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Topic: Offset m****t: in a chop cup: pro vs con
Message: Posted by: kerpa (Oct 19, 2006 10:36AM)
I am an amateur magish just starting on learning a chop cup routine. I am thinking of picking up a leather chop cup. So far, the two leather chop cups I've been able to locate (one is a dice stacking cup from theambitiouscard.com, the other from Tex Austin) have the m****et placed offset near a seam, I think to permit easy identification and to allow a demonstration of rolling the ball in and out of the cup).
As a beginner, I am leery of this - should I be? I worry that I will learn "offset" moves with an offset m****t that might appear unnatural (given my just getting started in this). Also, glimpsing at the seam reminds me of my efforts to avoid looking too much at a deck of cards when I do card effects.
Are there leather chop cups out there with the usual location for the m****t?
a/k/a Michael Miller
Chicago area
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Oct 19, 2006 11:54AM)

I can put the m*** anywhere you want.

There is no learning curve and there are no extra or different moves to learn.
You'd never know the difference unless you wanted to use the roll-in/roll-out functionality. If you choose to ignore it's location, just ignore it and go ahead with your routine. Same moves you're used to.

As far as looking, you don't have to worry about that either. You just "see" the seam as you pick it up. It's not like you have to hold it up to the light, rotate the cup around and squint.

I appreciate your concern but either way it's all a no brainer.

So pick your spot and let me know :)
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Oct 19, 2006 01:08PM)
On one side is better than in the center. It looks a lot more natural to show the ball inside the cup as it's resting against the side instead of being "stuck" to the center of the cup.

You can feel the seam instead of look at it, so all you really have to is pick up the cup and you're ready to go.

Like anything worthwhile it just takes some practice.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Oct 19, 2006 01:15PM)
You know, Dave, I never thought of that. Showing the ball in the cup.
I don't know why I didn't think of it. As a beginner I was always a bit worried that the spectator might see the ball dead center and suspect.

You da man!
Message: Posted by: Gary Dayton (Oct 19, 2006 04:04PM)
On 2006-10-19 14:08, Dave VanVranken wrote:
On one side is better than in the center. [/quote]

Absolutely! When it's offset, you can roll the chopped ball in and out of the cup or "hold" it -- you're in control.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 20, 2006 02:46AM)
The offset gafffus is one of the best ideas to come to the chop cup, for all the reasons mentioned above.
Message: Posted by: Gary Dayton (Oct 20, 2006 07:20AM)
Nice hat there, Bill. Does it come in other colors?
Message: Posted by: CJRichard (Oct 20, 2006 07:40AM)
Gary, I think Bill's also got an engraved Sherwood hat.
Message: Posted by: Gary Dayton (Oct 20, 2006 09:26AM)
Oh, CJ ... Look whose talking! Love that hat of yours!
Message: Posted by: kerpa (Oct 20, 2006 11:17AM)
Well, thanks everybody. I had such a fine PM discussion with Frank that I have gone ahead and ordered one of his dice stacking chop cups - offset. I am looking forward to working up a routine with that - not to mention a dice stacking routine.
So here's a follow up question regarding using the offset m****t - about timing. When showing the spectators the ball rolling in and out along the opposite side, do you flash it to the specs or do you display the roll as a slightly more prolonged demonstration?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Oct 20, 2006 12:00PM)
Michael, If I were doing that (and I don't even do it) do not think of it as "showing" the spectators anything. You might roll the ball in and then out as you talk to them but only in an off-handed way. Never draw attention to anything like that.

An example of this might be: to have the ball in the cup (loose) and tell the
spectators "This trick uses a cup..." Now you look into the cup itself and dump out the ball "... and a ball".

Another example: Start with the ball in the cup (loose) and pour it out onto the table and say.. "I found this under my sofa... it belongs to my cat."

If you're not quite sure just leave that part of the trick out until you decide to add it in. I do not even use this feature in my routine at all.
Message: Posted by: Gary Dayton (Oct 20, 2006 12:24PM)
I agree with Frank. I just put it in the cup and roll it out casually as I am talking (asking them to follow the ball). I do it only once in the routine, early on. There are several good chop cup routines available. You might take a look at Don Alan's -- it's classic. That routine is available in several of the on-line magic shops (including Frank's?) or at thinklikeaconjuror.com for around $15.00 or so. It was written by Ron Bauer. If you do a search on the Café for Don Alan chop cup, you'll see a lot of info, including a link to a video clip of him doing his chop cup routine (hopefully, this is still working). Stevens magic also has a DVD of Alan, which includes his chop cup routine, among other classic magic he did.

Have fun with this. I perform this regularly as a part of my close-up work, and it is one of the routines I always hear comments on after the performance. It is exceptionally strong.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Oct 20, 2006 12:49PM)
When doing any kind of cup and ball routine, avoid making a big deal out of any move. If you wish, you can let them look into the cup. You don't have to. It's all up to you.
Message: Posted by: Gary Dayton (Oct 20, 2006 02:54PM)
Here's the link to the clip of Don Alan performing the chop cup on the old "That's Incredible" TV show. You can readily see the strength of the routine.

Message: Posted by: Ruben Padilla (Oct 24, 2006 12:03AM)
Forgive my ignorance, but I can't play the downloaded video. Any suggestions on how I can play a Real Media file on a mac? Thanks.
Message: Posted by: kerpa (Oct 27, 2006 05:10PM)
I want to use this thread to publicly thank Frank for shipping me the offset m****t dice cup. This is one beautifully made prop! (When I told my teacher I was ordering from you, Frank, he told me - like everyone else - I made a very good choice.) I know I'm going to have a lot of fun with this and am going to switch over to this dice cup for the chop cup routine I'm working on.
Again, my thanks for a great prop, and great service.
a/k/a Michael Miller
Chicago area
Message: Posted by: Euangelion (Oct 28, 2006 09:09AM)
Although not done often an offset magent is really the only way any chopped cup should be made. I have converted several myself. It is far more effective for casual handling. Rollin, roll out, tip and dump, tip and hold, swirl the ball in the cup (being off center lets you do this), when held on center it is very hard to do.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 28, 2006 03:11PM)
If you want to roll a ball in and have it come out... use the ungimmicked ball.
Message: Posted by: rikbrooks (Oct 31, 2006 06:05AM)
Mr. Biro brought out a wonderful point. I find it more than passing strange that people will start their routines with the ungimmicked ball then it goes into the pocket never to be seen again. It's odd.

I have a routine that I do with my mini brass that uses two sets of chop cup balls. I use the ungimmicked balls a lot, swapping them out for the gimmicked. One of the kickers in the routine is that an ungimmicked ball is found in a spectator's pocket.

Think outside the box. Mr. Biro used to say that there ain't no rules - I think his English was better though.
Message: Posted by: Joe Howard (Oct 31, 2006 06:36AM)

If you go to real.com, and follow the links to the free realplayer (upper right on the page for OSX), you can download the application which will allow you view real media files.

If you are running OS9 or earlier, follow the link for previous Mac versions. ( right under the try superpass button)

Message: Posted by: Euangelion (Nov 1, 2006 06:58AM)
On 2006-10-28 16:11, Pete Biro wrote:
If you want to roll a ball in and have it come out... use the ungimmicked ball.

Not if you want to make the sound of the ball appear in the cup without revealing the ball yet.

My point is simply that an offset gaff offers options not available from the on center location.