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Topic: Too Heavy????
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (Sep 9, 2006 08:09PM)
Can this style of magick go too heavy? I don't think so. :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 9, 2006 08:27PM)
Yes, in the sense that, in true form, our angle of this beloved Craft can and does forcefully cause the would be sleepwalker to awaken from their slumber and grasp the ungraspable.......we present, in our work, the possiblity of impossiblity, and this can rain down hard on a one who is stuck in the box of conformity and comfort, as it were...

I love this quality of our Magick, and I perpetuate it anytime I can--I love to see their brows raised, forcing them as I do, to admit that the "real" is not the "Real"..........

I don't come to simply entertain, neither to distract them from the mundane; I come to raise the Dead.

Frat:.

Baba



ps. WONDERFUL QUESTION---NOW LETS GET SOME HIGHER REASONINGS GOING ON HERE!!!
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 9, 2006 09:39PM)
As I have commented before, I try to open minds to a broader view of reality, to show that what we experience in ordinary life is but a fraction of Reality. There is wonder in it all and many miss experiencing that wonder as they struggle with the mundane and ordinary. Often, the darker aspects of Reality must be experienced to transcend the ordinary, to have one's eyes opened.

Naljorpa
Message: Posted by: tag (Sep 9, 2006 11:20PM)
Excuse me, it appears I accidentally stumbled into a Gurdjieff study group forum.

The minute you flakes start doing "the movements", I'm so out of here. I was hoping that with the death of the Grateful Dead we'd never have to see grown men doing the bubble dance ever again, but....
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 9, 2006 11:50PM)
DO I COME IN A COMMENT ON ALL OF YOUR STUPID, BASELESS POSTS?? NO, NOW BE GONE AND LEAVE US ALONE--

THERE ARE MANY ANGLES TO THIS CRAFT--AND SOME CHOOSE TO EMPLOY LIGHT AS THEIR BASIS AND TOOL FOR THEIR WORK...
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (Sep 10, 2006 01:18AM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-10 00:20, tag wrote:
Excuse me, it appears I accidentally stumbled into a Gurdjieff study group forum.

The minute you flakes start doing "the movements", I'm so out of here. I was hoping that with the death of the Grateful Dead we'd never have to see grown men doing the bubble dance ever again, but....
[/quote]

What in the F*** are you talking about? :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 10, 2006 09:38AM)
Tag, when you first appeared here I thought you might be an interesting performer and have something to contribute. I see I was wrong. I don't appreciate being called a "flake," especially by someone such as you. You have a right to your opinion (or so I'm told), but don't throw it at me.

Posted: Sep 10, 2006 12:04pm
The Dark and the Light are but two sides of the same coin.

In the words of Aleister Crowley, "...the world of magick is a mirror wherein one who sees muck is muck."

Nal
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Sep 10, 2006 11:52AM)
Heck, it all depends what and how you do it. For example - mentalism by itself if freaky for many - then if you do a homicide booktest - that is even freakier (for the first time, my wife wouldn't let me practice that effect on her when it involved dead people - shucks (see other thread about sig. others putting limits on demon summoning and seances).... if you get really psychological you can really crawl into a spec's mind - hence why magic must be done with great respect - you can really scew up some people who are sensitive and vulnerable to a particluar theme or concept.
Message: Posted by: Merlin C (Sep 10, 2006 11:57AM)
Much has rightly been discussed here of how bizarre magick doesn't have to be heavy, the value of light and shade, and how things can be circumstantially too heavy for you to pull off credibly, or be suitable for particular venues and audiences, be liable to make people tune out, unqualified performers trying to do therapy, etc.

But I don't see how it can be too heavy [i]a priori[/i]; people make, and watch, stuff that's far more dramatically and philosophically weighty than any magic I've seen in person. 99 times out of 100 it's being not heavy enough that magicians still ought to worry about.

tag, what's your objection to mind-opening again?
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 10, 2006 12:12PM)
Dr. Spektor, Merlin, excellent points.....

In an era where blood and gore are the norm on the airwaves, the things we do are not nearly as numbing as this society and their chosen path of destruction, methinks...

I just wanna be a Cult Leader, is all :)
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 10, 2006 12:12PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-10 12:04, Bill Ligon wrote:
The Dark and the Light are but two sides of the same coin.

In the words of Aleister Crowley, "...the world of magick is a mirror wherein one who sees muck is muck."

Nal
[/quote]

YESSS!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 10, 2006 01:10PM)
Of course, there are a few who lack minds to open!

Nal
Message: Posted by: tag (Sep 10, 2006 01:31PM)
Wow, touchy little egos around here.

First of all, I find it funny that on a section of this site where a book named [i]Psychological Subtleties[/i] is regularly recommended, without the aid of smilies some people miss the boat entirely.

Second:
[quote]our angle of this beloved Craft can and does forcefully cause the would be sleepwalker to awaken from their slumber and grasp the ungraspable.[/quote]

Now, one second of googling Gurdjieff would have pulled up this:
[quote]Criticism of Gurdjieff's system probably spring mostly from his insistence that nearly all people today live in a state of "waking sleep."[/quote]

And Gurdjieff's favorite manner of waking the sleepers?
[quote]The feature film Meetings with Remarkable Men (1979), based on Gurdjieff's book by the same name, depicts rare performances of the sacred dances taught to serious students of his work known simply as the movements. [/quote]

However, if you still want to believe that I called you a flake, far be it from me to stand in the way. Unless of course, you still bubble dance around your living room to [i]Grateful Dead[/i] bootlegs. In which case, yes, I am undeniably calling you a flake.

Sorry sparkys, but one second of google would have saved you a whole lot of self-rightousness.

I did enjoy the Crowley quote, because let's see, a thelemite missing the joke and then falling back on quoting the Great Beast? Nah, that [b]never[/b] happens. (Do I really need to include a smilie for that?) While we're on it, that is one show I'd love to see Bill, you explaining to Crowley how you used his quote to defend "magic", you know, the domain of "dilletantes and eccentrics". Now that would be a spectacle!
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 10, 2006 01:40PM)
OH, I get it NOW......
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Sep 10, 2006 02:06PM)
...In the beginning, the Shaman would mix magic (small "m" no k at the end...) and ritual to amaze, enlighten and cower the others of his tribe. I see no reason why one, so inclined, should not do so today. Gurdjieff, Great Beast or not!

Magic is a big place. You can do it in the gutter or you can do it in a sacred temple.
Message: Posted by: coupcoupdaddy (Sep 10, 2006 02:36PM)
With the ATM in between!

H D X!

Lydias Seven
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 10, 2006 02:52PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-10 15:06, gaddy wrote:
...In the beginning, the Shaman would mix magic (small "m" no k at the end...) and ritual to amaze, enlighten and cower the others of his tribe. I see no reason why one, so inclined, should not do so today. Gurdjieff, Great Beast or not!

Magic is a big place. You can do it in the gutter or you can do it in a sacred temple.
[/quote]

Yes, Yes....I cover this to great extent in one of my essays in my book..much to be said about this....
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 10, 2006 04:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-10 14:31, tag wrote:
Wow, touchy little egos around here.

First of all, I find it funny that on a section of this site where a book named [i]Psychological Subtleties[/i] is regularly recommended, without the aid of smilies some people miss the boat entirely.

Second:
[quote]our angle of this beloved Craft can and does forcefully cause the would be sleepwalker to awaken from their slumber and grasp the ungraspable.[/quote]

Now, one second of googling Gurdjieff would have pulled up this:
[quote]Criticism of Gurdjieff's system probably spring mostly from his insistence that nearly all people today live in a state of "waking sleep."[/quote]

And Gurdjieff's favorite manner of waking the sleepers?
[quote]The feature film Meetings with Remarkable Men (1979), based on Gurdjieff's book by the same name, depicts rare performances of the sacred dances taught to serious students of his work known simply as the movements. [/quote]

However, if you still want to believe that I called you a flake, far be it from me to stand in the way. Unless of course, you still bubble dance around your living room to [i]Grateful Dead[/i] bootlegs. In which case, yes, I am undeniably calling you a flake.

Sorry sparkys, but one second of google would have saved you a whole lot of self-rightousness.

I did enjoy the Crowley quote, because let's see, a thelemite missing the joke and then falling back on quoting the Great Beast? Nah, that [b]never[/b] happens. (Do I really need to include a smilie for that?) While we're on it, that is one show I'd love to see Bill, you explaining to Crowley how you used his quote to defend "magic", you know, the domain of "dilletantes and eccentrics". Now that would be a spectacle!
[/quote]

How this mitigates calling us flakes is beyond me, although smilies would have made the thing more palatable.

My ego is not bruised; it may be a bit tweaked, but it isn't bruised.

I am aware of Gurdjieff's teachings and that he said most people are "asleep." I am also aware of his sacred dances or "movements." So, how googling any of this would have helped, I fail to grasp. I don't bubble dance or listen to the Greatful Dead, nor am I a follower of Gurdjieff, but I don't consider any of these objectionable in themselves.

Further, I am not a Thelemite although my own thinking has undeniably been influenced by Golden Dawn stuff, among other things. Quoting Crowley is no worse than quoting anyone else, really, although your point about defending "magic" is well taken. I wonder what Crowley would think about what we now call "bizarre magic."

BTW, that quote was directed at Arthur Edward Waite. My favorite quote from Crowley happens to be:

"We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon.
Our method is science, our aim is religion."

Naljorpa
Message: Posted by: coupcoupdaddy (Sep 10, 2006 04:52PM)
Virgin, green and small,

Shrivel leg,

Shrivel leg's dog,

Shrivel back and forth.

Let's see who is outside.

H D X!

--Lydias Seven

"We ain't heavy--we're our brother."
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Sep 10, 2006 06:44PM)
My fav Crowley quote is "Do as thy wilt - that is the Law" - he was a wit, that one.

Back to Heaviness - Crowley knew how to present Bizarre Magick in a heavy way! Until he summoned the Beast - things went downhill after that.

(My fav Crowley action was where he got that artist (who was his fan) to shave bald and walk around virtually naked in Egypt - he'd tell people it was his Djinn. Crowley had guts to do real bizarre magick!)
Message: Posted by: Mystician (Sep 10, 2006 09:22PM)
I know not who this Gurdjieff is, but then I never studied philosophy or any of that stuff in school. People do seem to walk in a sleep though, or maybe a better way of putting it is a self induced tunnel vision; I think people don't want to look underneath the bed, around the corner, or in the shadows.
Afterall, how is a lone sentient (that might not be the word I'm looking for) group of beings supposed to handle the bewildering perceptions that bombard our 5 senses and tax our little brains ?
Just dealing with concepts like infinity, the time/space fabric, and God; not to mention the sheer enormity of the known universe, where it seems that thousands more entire galaxies are discovered everyday, and not to mention the age of the universe, and what was before that, and before that... ad infinitum/nasuem ... it's a small wonder we're not all insane. Or maybe we are, and that's the problem. Mmm.. nah.. I think that's why we walk around in deep sleep, it's a self defense mechanism in the form of denial. Most people are busy enough worrying about the mortgage, or getting a babysitter, or passing a test, or a certain biological function, or maybe even just gathering food for the day. The luxury of thinking about such things was, in the past, probably relegated only to the rich and educated; nowadays those of us who choose to stop and smell the .. uhh.. grey matter in our skulls ( :huh: ), can do so, but at the risk of going crazy trying to make sense of it all.

Oh, the original question, can it get too deep ? I'd say yes, but it depends on who you're performing for - as to ourselves, we can get as deep as we dare.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (Sep 10, 2006 09:30PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-10 22:22, Mystician wrote:
it's a small wonder we're not all insane. Or maybe we are, and that's the problem. Mmm.. nah.. I think that's why we walk around in deep sleep, it's a self defense mechanism in the form of denial. Most people are busy enough worrying about the mortgage, or getting a babysitter, or passing a test, or a certain biological function, or maybe even just gathering food for the day. The luxury of thinking about such things was, in the past, probably relegated only to the rich and educated; nowadays those of us who choose to stop and smell the .. uhh.. grey matter in our skulls ( :huh: ), can do so, but at the risk of going crazy trying to make sense of it all.

[/quote]

Insanity,as we all know is relative--but youre right....great points....thats why, I s'ppose its so fun waking them up with a little Voodoo inspired luciferian worship magic....

wake the Hell up people! muhahahahHAHAHAHAA....
Message: Posted by: egregor (Sep 11, 2006 01:32AM)
My favorite Crowley quote:{Crowley speaking to L.Ron Hubbard} "Man, you could make a religion out of this ****".
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Sep 11, 2006 06:40AM)
..now we are going into Lovecraft land! Where he states that the most merciful things the human mind can't do is correlate its contents -> that if we could and understand the universe we would be driven insane or retreat into a new dark age... you can read it in his style at the end of his seminal story "The Call of Cthulhu"....

(I wonder what my daughter will make of the fact she has a stuffed Cthulhu and Hound of Tindalos amongst her toys?)
Message: Posted by: shots (Sep 11, 2006 01:27PM)
Just yesterday I was talking with a magician friend of mine as well as my brother. We were talking about some of the strongest reactions we've had from people when we performed an illusion for them. My friend stated that he'd had some people run from him, saying "he must be a Satanist" after a particularly good effect. I replied "now that's the kind of reaction I love to see!" My brother asked me why in the world I'd want people to think I'm a Satanist. I don't. My point is, when it gets to that extreme, you've created an effect that is so strong that, at least for a moment, the spectator considered the possibility that you actually performed some small miracle, something outside the realm of normal mortals, real magic. That's what I'm after. Suspension of disbelief, however brief it may be. Make them a believer.

Too strong? Never. If it gets that kind of reaction, I'm happy.

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Crowley say "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will."
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 11, 2006 01:52PM)
Yes, that is exactly what Crowley said.
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (Sep 11, 2006 01:53PM)
I quote him often and this quote in particular more often than others...

"Silence Is Foo"

A sign held up...Daffy Duck
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 11, 2006 01:56PM)
Doug, those are the words of a great philosopher.
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Sep 11, 2006 02:11PM)
Hubbard was actually IN a lodge of the OTO (Crowley's order) The structure of the Church of Scientology is directly modeled after the Grade Structure of the OTO.

I think it was Asimov to Hubbard, though...

G

[quote]
On 2006-09-11 02:32, egregor wrote:
My favorite Crowley quote:{Crowley speaking to L.Ron Hubbard} "Man, you could make a religion out of this ****".
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Sep 11, 2006 02:15PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-11 07:40, Dr Spektor wrote:
(I wonder what my daughter will make of the fact she has a stuffed Cthulhu and Hound of Tindalos amongst her toys?)
[/quote]

My cat really, *REALLY* hates the plushie "Crawling Chaos" (made by Toy Vault) I have sitting on the top shelf. She makes some REALLY scary noises when I break that thing out... I think it's the amphibious eyes that freaks her out so much.

G
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Sep 11, 2006 02:33PM)
Heheh... since Lovecraft thought cats were the closest thing to the good guys (Bast etc) I can see why she hates ol' Nye.... (cats - good guys!?!? HPL was clearly mad)....

I could have sworn Crowley said "Do as thou wilst, buster."
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Sep 11, 2006 02:40PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-11 15:33, Dr Spektor wrote:
Heheh... since Lovecraft thought cats were the closest thing to the good guys (Bast etc) I can see why she hates ol' Nye.... (cats - good guys!?!? HPL was clearly mad)....

I could have sworn Crowley said "Do as thou wilst, buster."


[/quote]

AH! I never thought of that! An excellent point!

PS- anyone who has read Crowley's seminal work "Liber Al vel Legis" (The Book of the Law) might be amused by this:

http://larabell.org/Hanuman/Hanuman.cgi/liber999

"Liber Call Me Al 'The Book of the In-Laws"
Message: Posted by: coupcoupdaddy (Sep 11, 2006 04:17PM)
Turban Legend (source: Colin Wilson?)...Gurdj and Crow met in New York once from across a crowded room. Gurdj turned one of Crow's hands into a claw (a prefigurative of Kreskin Hand Squeezer). Evidently, it took Crow several weeks to get his own hand back.
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Sep 11, 2006 05:09PM)
Wow, that chick is quite the tool. I hope one day I can figure it all out and be just like her!

Too little time, way too many little people.
-J
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 11, 2006 05:42PM)
Gaddy, I think it was Asimov, too, but I am not sure.

Liber Call Me Al is hilarious! Thanks for that!

Bill

Posted: Sep 11, 2006 6:53pm
Dr Spektor, cats ARE the Good Guys!

The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats as Gods. Cats have never forgotten.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Sep 11, 2006 05:55PM)
Hey, they worshipped doggies too - like Anubis - so I still stick with the Hounds!
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 11, 2006 06:08PM)
Hey, dogs are neat, too.

Dogs think: This guy feeds me and takes good care of me. >He< must be a god!

Cats think: This guy feeds me and takes good care of me. >I< must be a god! :kitty:

Bill
Message: Posted by: Jerome Finley (Sep 20, 2006 04:41PM)
Hubbard, OTO? Really? That's great!
Message: Posted by: gaddy (Sep 22, 2006 10:51AM)
TT2,

It's true, the same one that Jack Parsons (the rocket scientist) and Kenneth Grant (the...um... occult guy?) were part of.
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 22, 2006 12:15PM)
Crowley, OTO, L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology, A:. A:., Kenneth Grant, Jack Parsons, JPL, NASA. Now that is an interesting combination!
There is a lot of history there.


Nal
Message: Posted by: Gotama (Sep 22, 2006 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-11 19:08, Bill Ligon wrote:
Hey, dogs are neat, too.

Dogs think: This guy feeds me and takes good care of me. >He< must be a god!

Cats think: This guy feeds me and takes good care of me. >I< must be a god! :kitty:

Bill
[/quote]

Bill, not quite correct. My dog is a Lhasa Apso - he definitely understands that he is God.

BTW, in several cultures, dogs and cats are good, very good (especially when cooked in a nice sauce).

Gotama
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (Sep 22, 2006 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-22 14:38, Gotama wrote:


Bill, not quite correct. My dog is a Lhasa Apso - he definitely understands that he is God.

BTW, in several cultures, dogs and cats are good, very good (especially when cooked in a nice sauce).

Gotama
[/quote]

OK! LOL!

Bill