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Topic: Brass Porper cups
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Sep 23, 2006 10:12PM)
How do these cups handle? Are they spun or CNC machined? In terms of collectibility, how would you rank them against Riser, Van Dokkum and Gary Animal (Gazzo) cups?

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Sep 23, 2006 10:22PM)
The cups are heavy as are all CNC cups. The quality is excellent as one would expect from Joe. As to comparing it with Riser et al, well, it's like comparing a Cezanne with a Matisse...each stands out in its own right. I have the copper set and love it. The case that comes with a set is beautiful as is the wand that Joe includes with each set.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 24, 2006 03:18AM)
They are CNC machined. The copper and brass ones are quite heavy. The stainless steel ones are a little lighter. They are nice sets.

He keeps threatening to run out of them. He was doing that three years ago. You can still get them.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Sep 24, 2006 09:13AM)
As a collector, one of the most attractive features of the Porper cups is the package: not only do you get the cups, but also a beautiful Porper wand and the custom-made wooden case that it all goes into. The cups are superbly made: CNC machined with a smooth black powdercoat interior. As far as handling is concerned, I find the cups a bit too heavy to work with for close-up tabletop magic - but that's just my personal opinion.

The Porper cups are certainly collectable. I'd be interested to know who buys them - whether their main attraction is to collectors or to working pros.
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Sep 24, 2006 05:13PM)
How heavy are the brass Porper cups? Height? Diameter? This would be helpful to know. Hope it's not too much of a bother.

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 24, 2006 06:02PM)
It is. It is FAR too much of a bother. However, it's a dirty job and somebody with a set of these cups has to do it. ;)

Seriously, the brass cups weigh 9.3 oz. each. They are well-balanced, though.
Message: Posted by: James Kernen (Sep 24, 2006 06:39PM)
The stats on my brass porpers are:

9.3oz, 9.1oz, and 9.2oz (I re-weighed them several times, even turned them upside down)....

The measurements are the same:
Inner mouth - just under 3 inches
Outer mouth - just over 3 1/8 inches
Outer height - just barely under 3 inches, ignoring the curve of the cup
Inner height - just over 2.75 inches
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 24, 2006 07:07PM)
I just grabbed the heaviest one in the box.
Message: Posted by: fortasse (Sep 24, 2006 11:00PM)
Bill and James : Thanks to you both!

Fortasse
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Sep 24, 2006 11:36PM)
You are most welcome.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Sep 25, 2006 03:46PM)
Go to http://www.porperoriginals.com
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Sep 25, 2006 05:15PM)
I am not an expert howerver I can tell you this cups are quite overprice unless they are much,much,much better quality than sherwood smooth cups.
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Sep 25, 2006 06:31PM)
I think that it is odd for them to be three different weights. If they are CNC's shouldn't they all be exactly the same?????
I too think they are way overpriced for what you get and what they are.
I used Porpers for a very short time and sold them ...I picked up the Sherwoods Brass and Copper and liked them much better.
The Porpers I got were purchased at a magic convention and sold that same weekend.
I have been doing Cups and Balls for over 25 years with metal cups.
I had no idea they were different weights, however, they just didn't feel right to me. I also know that a cups feel and workability is subjective and you should always try before you buy if at all possible.
I had the oppertunity to see some of the new R-N-T 2 cups recently and I must say that they are well made also. All felt that they were the same weight and very workable.

Later,
mobius
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 26, 2006 01:07AM)
I chose these for collecting, but use them as well. If you have rather small hands these may not be the workers you want. But they are worth every penny considering knowing the cost of the materials and the time it takes to CNC, Powerdercoat and Epoxy the cups. The last 2 steps mentioned can drive the cost of the cups up 3 times due to costs.

Weights can vary with CNC milling. Just because a block is 4x4 does not always mean it weighs the same as another, they're may be slight overstroking during the milling process, something that is not visible to the human eye, but can be felt in the weight or seen on a scale. In addition to overstroking a block, the desinty of the block may vary slightly.

I'm very pleased with the copper cups and the stainless, just need the brass and wood set to complete the collection....ah someday.

Jake
Message: Posted by: plungerman (Sep 26, 2006 10:47AM)
The copper cups are beautiful. I got a set but not with the box and wand. If I recall it was via Mr. P. Biro some how (thanks again). I went to the porper link he gave and was reminded just what they go for. I thought I imagined it. I'll have to save up just for a Porper paper bag to put them in.

They are definitely show pieces, not inteded for use on the street or bashing with non-wooden wands. Broader at the base than other cups that tall. If anyone has had the misfortune to drop one on the street perhaps he can tell us how well they hold up in real working conditions. I'll bet the steel ones hold up OK at that.
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Sep 26, 2006 11:11AM)
[i]I got a set but not with the box and wand[/i]

Hmmm...I was under the impression that each set of Porper Cups comes with the beautiful wood case to house the cups and a wand that's stored in it's own compartment within the case.
Message: Posted by: plungerman (Sep 26, 2006 11:16AM)
That's what I have been told since, but when offerred I did not know to ask about that. If there is an extra box drifting about let me know.
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Sep 26, 2006 12:19PM)
I wonder how much plungerman paid for just the cups,i just visit porper site and the wand it self it is $200.oo so you should saved 300 or 400 dollars
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 26, 2006 03:20PM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-25 18:16, pintorama wrote:
I am not an expert howerver I can tell you this cups are quite overprice unless they are much,much,much better quality than sherwood smooth cups.
[/quote]

What basis do you make your claim that they are overpriced? Just curious.

Jake
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Sep 26, 2006 05:42PM)
As I said before I am not expert but I know the price of some cups, I also know difert magic shops selling the same cups for a big diferent price,i also know the cnc milling proces and the solid block they use for each cup....lets take a look :
Pete Biro Galli Galli Cups. $255
Ring 'N Things II Paul Fox Mini $280
James Riser Traditional Cups. $285
Cellini Cups $295
Michael Kaminskas Limited Edition Cups. $300
Van Dokkum Standard Cups. $320.
JESMagic Squatty Cups. $325
Fohrman Cups: $330
Gazzo Street Cups by Gazzo & Knight. $350
Michael Lee Millennium Cups in Aluminum $350
Owen Magic Supreme Stainless Cups $365
jesmagic squatty cups $250
and the most beatufull cup in the market (for me ) sherwood smooth copper only $275 , however I understand the way the maket works
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 26, 2006 06:27PM)
Well you're incorrect in a lot of ways at assuming they are overpriced, one the cups you've compared them to are made by other crafters and do vary in price. No other vendors who sell Joe's cups vary in price, Joe is very strict about that, there is no price wars with Porper cups. Joe also includes the wand and the case with his sets.

If you REALLY understood the way the market works, you would not have made the comment that the cups are overpriced. Are you aware of what it takes to actualy make a simple thing such as a cup? Yet alone cups that are balanced, spun correctly so they stack without rocking? Not many know how much work goes into the Tooling alone to make the cups and while a lot say "oh CNC is all computerized" well that is true, but who sits down and designs the cup in the CAD program? And what looks good on the screen doesn't always end up looking the same on the CNC mill.

What people look at is the bottom line price that's all. Is that all you get? Whats so special? You're paying for craftmanship, knowledge and so on.

Cup prices have been discussed many times on the Café, there are threads in the archives, bottom line is know one knows but the manufaturer or the craftsman what it costs to produce for the public.

Why produce if costs are so high? Because we are PROUD and LOVE what we do. It's always been the same answer in the end.

Jake
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Sep 26, 2006 06:35PM)
By the way, how much does the rnt phoenix II set cost ?.
are you gonna sell them ? or tom frank ?
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 26, 2006 06:44PM)
http://www.rnt2.com/product.aspx?productno=217
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Sep 26, 2006 06:56PM)
Txs jake, I like those cups (and the price), I would like to see a picture of the copper ones
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Sep 26, 2006 07:08PM)
Hi those are the copper ones, at this time that is all we are producing.
Message: Posted by: plungerman (Sep 27, 2006 09:23AM)
The copper Porper cups cost me about the same as you see on the current web site. The case and wand were not mentioned or offerred. And by the way, that's how I end up getting most nice things, overpaying.

Thanks for the info Jake.
Message: Posted by: GeorgeG (Sep 27, 2006 11:34AM)
One additional factor in the prices of magic apparatus, whether it be cups or any other prop, is that these are generally produced in SMALL numbers. When you consider the work and tool investment, the profit at the end can not amount to much. Hence, like Jake stated, all this stuff is really a labor of love and I salute these people for their dedication. To me nothing of quality in magic is "overpriced"...just wished I had more money to spend.
Message: Posted by: Richard Evans (Sep 27, 2006 02:35PM)
Generally, you get what you pay for. Joe Porper's cups are beautifully made and presented - and are made in small numbers. You also know that they're going to be of the highest quality AND they also work!

It would be fairer to say that the Penguin cups are overpriced: mass-produced, poorly finished, sometimes they don't nest well - plus there's great variability so you don't know what you'll get for your $99. It's up to you if you think it's worth paying eight times that amount for the Porper set.

You're lucky (we're all lucky) that there are so many cups to choose from right now that you can pick whatever set suits you best in both price and design.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Nov 7, 2006 12:38AM)
Just got my hands on a set of Brass Porpers! I'm not much of a brass fan for working cups, but these are gems, just like the copper and stainless. Just waiting for the Cocobola cups to arrive next week and Joe's acreage in my display case is complete :)

Jake
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 7, 2006 08:39AM)
[quote]
On 2006-09-25 18:16, walid ahumada wrote:
I am not an expert howerver I can tell you this cups are quite overprice unless they are much,much,much better quality than sherwood smooth cups.
[/quote]

Walid:

You are right. You are not an expert. You have undoubtedly never seen these cups, so you don't know what the package includes. There is also a handmade, high quality wand, which unscrews in the middle for takedown. They come in a box that is milled to fit the cups and balls, as well as the wand. The design on the box is inlaid, not painted.

Some of the cups you are listing in your comparisons are not available at this time. For example, the Riser cups are not available. They are a short run item and are sold out almost as quickly as they are produced. Why don't you compare the price of the Porper cups to the price of the Jeff Busby CNC cups?

They are not for everyone, though.

Addendum:

I see where you got your prices. Let me explain something about cups and balls, and the use of sites like Doug Atkinson's Cups and Balls article. That site was updated over a year ago. Doug doesn't always do his homework. He was cutting and pasting prices from GKW. (God Knows Where). Note that he lists the Millenium cups at $500. You can't even find a set of these. He also lists the van Dokkum silver cups at $725. Those cups did not even exist until this year. I have the only set. They cost a heck of a lot more than $725. The CW cups haven't been produced for years. They will never be produced again. And his price for those is outrageously low.

Don't get your "expertise" by quoting crap you google. Learn from people who actually have the products you are bashing.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Nov 7, 2006 11:16AM)
What, out of curiosity, is the approximate time frame for making a set of cups? From the blank to ready for shipment. I want to put a price to how much it would [i]cost[/i] my company to make one. Just for !@#$ and giggles

I work with metal, but do not have any experience with spinning.

Unless one updates their price list daily, with the cost of steel, etc. rising as bizarrely as it has, you would probably be wrong in several weeks time even were you spot on today. Most folk cannot stockpile metal to last a year (Even though I'm sure many wish they had now), so the prices can hardly be expected to remain the same.

Seems like the recycling payout for copper is a little too close to the new sale price not too far in the past.

Good cups are expensive, perhaps for many, too expensive. But not overpriced. Unless you think the Skilled Craftsman who makes the cups does not deserve a paycheck.

The problem lies in people selling $100 worth of stuff for $50. Then people get the impression that it's only [i]worth[/i] $50. Just because you can get cups for under $100, does not mean good cups should retail for that.
Message: Posted by: BSutter (Nov 7, 2006 11:36AM)
Josh,
I can not answer your question. To get a time frame for spinning Cups I would email James Riser at: jriser@jamesriser.com

To get a time frame for CNC machining Cups I would Contact Auke van Dokkum at:
Address
Havelaar 37
8321 ZA URK
The Netherlands
Phone
+31 527 684 729
Fax
+31 527 690 057
Mobile
+31 653 55 11 59


Bill
Message: Posted by: walid ahumada (Nov 7, 2006 12:50PM)
[quote]
On 2006-11-07 09:39, Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-09-25 18:16, walid ahumada wrote:
I am not an expert howerver I can tell you this cups are quite overprice unless they are much,much,much better quality than sherwood smooth cups.
[/quote]

Walid:

You are right. You are not an expert. You have undoubtedly never seen these cups, so you don't know what the package includes. There is also a handmade, high quality wand, which unscrews in the middle for takedown. They come in a box that is milled to fit the cups and balls, as well as the wand. The design on the box is inlaid, not painted.

Some of the cups you are listing in your comparisons are not available at this time. For example, the Riser cups are not available. They are a short run item and are sold out almost as quickly as they are produced. Why don't you compare the price of the Porper cups to the price of the Jeff Busby CNC cups?

They are not for everyone, though.

Addendum:

I see where you got your prices. Let me explain something about cups and balls, and the use of sites like Doug Atkinson's Cups and Balls article. That site was updated over a year ago. Doug doesn't always do his homework. He was cutting and pasting prices from GKW. (God Knows Where). Note that he lists the Millenium cups at $500. You can't even find a set of these. He also lists the van Dokkum silver cups at $725. Those cups did not even exist until this year. I have the only set. They cost a heck of a lot more than $725. The CW cups haven't been produced for years. They will never be produced again. And his price for those is outrageously low.

Don't get your "expertise" by quoting crap you google. Learn from people who actually have the products you are bashing.
[/quote]
o.k. bill, I got you.......(relax)
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 7, 2006 12:53PM)
The timeframe for spinning one set of cups is almost the same as the timeframe for spinning a run of 25 sets. Part of it has to do with the annealing process. You spin a cup down to a certain point. Then you anneal it. While it is annealing, you spin another cup down to the same point. This is done until the annealing of the first piece is complete. Then you start spinning again until you reach the second annealing point. You can get an idea of the number of annealing points in the spinning of a cup by looking at my web site.

CNC machining doesn't require the annealing that spinning does. That's because the metal is being cut away rather than manipulated. CNC machining does not have the same adverse effects on a piece of metal that spinning has.

The one point where it all comes together is in the polishing process. There is very little that can be done to hurry that up.

The spun cups from MM are generally not annealed. Consequently, down the road, you will see cracks in the mouth beads.