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Topic: Pop knots
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Aug 15, 2006 03:48PM)
Is there a way of tieing (something like) a pop knot so that when you pull the long piece the small piece comes off, but without a knot in it? I want to move smoothly from a position where you appear to have two pieces of rope knotted together, into a position where you appear to have one long piece, i.e. the Fiber Optics starting position.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Aug 15, 2006 05:06PM)
You can use the GW Hunter knot for that.
I believe that is what it's called.

in this case, the knot disappears but no small piece is left at all.

it's just a false knot.

Daryl has a similar disolving knot on his rope routine video.
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Aug 15, 2006 05:21PM)
Thanks - I thought the Hunter knot was the one where you tie a knot while still holding both ends. But perhaps there are two.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 15, 2006 05:40PM)
The "pop knot" is the one you described. The "Hunter bow" knot is exactly as Frank described it. If you had Daryl's "expert rope magic" DVD set you would understand both knots. I've not been much help answering your question, but Daryl's Volume 1 DVD will make it crystal clear.
Al Angello
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Aug 15, 2006 06:14PM)
If you have a pop knot concealed on the rope by your hand and then tie the small rope around the long one and do a switch it will look like you tied the small rope onto the long one and popped it off. this would take excellent choreography however. I believe something close to this is on mac king's rope routine.
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Aug 15, 2006 08:05PM)
If you look at tape one of De Cova's Enigmatic, I mean DVD one, he has a routine that uses the hunter bow and also shows how to produce a pop off knot at the time of the knot vanish. Looks great. The original question was now to produce a pop off knot but w/out there being a knot, no, I just read it again, the answer is he doesn't want a pop off knot, he wants the hunter bow and there are others that would suite him as well.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Aug 15, 2006 08:26PM)
I'm a bit confused. Fulves has a whole chapter on the "Hunter knot" and its variants - he's talking about the overhand knot that you tie while apparently never letting go of the ends, but from what Steve V is saying it looks as if there is a "Hunter bow" which is something else, and what I need.

Steve is also right that I don't want a pop knot (I know what that is and how to do it) - but a knot that comes off leaving no knot, but simply a short piece of rope.

Is there a written source anywhere for the Hunter bow? I'd rather not buy another DVD for something which I suspect is quite simple.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 15, 2006 09:33PM)
The Karl Fulves book does not show the "Hunter Bow" knot. You can not tie the "hunter Bow knot" without letting go of the ends, another name for this knot is "the school boy knot". G W Hunter was English, and he lived long ago. Stewart James' Encyclopedia doesn't have it, and the Abbott Encyclopedia doesn't have it. They all have the Hunter "Puzzle knot", which is the one you tie without letting go (kinda) of the ends. You can buy Daryl's expert rope magic vol 1 DVD, or come over my house with a six pack of beer and I'll show it to you.

Wasn't your question about the pop knot?
Al Angello
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Aug 15, 2006 10:23PM)
He wants the action of a pop knot, meaning that a section of rope falls to the ground, but doesn't want the flow of his routine disrupted by having to untie the knot. That is how I'm reading it. Now in my opinion I would take the moment to untie the knot if only it makes sense. A pop off straight piece wouldn't make sense in most cases. I could see where perhaps cutting out the middle of the rope then making the longer pieces look like they fuse together thus leaving you with a short piece may make more sense.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Aug 16, 2006 04:35AM)
Al - thanks for your kind offer and your research. If I find myself on your side of the Atlantic I'll bring over the beers.

Steve, yes you have correctly worked out what I want. It's not important that the knot "pops" off very conspicously, it could equally slide off. I just want to be able to move the short piece easily from being a fake knot to being part of the longer rope, without a knot in it.

My overall aim is to move from from Tarbell's Hindu rope mystery into some Fiber Optics moves. Tarbell tells you to cut the fake knot off but I would rather turn it seamlessly into Sanders short piece. I could of course just untie the fake knot and do one of the Richard Sanders restorations, but I think it would be neater and more magical not to have to untie it.
Message: Posted by: John Long (Aug 16, 2006 12:00PM)
[quote]He wants the action of a pop knot, meaning that a section of rope falls to the ground, but doesn't want the flow of his routine disrupted by having to untie the knot. That is how I'm reading it[/quote]

that's how I understand the question. There are 2 ropes that are apparently knotted together(small knotted to the middle of the long rope). A tug on the long rope causes the short rope to fall off AND be unknotted(which differs from the typical pop-off knot effect).

Before I get into that, let me clarify some terms/names. There is a Hunter (puzzle) knot, and a Hunter Bow knot. Each uses just one rope. The Hunter puzzle knot involves tieing a true knot (apparently) w/o letting go of the rope. The Hunter Bow ties a slip/dissolving knot in the rope. Each of these is presented in various sources(Fulves, Tarbell, Daryls Rope, Enc of Rope, Wilson's Complete Course..).

None of these directly does what is being asked for, unless you use Frank's suggestion(apparently tie 2 ropes together, but really tie a bow knot, then palm the short piece). Alternatively you may be able to gimmick the ropes with wax, magnets, rubber cement or string to hold the two pieces together. Or you could tie the short piece around the long piece and just slide it off.

For the pop-off effect though, I could not find anything. Here's a method I just tried/invented?, call it Long's Not Knot. Take the short piece of rope, make it into a tight loop/bite, and teat this loop as a single piece of rope for the rest of the manuevers. Next, make a tight loop/bite of rope in the middle of the long rope. Treat this bite as if it was a single piece of rope, and use this loop in the long rope to tie a simple overhand knot around the loop of the short rope. It will look like the two are tied together. Further, if when tieing this knot around the short piece, you tuck only a very short piece of the long rope through the loop(the loop created as part of tieing the rope into a simple knot), this knot will fly apart when you pull on the ends of the long rope, and the short piece is unknotted. Alternatively, you could tie the knot with the short piece around a loop of the long, but you would need to pull on the short piece to pop it off. I'm not sure if any of this is practical for your interestes.

There are also a number of silk thru silk knots, towel thru arm knots that you might also like to try(subsituting the long rope for the silk, and the short rope for the arm). There are examples of these in Tarbell, Wilson's course, Enc of Rope, and Dary's Rope. Of particular interest might be Eddie Joseph's remarkable release, p330 of the new Ency of Rope Tricks. The trick looks pretty impossible, and I had a hard time getting it to work, but it does. I'm not sure if these would function as a simple pop-off, they may need someone simultaneously tugging on each rope

Message: Posted by: Steve V (Aug 16, 2006 12:51PM)
Here is an idea....make the pop off knot also a false knot. That way you can rub the knot and it vanishes and becomes a straight piece of rope. It ads an additional phase to the routine.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Aug 16, 2006 01:56PM)
Now that John Long has spoken there is nothing more needed to be said. BTW I have always loved "The Hunter Puzzle knot", because when you do it real slow it drives kids crazy.

Steve V
I'm glad to see that your rope magic skills are better than your juggling skills. LOL

Al Angello
Message: Posted by: Steve V (Aug 16, 2006 04:42PM)
Yup, ropes I can do.
Steve V
Message: Posted by: jolyonjenkins (Aug 17, 2006 09:31AM)
Thanks John for the comprehensive reply - I think I understand your patent method and will give it a go.

I did some experimenting (while my broadband connection was down) and found my own solution. Unfortunately I lack the terminology to describe it unambigously, but it's based on a pop knot: effectively you make a bight in the long piece, as per the pop knot, but instead of tying an overhand knot over it with the short piece, you make a slip knot with the short piece and then insert the bight (in the long piece) into it, and then tighten it carefully. If you then pull on both ends of the short piece, it comes off the long piece, and unravels at the same time. It looks reasonably convincing but you would have to prepare the knot in advance, I don't think it could be done on the hoof.

And yes, the Hunter puzzle knot is great fun with kids. I've done it with one or two at a time but it would be great to hand out ropes to a dozen or so