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Topic: Riser Copper Mini Cups
Message: Posted by: abbascup (Sep 4, 2006 02:30PM)
I am looking for a set. PM me!
Message: Posted by: flimnar (Sep 4, 2006 06:03PM)
If you don't find a set, I believe RNT2 was advertising a set that will work. I haven't personally seen the whole set. I do have the copper chop cup alone and it is great! Might be worth checking into since the Riser cups are so hard to come by.

Flimnar
Message: Posted by: Josh the Superfluous (Sep 4, 2006 10:24PM)
Flimnar, I guess you don't care to be on James' sell to list.
Abbascup, good luck. I love my Riser gear more than any other magic possessions.
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Sep 4, 2006 11:43PM)
A Riser is the Riser, there is no substitute, period.
Message: Posted by: flimnar (Sep 5, 2006 12:44AM)
My understanding is a Riser set is no longer an alternative in this size.....am I missing something? I'm a HUGE fan of Riser's work--no sleight intended!

Flimnar
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 5, 2006 12:01PM)
James reissues cups from time to time. Just check his site out.

If you can't get a set of those, don't forget about the Van Dokkum Minis. You can get them in stainless or brass.

And RnT II has many alternatives as well.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 03:16PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-04 23:24, Josh the Superfluous wrote:
Flimnar, I guess you don't care to be on James' sell to list.
Abbascup, good luck. I love my Riser gear more than any other magic possessions.
[/quote]

What because Flimnar recommends RNT II he'll be cut from Jim's sell to list? Arrogance is bliss.

RNT II makes the mini PF which take a golf ball as a final load, the Foxy II minis also take a golf ball.
Message: Posted by: Josh the Superfluous (Sep 5, 2006 03:52PM)
I by no means represent James Riser. My comment was tongue in cheek, but he makes a very limited quantity and puts a lot of love into each piece, and therefore can be selective with whom he sells. I am aware of your differences and the bad blood between him and your company. If someone was looking for one of your products, and the first response they received was to look to another vendor, I'm sure you would be put off as well.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 04:07PM)
Josh, if you check I have in the past and still recommend Jim's products. I had a client last week looking for a Salt Pour and referred him to Jim's site.

From an engineering and performer stand point my mini Riser's are just collectibles, each cup is a different height, yes the 3 cups are off from each other, in addition each cup has a flat spot, the exact same spot that appears on the Magic Makers Paul Faux cups that Bill Palmer points out on his site. Again while I recommend other products by Jim, the minis aren't one of them because of the above mentioned inconsistancies. I know cups that are handspun are all never exactly alike, but these differences are quite noticible.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Josh the Superfluous (Sep 5, 2006 04:11PM)
Poppycock!
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 04:21PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-05 17:11, Josh the Superfluous wrote:
Poppycock!
[/quote]
As I stated earlier Arrogance is bliss. I'll be posting a photo of the set I recieved with the exact flaws I mentioned.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Josh the Superfluous (Sep 5, 2006 04:29PM)
My experience with Riser products is perfection. My only experience with you, is your calling me arrogant.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 04:33PM)
Well, these cups are far from Perfection, or maybe there are different levels of perfection. Basically from your remark of "Poppycock" you are claiming the imperfections in my Riser mini's do not exist, that is arrogance, so if the shoe fit's wear it.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 04:52PM)
Here are the pictures, the first is the top of the 3 cups, each has the flat spot and dimple I mentioned....

http://www.quickstopengraving.com/cuppix/DSCN0950.JPG

This picture is the 3 cups next to each other, 2 differ in height, 1 has a bulge from the saddle to the shoulder and the shoulder beads are inconsistant.

http://www.quickstopengraving.com/cuppix/DSCN0951.JPG

So this is how I can say I can't recommend the minis, and after talking with another person, their set is the same way, and he claims that the weights are off by more than 1/10th per cup.

Again, I like Jim's work for the most part, however with this particular product there are engineering and obvious production issues, I'm not being unfair, quite objective actually as the pix provided show the claims. But again, our definitions of Perfection may differ, just like this set of cups.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Sep 5, 2006 05:15PM)
Innocent question: As an end user who probably will ever only own or even see one of these cups, does the size difference and flat spot really make a difference?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 5, 2006 05:43PM)
My Babe cups and my Gazzo cups had rather large descrepancies in their height. Close to 3/16". The only time this made any difference at all was when they were stacked for display on a shelf.

My riser mini's were absolutely perfect as I started checking to see which cups had this difference.

In the end I opted for RNTII mini PF stainless cups for performing becuase they were easier for me to handle vs. the Riser minis. I think it was the height.

Personally, I cannot imagine how to hand-spin cups and have them end up the same height. Seems like a miracle. That's why I don't spin cups. I wish I did, tho.

Lucky for me both my Riser's and my RNTII cups worked out.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 05:43PM)
Dave,

good question and the answer lies with the collectors. Collectors have set the standards we have and try to meet today. Some are very good points as a manufacturer to observe and some things are trivial, but none the less important to a collector and by no means should be ignored.

I've seen posts where one collector sent back a set of cups because the set number that was engraved on the inside bead was not up to par, some will send a set back due to a faint spin line, but again, neither of these points are unimportant to the collector, nor should they be to the person making the cups.

We had a set of cups come back because the mouth beads differed 1/32 from each other, again if it's important enough for the customer to notice and point out to us, it's important enough to watch in the future to make sure they are more accurate. If were to send out cups with flat spots, cup height difference and bead differences, both a performer and a collector would surely point this out.

This was not an attack on Jim, as I stated, I still refer people to his site for certain items because of their specific request. Bad blood or not, if a customer is looking for something in particular and Jim is the best person to seek out, I will continue to send them to his site. In this particular instance I only voiced as a "Collector" my disapointment with the set and the reason. I always maintain tangible proof of my claims with either documentation or photos.

I have numerous Riser products on display in my collection, which I display proudly, his craftmanship is top notch, but this particular item was not up to par.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 5, 2006 05:46PM)
Probably not. You should see the current set of antique Indian Cups I'm using. They vary about 1/8th of an inch and I love 'em.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 5, 2006 05:55PM)
The RnT II Paul Fox Mini's and Foxy II's will take a racquetball or a miniature tennis ball, such as those that are sold in pet shops. So will the Risers. These are slightly bigger than a golf ball.

The best golf ball to use in any mini cups is a fakini golf ball.

The three cups that came in my Riser mini set are very close in height and other specs. The one that came with my "Making of a cup" set is slightly shorter.

In the end, though, none of the differences will affect the way they handle.

I do like those Paul Fox mini's, though!
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 06:16PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-05 18:55, Bill Palmer wrote:

The best golf ball to use in any mini cups is a fakini golf ball.

[/quote]

I actually like using the Sponge Bob Square Pants golf balls, you can
get them in 6 packs from Walmart in the sporting goods. When Mike was shipping the smiley balls in the begining they were great, but that smiling Sponge Bob Face on the balls is just too cute and plays great with both adults and children.
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Sep 5, 2006 07:19PM)
Hmmm, I would be concerned if the cups were too exact, meaning the cups were totally machined as some of the CNC products, whereas handcrafted work is bound to show slight imperfections as I doubt any human is perfect. I prefer the human touch...now that is real art. I doubt the imperfections would affect the working. I have several of Jim's cups and they are a beauty to behold and have found no problems with stacking or loading.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 5, 2006 08:42PM)
I guess collectors have changed their high expectations then. These would be unacceptable to most collectors that we have dealt with for the past 3 years. The noticible flat spots are far from slight imperfections, they look horrible on the tops of the cups. When we sent out the corrected run of PF stainless, some had a fingernail tip size swirl in the saddle. Needless to say the ones that recieved these contacted us and were replaced. So while one person may feel one way, another will feel different.

Quite frankly I feel the way George does about hand spinning because its factual, but there are many out there that don't share our views and expect more.
Message: Posted by: abbascup (Sep 6, 2006 05:45AM)
I for one feel the same way Jake does. That goes for anything I buy new. If my cups have any dings or dents or flat spots, I want to be the one that put them there.
Message: Posted by: James Kernen (Sep 6, 2006 05:57AM)
I just weighed a set of Jumbo Risers that I sold on ebay.... The cups varied in weight from 7.3-7.5oz each (using a fancy postal scale)... I also weighed some of my gazzo's that I will be trying to sell some time in the near future, and their weights had the same type of variances.....
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 6, 2006 11:14AM)
Fellows (and I use that term in the most non-gender specific sense of the word)

We are living in the Golden Age of Cups and Balls.

Right now, there are more different kinds of cups offered than at any other time in the history of the Art of Magic. The prices are quite reasonable, considering what inflation has done to them.

In the 1960's there were about half a dozen sets of cups manufactured in the US -- a dozen or so, if you consider the variations in metals. There were the P&L cups, the Abbott's cups (some made by P&L), the Kanter's cups (remainders of Brema stock), the PF/DD cups (two basic models), The Al Wheatley Chop Cups, and a few models from Europe.

Now we can purchase cups made by a multitude of manufacturers. These cups come in any size from slightly larger than a thimble to large enough to take a five inch load ball.

The prices aren't really that much different. The Consumer Price Index would indicate that the difference should be something like a factor of 4. However, if you compare prices in similar fields, that is not realistic. The price of a bottled soft drink is about 20 times that of what it was in 1950. Granted, the bottles contain more soft drink, but the bottles themselves cost more than the contents.

A Gibson banjo that listed for $100 in 1950 now lists for roughly $2500. That's a factor of 25. And look at the price of movie tickets and concert tickets. There is really no comparison.

So, let's figure that a set of PF/DD chick cups cost roughly $30 in 1960. That would have been when they came out. Similar cups from RnT II or James Riser cost $325 - $350. That's not bad at all.

And look at all the different things that are available. In 1960, you had a choice of two chop cups -- the tall one or the short one. Now look how many.

I'm just thankful that we have so many people around who know how to make cups.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 6, 2006 01:32PM)
I agree. And I also think that this Golden Age will not last forever.

I also agree about the quality of the RNT II mini-PF cups. I love my set and am grateful to live in a time when I can even own such a set.

Abbascup, the Riser mini-cups were made in copper. They are also virtually unobtainable. There are still a few sets of RNT II mini-PF cups in copper available. Why not check those out?
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Sep 6, 2006 02:52PM)
I just hope I can get the silver and gold Sherwoods before it all said and done.
It is great that we have so many choices in cups right now.
Mobius
Message: Posted by: Mitch Schneiter (Sep 6, 2006 03:08PM)
I've got a set of Riser Mini's and they are a great set of cups. And I've been happy with all the Jim Riser crafted items I've purschased. Jim makes some beautiful stuff.
As much as I like the Riser Mini cups I did switch over to the RNTII Mini PF cups when they became available. As Frank mentioned, I also found that the Mini PF cups seem to handle better for me. In fact I like them so much I ended up buying sets in copper, stainless steel, and brass. Now if Jake produces a set in antique bronze...
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 6, 2006 03:44PM)
LOL @ Mitch, ok now you have your brother inlaw peeking in the shop windows! I just turned a set to see how they would look and well, I'm happy :) Mitch, how did your sister make out with the flooding here? Hope all faired well for them.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 6, 2006 04:39PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-06 14:32, Ray Haining wrote:
I also agree about the quality of the RNT II mini-PF cups. I love my set and am grateful to live in a time when I can even own such a set.
[/quote]

Ray, thank you. We are just as fortunate to have peformers and collectors alike who compliment on our products.

One thing I would like to point out, my comments about the Riser Mini's are not an attack on Jim's work or the cups, these are personal observations. Since my time with RNT II I have NEVER ever pitched our product against another by downplaying someone else's cups, well maybe once, and the cups were made in India, but I kept the comparison factual. While anyone who owns a set of the Riser Minis find them to be the best mini's they have ever used, this is a VERY good thing, that means the customer/peformer is satisfied with their purchase and the craftmanship.

Others who have changed from one set to another have clearly stated why, it's the handling and the most important thing, they are a unique Individual with different expectations or limitations if any for a certain style cup. It's not that the RNT II cups is better made, or is better than the Riser Mini's, it's the bottom line of what the Peformer and individual feels about the props he's using.

No one, not myself or anyone employed here will use "bashing tactics" of another persons product to gain a sale. If they do, I would appreciate it very much if it were brought to my attention as quickly as possible.

The best in Magic and health to everyone!

Jake
Message: Posted by: abbascup (Sep 6, 2006 06:31PM)
Well I'm getting the Rnt2 PF minis. Jake is busy polishing some other cups for me. Luckily he still had a couple sets of these available. I like the PF style very much so I can't wait to have the minis in my hand.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 6, 2006 06:59PM)
I guarantee, once you get them, you'll love them.

Also, check out their glitter balls (I recommend red). They really make a difference.
Message: Posted by: abbascup (Sep 6, 2006 07:42PM)
Thanks Ray! I just sent a PM to Jake about these. They sound nice.
Message: Posted by: Mitch Schneiter (Sep 6, 2006 10:35PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-06 16:44, Mad Jake wrote:
LOL @ Mitch, ok now you have your brother inlaw peeking in the shop windows! I just turned a set to see how they would look and well, I'm happy :) Jake
[/quote]

He wasn't peeking; He was just walking by your shop windows and happened to glance inside.
We'll have to talk about those antique bronze PF mini cups. Really.
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Sep 9, 2006 05:02PM)
http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/MiniCup/Progress.html

I would e-mail Jim....he will be back Oct. 6 2006.
He will let you know about the cup availability
mobius
Message: Posted by: Mitch Schneiter (Sep 9, 2006 07:24PM)
Jim's work is certainly worth the wait.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 9, 2006 09:45PM)
According to his website, Jim Riser will no longer be making the mini-cups he has offered in the past. He is working on a new design.
Message: Posted by: abbascup (Sep 10, 2006 05:20AM)
This post sure turned into a lot more than I was expecting. Thanks to everyone who posted here.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 12, 2006 08:23PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-09 20:24, Mitch Schneiter wrote:
Jim's work is certainly worth the wait.
[/quote]

What the hell you trying to say Mitch? Ours isn't? :rotf:

Jake
Message: Posted by: Mitch Schneiter (Sep 13, 2006 11:41AM)
Now Jake, you know that ain't so. You certainly know how many RNTII items I am patiently waiting for right now. Patiently that is if you don't count all the phone calls and e-mails to you. Ha! And of course, all your stuff is certainly worth the wait. By the way, have we talked about those antique broze PF mini cups yet?
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 14, 2006 02:22PM)
Was just kidding with you Mitch. You have the patience of a Saint :) I don't recall talking about the Mini's in Bronze, but I'm sure we could work a set into the schedule somehow.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 14, 2006 04:35PM)
Could you make that two sets, please?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 14, 2006 05:14PM)
I might use my mini's at a strolling gig tonight.
We shall see. If it's the same as last year, a lot of the
tables are TOO TALL!!!
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 15, 2006 04:28PM)
Ok guys that's 2 sets of Mini PF in antique, do I hear 3? :) Will start them this weekend for you Bill and Mitch! Thanks.

Jake
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 15, 2006 04:36PM)
Cool!
Message: Posted by: James Kernen (Sep 15, 2006 07:21PM)
3
Message: Posted by: James Kernen (Sep 15, 2006 07:28PM)
Actually, 1 (to make it 3)
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 15, 2006 09:31PM)
Thanks! 3 it is, do I hear 4? That way we don't have chuck up twice :) 4 do I hear 4? :rotf:

Jake
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 15, 2006 10:31PM)
In my spare time have turned out some wood items as well.

http://www.rnt2.com/product.aspx?productno=245

http://www.rnt2.com/product.aspx?productno=246
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 16, 2006 12:34AM)
It's okay to chuck up twice. It's not okay to upchuck twice.
;)

Sorry about that. I couldn't resist.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Sep 16, 2006 12:36AM)
Guys: What size balls do you use in the PF minis? And what's the max size for a final load?
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 16, 2006 01:15AM)
Chris,
the Minis will take a golf ball as a final load or a 2" crochet ball. The cups ship with 5/8 crochet, but you can use (3) 3/4" balls on the saddle and stack the cups without rocking or sticking.

Cheers,
Jake
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 16, 2006 01:16AM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-16 01:34, Bill Palmer wrote:
It's okay to chuck up twice. It's not okay to upchuck twice.
;)

Sorry about that. I couldn't resist.
[/quote]

:rotf:
Message: Posted by: Christopher Moro (Sep 16, 2006 03:16AM)
Thanks, Jake. Wow, those are small.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 16, 2006 04:02AM)
A racquetball or a medium sized doggy tennis ball will also work in these cups.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Sep 16, 2006 10:17AM)
Practice golf balls are good too - they make less noise when loading, are lighter to carry and also come in some funky colours. The stripy ones are really good (click [url=http://www.golf-products.co.uk/prodimages/srtipe.jpg]here[/url])
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 16, 2006 10:27AM)
I make felt balls to fit perfectly inside.
I start with a large wooden core (I used to not do this) and then
increase the size until I get a perfect match.
They load very quietly, and match the small balls.

http://www.theambitiouscard.com/img/www-105.jpg

I also use smash balls / paddle balls from the sporting goods store.