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Topic: Penguin Cups
Message: Posted by: dxsare (Aug 21, 2006 11:26AM)
I was thinking about getting the Penguin Cups and was just wondering how they hold up to other more expensive cups on the market. I can' t seem to find this out, do they hold 3 1" balls on top of the cup? How does the opening compare to say paul fox cups and other's like this? They look great and seem to be a decent weight. I'm not really ready to spend $200+ on cups and the $100 for these seems like a great deal. Opinions??

Dxsare
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 21, 2006 11:37AM)
They have been reviewed many times on this forum. Just to give you a recap, These cups are made by Magic Makers. The quality of the cups varies from cup to cup. The Penguin cups are copper. Every set of these that I have seen needed to be scrubbed out with a scouring pad. The lip varies from cup to cup. How the opening compares to a Paul Fox cup depends on the individual cup. You may get a very nice set or you may get a set that isn't very nice. The quality control on these cups is iffy, at best.

One thing I have noticed on the Penguin cups is that the tops on every set I have seen appear to have been pecked at with some kind of tool, producing little dings in them. This does not appear on the brass cups from Magic Makers.

You would be better off saving a bit more money and purchasing a set from Johnson, Riser or RnT II. The Bazar di Magia cups are more consistent than the Penguin cups.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Aug 21, 2006 12:35PM)
I agree with Bill. I have noticed that the quality of the brass cups seems more consistent than that of the copper ones, though. Bill - what do you think? The chomed ones are very roughly done.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 21, 2006 01:54PM)
There were two different plated sets, the chrome ones, most of which were rejected, and the gold ones, which are quite difficult to find.

Both of these used the copper cups as the basis. Evidently, the laborers did not know what these were for and really didn't care. Nor did they prepare the surfaces properly.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Aug 21, 2006 05:33PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-21 14:54, Bill Palmer wrote:
There were two different plated sets, the chrome ones, most of which were rejected...
[/quote]

I can understand why! Unfortunately, I bought a set. The saddle area of all the cups is really rough - not good at all.

Of all the different types, the brass seems to have the most consistent quality. I don't know why that should be. It's also curious why the brass sets have that flattened area in the saddle when none of the rest do. Different chucks maybe?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 21, 2006 05:49PM)
Probably a different pressure plate. It's hard to say.
Message: Posted by: peter teagle (Aug 21, 2006 07:08PM)
Bill

I have say I bought Penguin cups over a year ago and they appear to be fine, none of the dinks or blemishes you mentioned. Mine stack perfectly, the lips are consistant on every cup and for me they seem a good weight and are a pleasure to use, but I'm no expert! Maybe I was lucky!


peter
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 21, 2006 07:36PM)
You definitely were.
Message: Posted by: swtrocks (Aug 21, 2006 10:40PM)
It's also worth mentioning that although they were made to have a lacrosse ball as a final load, many (if not most), despite being taller than original Paul Fox cups, do not have the correct dimentions to completely fit a lacrosse ball. If you manage to obtain a set that does fit lacrosse balls, then you are extremely lucky.
Message: Posted by: wolfsong (Aug 21, 2006 11:06PM)
Bill have you heard who will be making the new Gazzo cups for Penguin? Also will they
be the same size as the old ones?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 21, 2006 11:11PM)
I haven't heard anything.

Your guess is as good as mine.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Aug 21, 2006 11:31PM)
Wherever they get a good deal in china, I would expect.
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Aug 22, 2006 12:32AM)
I have Penguin cups and they serve me well...who needs lacross balls when you can use limes?

johnny
Message: Posted by: flimnar (Aug 22, 2006 01:48AM)
Whoever is going to make the Gazzo cups, there doesn't seem to be a hurry......

Flimnar
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 22, 2006 12:41PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-22 01:32, johnnymystic wrote:
I have Penguin cups and they serve me well...who needs lacross balls when you can use limes?

johnny
[/quote]

Perhaps it's time for a lesson in cup design. Paul Fox designed these cups in such a way that they would take a lacrosse ball as a final load, but when you place the same ball on top of the cup, it looks to big to fit into the cup. A lime does not achieve the same thing.
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Aug 22, 2006 08:28PM)
No, a lime does not achieve the same effect Bill, you are most correct. Lately I've been finding a lot of very round limes, yet still they do not work as good as a lacross ball or tennis balls.

johnny
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Aug 22, 2006 08:42PM)
Heres a pic of my Penguin Cups...
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Aug 22, 2006 08:48PM)
Heres another pic
Message: Posted by: swtrocks (Aug 23, 2006 12:29AM)
Could you perhaps post a bigger, close-up picture of the cups with the limes on top? I would very much like to see the overall appearance of the display.
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Aug 23, 2006 12:37AM)
Yeah, those pics are kinda small aren't they?

give me a day or two and I'll do as you ask my friend...

johnny
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 23, 2006 10:16AM)
Why don't you just post a link to Penguin. There are photos of the cups on their web site?

Or go to the cups and balls museum. You can see all of these cups, including the rare ones you can't get any more.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Oct 2, 2006 06:52PM)
Penguins cups are very good for the price, but if you don't want to expend 100 bucks look on ebay or magic shops on line for Magic Makers cups they are 50 bucks or less. So if you get a little defective set, what the %#"$! ??.
you will get what you paid for. if you are lucky you will get a perfect Paul Fox copy.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Oct 2, 2006 07:51PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-02 19:52, pintorama wrote:
Penguins cups are very good for the price, but if you don't want to expend 100 bucks look on ebay or magic shops on line for Magic Makers cups they are 50 bucks or less. So if you get a little defective set, what the %#"$! ??.
you will get what you paid for. if you are lucky you will get a perfect Paul Fox copy.
[/quote]
Perfect Paul Fox Copy? LOL It's been tried, Busby, us at RNT II. There is no such thing as a PERFECT Paul Fox copy. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Oct 2, 2006 08:16PM)
I meant a non defective set. Even those Porper cups that you love are not perfect.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Oct 3, 2006 12:43AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-02 21:16, pintorama wrote:
I meant a non defective set. Even those Porper cups that you love are not perfect.

[/quote]

Ok, whats not perfect about the Porper cups? What are the flaws? Saying the Porper cups are not Perfect has nothing to do with the fact that several of us have tried to reproduce the Paul Fox cup Spec for Spec and have been unsuccessful. That's nothing to do with perfection, but ultimate failure.

If you received a set of Porper cups with no box and no wand, they must be used, I've never known Joe to cut loose an order without the box and wand. So if they're used cups, well of course they wouldn't be mint if actually used for performance.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2006 02:10AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-02 21:16, pintorama wrote:
I meant a non defective set. Even those Porper cups that you love are not perfect.

[/quote]

I also am curious as to what you mean by this. Although I have only one set of his metal cups, they are uniform, well-balanced and carefully engineered. When you make CNC cups, they come very close to being perfectly identical. Any deviation will occur if there is a polishing problem. I've never seen this on a set of Porper cups.

Granted, Joe can stick up for himself, so I really don't need to say this.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 3, 2006 09:58AM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-02 20:51, Mad Jake wrote:
[Perfect Paul Fox Copy? LOL It's been tried, Busby, us at RNT II. There is no such thing as a PERFECT Paul Fox copy. :rotf:
[/quote]

That is fascinating. Is there a particular feature that is causing problems? Or is it a matter of getting one part right, then having something unexpected happen to another?

Cool.

John
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Oct 3, 2006 10:49AM)
If they weight almost the same, are they perfect ??
All I said was that not all penguins sets are defective. I know Jake can make them much better, but over $200.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2006 12:40PM)
You are playing with words. Let's turn your question around. If they have different weights, say .1 ounce, are they imperfect? Does "perfection" mean that each one is absolutely identical? If so, then we get back to the old "well, each item has one tiny defect, because only the Almighty is perfect."

The reason the Penguin cups are cheaper is because of cheap Chinese labor and cheap materials. A bad copper alloy (few people use pure copper, for various reasons) can produce really strange results.

Even doing it himself, it costs Jake more to make a set of cups than it does to get them from China.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Oct 3, 2006 12:56PM)
BILL,
I agree.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Oct 3, 2006 12:59PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-03 10:58, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-10-02 20:51, Mad Jake wrote:
[Perfect Paul Fox Copy? LOL It's been tried, Busby, us at RNT II. There is no such thing as a PERFECT Paul Fox copy. :rotf:
[/quote]

That is fascinating. Is there a particular feature that is causing problems? Or is it a matter of getting one part right, then having something unexpected happen to another?

Cool.

John
[/quote]

John,
yes, it's the blend from the saddle ridge to the shoulder bead. I've tried laser scanning the originals, but as most know there was multiple toolings used and I think they ran these in batches using different toolings, I have about 15 sets of PF/DD in copper that I spent years collecting just to make a match. So even back then tooling wasn't duplicated quite the same. Even some of the saddle ridges were different from set to set over the years, one had the sharp edge some had a rounded edge.

We're retiring the whole PF line at RNT II. They have run their course, I have several stainless sets left and that's that. Time to move on. Maybe in the year 3000 someone will be able to duplicate a PF spec for spec with that bloody blending :)

Jake
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Oct 3, 2006 01:15PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-03 13:40, Bill Palmer wrote:
You are playing with words. Let's turn your question around. If they have different weights, say .1 ounce, are they imperfect? Does "perfection" mean that each one is absolutely identical? If so, then we get back to the old "well, each item has one tiny defect, because only the Almighty is perfect."

The reason the Penguin cups are cheaper is because of cheap Chinese labor and cheap materials. A bad copper alloy (few people use pure copper, for various reasons) can produce really strange results.

Even doing it himself, it costs Jake more to make a set of cups than it does to get them from China.
[/quote]
I did a cross cut of my first set of Penguins, people have no idea of the copper crap they are using in China, there is more alloy than copper. And pitting, holy crike! The pits under the polish are horrible, which eventually show up after maintenance polishing. This is caused by the alloy and the lack of correct annealing.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, CNC is NOT an EXACT science, what looks identical may vary in weight depending on the density of the block or bar stock used. I paid close to 1K for my stainless cups I think, would I do it again? *** straight, Porper cups are the pinnacle of cnc perfection, along with Johnson cups. CNC is also very expensive, I bet Joe had to change out milling bits ever few sets of cups if not sooner. Diamond carbide bits, you need a small loan to buy a set.

Johnson released the copper version of their famed brass cup. I bet more were scrapped than actually produced. Even machine grade copper is a bugger to CNC due to being so soft.

The small crafters, Jim Riser, Joe Porper, Todd Lassen, Jamie Schoolcraft and RNT II, we have a reputation to uphold. One we hold dear to us, I'm sure none of us know what an 8 hour work day is, the next time you look at a product from anyone of us and see a price tag on it that you feel is too high, please take into consideration something that none of us factor into the cost of our production. We don't factor in those nights when there's an empty seat at the dinner table, or our wives roll over at night and we're not in bed and the shop light is still on, or our children sad because we were involved in a custom order and we couldn't make it to a ball game. Some of us suffered heart attacks and watched our families fall apart because we love our craft so much, we will make sure we give everyone their moneys worth for top notch products.

If anyone of us ever used these factors, time we will never get back, no one could afford us, time with our loved ones is PRICELESS. So the next time you look at a set of Penguin or Tragic Maker cups, think about the little guy over in China making 85 cents an hour and using crap material. Then look at ours and think about what we actually sacrifice to bring the BEST tools to the market.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2006 02:12PM)
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause:
:applause:

I should add that the van Dokkum cups are also extremely well crafted. When you look at the nesting cups he did for Mark Mason, you see some really fine work. I've been in Auke's machine shop, and I've seen him do his thing. Some people think CNC is a short cut. While it does some things very well and very quickly, there is a LOT of waste. My monster cups are a perfect example. These cups weigh almost 2 Kg. each. They are cut from a chunk of stainless that weighs about 24 Kg. That's more than 90% waste. None of that is recoverable. And the cups don't come from the CNC machine finished. After they are cut, then they are hand polished. This polishing is not a cheap process as Jake, Jim Riser and Auke can tell you.


I wish I could talk about some of the things Auke has coming out, but I have to keep MUM. I usually keep it on the shelf next to TLR.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Oct 3, 2006 02:53PM)
Bill,
I feel horrible, I left Auke out. There is a man who can work MAGIC with a CNC machine. We have several small CNC milling machines here we use for signs, anything done with solid stock raw materials has a huge waste factor.

Hats off to Auke, and again my apologies for leaving him out of the list.

Jake
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Oct 3, 2006 03:21PM)
$458 bucks for a standard size cups, is quite fair since they are CNC and Auke's work is consider TOP OF THE LINE. I don't have a set yet, but I have handled them.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 3, 2006 04:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-10-03 15:53, Mad Jake wrote:
Bill,
I feel horrible, I left Auke out. There is a man who can work MAGIC with a CNC machine. We have several small CNC milling machines here we use for signs, anything done with solid stock raw materials has a huge waste factor.

Hats off to Auke, and again my apologies for leaving him out of the list.

Jake
[/quote]

Don't feel bad. It's hard to remember everyone. If you drop one of those Monster cups on your foot, you will never forget him! ;)
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Oct 3, 2006 08:25PM)
Are those monster cups workable? Or they are just like a toy or what? I have never seen a magician using one of those monster cups, may need 2 magicians to handle them, but very unpractical.
I wonder if Penn & Teller would like to give it a try.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 4, 2006 07:51PM)
So far there are only two sets in existence. I have one set and Piet Forton has the other. They are workable, but it requires some odd techniques to get the most out of them. Benson Bowl moves work well with them.