:[/b]
I have a new routine that puts ToiBox within the abilities of even a newcomer to magic. No Mercury Fold!
In fact its the way I prefer to do it lately. Simple direct and only 3 basic sleights with no sacrifice to the strength or appearance of the routine at all. Stay tuned....
Message: Posted by: mailcold (Oct 1, 2006 11:32PM)
Saw the demo on the youtube.
Did not find the handling any different from Tommy Wonder's ring box ending.
Could you please explain how is your handling any different ?
can the ToiBox be shown empty afterwards ? that would be an improvement.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Oct 2, 2006 12:05AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-02 00:32, mailcold wrote:
Saw the demo on the youtube.
Did not find the handling any different from Tommy Wonder's ring box ending.
Could you please explain how is your handling any different?
can the ToiBox be shown empty afterward? That would be an improvement.
[/quote]
This is only one of many routines you can do with ToiBox. Yes the box can be handed directly to the spectator after you remove their card and it is completely empty and fully examinable. You could let them keep the tin if you wanted to. It is a regular tin. ToiBox tins are smaller then the Tommy Wonder box and fit more comfortably in your pocket. Toibox routines are much easier to perform as well. The latest routine allows the spectator to remove their signed card themselves. Its a must for any restaurant or close-up performer.

Feel free to contact me with any questions.

, Jonathan


Hello,

The ToiBox book just got another update. It now includes the two new Master Routines fully illustrated with step by step photos. The Master Routine A allows the spectator to remove their signed card from the tin themselves. Master Routine B accomplishes the same routine but without having to do the Mercury Fold. It is a blast to perform. A real stress free routine which gives you more energy to put into presentation. I have used the routines extensively and the response is fantastic! I love the new version without the Mercury Fold. I use it all the time. Its so simple. The Master Routines are great for a repeat performance. If I do one of the regular routines and someone wants to see it again. I always do the Master Routine because it looks like the same trick but its accomplished in a different way which catches them completely off guard. Plus the Master Routines have a challenge type feel to them. You tell them exactly what is going to happen and what to look for and you still pull it off right under their noses.

PDFs have been sent out to all previous ToiBox buyers. If you have bought Toibox and didn't get the PDF let me know.


Thanks Everyone!
, Jonathan
Message: Posted by: erlandish (Nov 21, 2006 10:22PM)
A quick question: Has the chart been changed since the last time it was posted on magicvideodepot.com? After rereading this thread, I went back to give it another look... I remember there were some discrepancies with the Tommy Wonder Box that I thought got sorted out, but when I double-checked the chart just now, it looks like the TWB is listed as being "not easy to carry". I'm not sure if you've had a chance to check out the video, but while the TWB isn't necessarily as small as the Toibox -- having not seen yours live I have no exact basis for direct comparison -- the TWB is still small enough to fit into a jacket pocket.

Just curious. I may have seen the wrong version of this chart. If that category was always there and I neglected to mention it the last time, I apologize for missing it.
Message: Posted by: Lukenp (Nov 23, 2006 10:03PM)
Here you go......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tkNkswv6KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XsZ7hQfU10&mode=related&search=
Message: Posted by: erlandish (Nov 24, 2006 12:58AM)
Oh, I'm sure Kam's box is easy to carry. I just wanted to see if Tommy Wonder's Box was still being listed as NOT easy to carry, because that's not necessarily true.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Nov 29, 2006 06:19AM)
The point was that ToiBox is the easiest to carry of all the boxes. The wonder box is small but the ToiBox tin is half the size of the Wonder Box.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Nov 29, 2006 07:06AM)
Toi box has tons of applacations. it is great for walk around as well.
there are many versions of card to box . I happn to like the simplicity of jons handling,
you will not go wrong getting toi box
vinny
Message: Posted by: Memory-Jah (Dec 28, 2006 05:58PM)
Is it true that at the end the box which contains a folded card can be opened by the spexcttor? I can hardly imagine this. I was watching his live act of toibox at youtube.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jan 2, 2007 01:38AM)
Yes, absolutely! The card can be signed and at the end the spectator opens the tin and removes their own card. There are many ways to do ToiBox. There is a constant evolution of new moves, ideas and routines as well. Its such a simple little prop that it lends itself to many creative possibilities.

NEWS:
To all previous ToiBox Buyers I have 10 new moves to be put in the book as well as 6 new routines.
The moves include a super clean and simple to do tin switch, secret card loading and stealing techniques even a Tin flourish. The routines include dollar bills, dice, a great ACR ending and 3 new card routine ideas.

...stay tuned.
Message: Posted by: JasonDean (Jan 2, 2007 01:57AM)
Ok, after playing with this for quite some time now I am pleased to say this booklet is great! The routines are well constructed and I have a hard time picking out which one I want to perform. I love nearly all of them! Johnathan, this is great material.
Thank you for this,

Jason Dean
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 2, 2007 02:46AM)
Jon I never seen so much mileage from one effect .//
toi box has tons of applications
vinny
Message: Posted by: Turk (Jan 2, 2007 03:35AM)
Went into Victoria's Secrets over Christmas and discovered three small mint tins all different in color (one black, one pink and the other, I think, is silver). They are almost identical in size to the small box that Jonathan sends with the ToiBox manuscript. The length is identical and the width is [i]maybe[/i] 1/4"-3/8" wider.

The VS boxes are $2.75 each or 2 for $5.00. Each box is titled "Sexy little Mints" and each has a fake 1/4 carat diamond in the upper right hand corner of the lid. Kind of classy looking. I picked up a black box and a pink box. There's just GOT to be a way to work the "Sexy little Mints" wording on the box into a routine. And, like Jonathan was mentioning in a prior post (about two of his mint tins fitting into a poker size card box), well two of these VS mint tins will also just exactly fit inside of a poker size card box.

These boxes are a perfect replacement size if you damage or lose the box that Johanthan sends with the ToiBox manuscript.

Personally, I love the small size of the original box. I think it strengthens the card to box effect to be using a box this small--and the smallness is charming to boot and easy to carry.

Add to that the fact that the manuscript is very well laid out and well written AND the fact that Jonathan is constantly providing prior purchasers with updated handlings and ideas via .pdf files and I don't see how a person can go wrong with this purchase.

Does that mean that the Destination Box is a piece of sh** and should not be used? No, of course not. Is the Destination Box a great prop? Yes. Must this discussion about the ToiBox and the Destination Box be a "Mutually Exclusive Knock Down Drag-out Winer Take All" discussion? No!! Different strokes for different folks.

Just, IMHO.

Mike

P.S. Just a thought: For your "more affluent" women audience members, if the "right" situation presents itself, I can possibly see giving out an empty VS box (with the signed card inside) as a souvenir. (Just be careful and make it very clear that you are not "hitting" on the lady.) Additionally, perhaps fold up your business card and also include it in the box. Just seems like a natural for generating a larger tip and, for potential future private parties, keeping your business card from getting thrown away or lost. Naaah. It would never work.
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jan 2, 2007 08:03AM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-02 04:35, Turk wrote:
Went into Victoria's Secrets over Christmas and discovered three small mint tins all different in color (one black, one pink and the other, I think, is silver). They are almost identical in size to the small box that Jonathan sends with the ToiBox manuscript. The length is identical and the width is [i]maybe[/i] 1/4"-3/8" wider.

The VS boxes are $2.75 each or 2 for $5.00. Each box is titled "Sexy little Mints" and each has a fake 1/4 carat diamond in the upper right hand corner of the lid. Kind of classy looking. I picked up a black box and a pink box. There's just GOT to be a way to work the "Sexy little Mints" wording on the box into a routine. And, like Jonathan was mentioning in a prior post (about two of his mint tins fitting into a poker size card box), well two of these VS mint tins will also just exactly fit inside of a poker size card box.

These boxes are a perfect replacement size if you damage or lose the box that Johanthan sends with the ToiBox manuscript.

[/quote]

Wow! that's a great find. Thanks Turk. I immediately went searching for them and I found a pic below.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 2, 2007 09:46AM)
Wow I rushed over to get a few tins yesterday I had the store clerk pick a card the ace of spades she signed it
it was lost in the pack..
I opened the tin and a singned thong fell out another great effect for toi box lol
vinny
Message: Posted by: Turk (Jan 2, 2007 02:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-02 10:46, vinsmagic wrote:
Wow I rushed over to get a few tins yesterday I had the store clerk pick a card the ace of spades she signed it
it was lost in the pack..
I opened the tin and a singned thong fell out another great effect for toi box lol
vinny
[/quote]

Ha-ha! In your dreams, Vinny. Only in your dreams. (grin)

Actually that got me thinking about a routine. I'll PM Jonathan and if he approves and doesn't think that a public forum discussion would expose (sorry, no pun intneded) the Toi Box methodology, I'll post it on here on the Café.

Mike
Message: Posted by: kammagic (Jan 3, 2007 06:06PM)
Just picked me up some Vicky Mints. They are a great size. Not sure what I will do with them.
http://homepage.mac.com/jonathankamm/sexymints2.jpg
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 23, 2015 04:09PM)
After 8 years :)

Is there any video demo for this?

Thank you
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jul 5, 2015 11:46AM)
Ok no need anymore * got it :)

Thanks
Message: Posted by: kebmo3108 (Jul 2, 2020 03:52PM)
After so many years - Toibox is still awesome !!
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Jul 2, 2020 09:57PM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2020, kebmo3108 wrote:
After so many years - Toibox is still awesome !! [/quote]
And still will be in many more years.