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Topic: I got kicked out of the mall for doing magic!
Message: Posted by: expand your consciousness (Dec 22, 2006 07:10PM)
Today I did a 15-20 min. improptu magic show, just for the heck of it, in the open public at the mall. At first I got a decent sized group 20-30 people, and this old security guard told me to relocate in the mall to do my magic elsewhere and I did, and went where he told me to go. Well a few minutes later the same security person and another person who works for the mall had come over there and told me stop and leave, which in turn caused the crowd to boo them. I think this bothered these people because they began to take me to an office and get personal info and then have me escorted in their securty SUV to my vehicle, Wow! I performed here like a month or so ago and didn't have any problems. But this old man was becoming an pain and arguing and told me never to come back. I honestly didn't cause any problems and did everything they told me to do. Which tells me this old security gaurd took it personal. I am coming back regardless, maybe not to do magic but just to shop. This was a great opportunity because I got some recognition in a different area. I've never been kicked out of anything as far as I can remember, but this was exhilerating, I enjoyed it. And I will return to bring back the power of magic.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Dec 22, 2006 07:21PM)
Malls have rules and regulations. If you didn't attract such a crowd, it probably wouldn't have been a problem. The first time I tried to do magic in a mall well over a year ago I was asked to either stop or leave. The next time I went straight to mall services and got written permission to perform. The next time I went I actually got permission to perform AND film - so long as there were no store names ever shot in the film. A month later I got a booking from the mall, because my business card had gotten around from the original marketing director I had spoken to. Now I have a great relationship with the woman that runs all promotions and marketing at the mall! So if you handle it correctly it can be very beneficial. Just don't **** them off.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 22, 2006 07:40PM)
So because you can't do magic in THEIR mall you are exilerated?

The power of magic? Technically next time you return to do it, now it becomes a trespass.

Power of magic? When you do things like this think of how it reflects on ALL of us please.
Message: Posted by: expand your consciousness (Dec 23, 2006 12:28AM)
Well to be honest I really don't or have not seen many magicians that do improptu like performances in open surroundings for long periods of time without stopping or reseting. I had a rush when I was surrounded by at least 35-40 people doing magic in the surround, that is what I meant by exhilarating. I did things surrounded that had angle restrictions to them but I pulled them off. This is the way "I" feel magic should be presented, I thrive in this atmosphere. Of course I know now to ask for permission ahead of time. But they were kinda of harsh. And as for giving magicians a bad name I live in a small community and these people don't even see much live performances let alone a close up magician, and I really, really doubt my incident today is a bad reflection on ALL of us, please.
Message: Posted by: ToasterofDoom (Dec 23, 2006 11:48AM)
A mall is private property, so the security staff CAN kick you out for any reason. Perhaps you were distracting customers from shopping :)
Message: Posted by: expand your consciousness (Dec 23, 2006 12:36PM)
Well I really doubt I was disrespectful or unprofessional to anyone, let alone my craft, especially when I was performing away from the businesses and not in front of them. Plus I had done this prevoiusly without any conflict. Yes they have any right to do whatever they want, but they were excessive in their behavior. I carry common sense, and from the get go if they would have asked me to stop or leave I would have, but they didn't and just told me to move to a less congested area, and I did what they told me to do. I love magic, especially in unpredictable atmospheres, and I am ready for any consequences that may come with that. And yes I do now know to ask before performing. No I am not renegade, but I love public displays, and if other magicians think this was a bad reflection on magicians, I think you should twice about that.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 23, 2006 04:00PM)
Uh huh
Message: Posted by: majik (Dec 24, 2006 03:51PM)
Maybe the mgt.was afraid you would end up vanishing 30 to 40 paying customers. Now if you had been producing 100 dollar bill for the people to spend in the mall...you would have been left alone. The sad truth is that money is not the root of all evil, but, money is the root of all!!!!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 24, 2006 03:56PM)
OH gawd
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Dec 24, 2006 04:00PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-24 16:56, Dannydoyle wrote:
OH gawd
[/quote]

I second that!
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Dec 24, 2006 05:09PM)
The issue with the mall is liability ... if someone were to get hurt during your show, the mall would be the one getting sued. It is next to impossible to get any gig in a mall without liability insurance.

I doubt that this will have any negative effect for other magiciains that seek to work that mall ... if it does, then they just need better promo materials.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: munkywrench (Dec 24, 2006 05:43PM)
I know that the mall by my house (Inlet Square) for those in the know, could use a little excitement. It's alwasy boring when I go shopping there unless its bike week.
Message: Posted by: jakeg (Dec 24, 2006 06:12PM)
When I made my living doing magic it would really p*** me off when an amature would come in and give away the service that I was trying to sell in order to feed his ego. No matter how acomplished he was, I felt that it was setting the value on all magic performances.
I certainly can understand and respect busking and working for hat, but working for free, in my mind, is the same as making a charitable contribution to Microsoft. If someone wants to perform for free, I believe that they should do in in venues where it would do some good .... at a charitable institution. There are plenty around without cutting into someone elses living.
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Dec 25, 2006 10:35AM)
Why were you performing for free in a mall? Were you starving for attention?
Message: Posted by: donkeys and waffles (Dec 25, 2006 06:05PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-25 11:35, SoCalPro wrote:
Why were you performing for free in a mall? Were you starving for attention?
[/quote]

Maybe like he said (if you read his whole post) he lives in a very small town and wanted to get out and do something. Was your "starving for attention" post really necessary ? Your post suggests that you are insecure by picking on others in here. doesn't feel to good eh ? What ? You NEVER perform any magic for free ?

Ever run into some friends while out and they ask you to do something for them. You start out and next thing you know, there are 20 or 30 people standing around ? Probably not, you are probably too busy at home counting all of your money from all your gigs. Jez, some guys on here are wound too tight. Why not spend your time trying to get youtube losers from stopping all the magic exposure instead of worrying about his need for attention.

I for one would have loved to have been there to see you perform some stuff. don't let the haters stop you. Just check with the owners first and do your thing brother. I don't think you hurt any magicians or out reputations. It is great that you are comfortable performing for that many.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 25, 2006 06:16PM)
So 30 people is "performing for that many"? Lord you have some issues of your own.

Joe Joe hit the nail on the head when he said liability. Absolutly right.

JoeJoe, the only problem I have with these guys doing this for FREE as it were is this. After doing their free show, they want to show up at my shows, and be treated as if they are a peer.

Yes people must start somewhere. No doubt. BUT lets be particular about where exactly we do it.

Yes you go out with friends and suddenly are surrounded by people, it happens. BUT let me tell you this, I have NEVER just walked up unannounced and started working, and then took an attitude when I got told to leave.

See it is THAT attitude exactly that I feel reflects poorly on the whole magic scene.

Now lets be honest, the vast majority of guys doing these SUPRISE SHOWS, have little if any business doing magic in the first place. I am sure the guy who did this is an exception.
Message: Posted by: AaronTheMagician (Dec 25, 2006 07:08PM)
Without express written consent from the mall supervisors, performing at all in a mall is bad. It's just like a regular store; would you start doing stuff in JC Penny's or BestBuy? How about Hot Topic or Finish Line? Probably Not. Even if someone wants to see something, you'd make it a tiny quick effect...just to hush them up...and tell them you'll do more when you're outside.

Malls are the worst, though, if you're not supposed to be performing. See, in a mall, people are going there with a purpose in mind: they want something. Even if it's to see you perform, if you're not suppose to be doing it, you'll get fried. Malls want people to go uninterrupted through the stores and walking areas. Even the floor vendors (small kiosks in the aisles) have clauses in their contracts that tell them they can't ask the passersby to come to the booth. If you go on your own, you'll definitely get asked if you'd like to buy something...but notice how you never hear from those people unless you get too close. The mall protects its potential customers, at the cost of your availability within their doors.
Just plain and simple: don't perform in malls unless authorized. (Rule of thumb).
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Dec 25, 2006 09:41PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-25 19:05, donkeys and waffles wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-12-25 11:35, SoCalPro wrote:
Why were you performing for free in a mall? Were you starving for attention?
[/quote]

Maybe like he said (if you read his whole post) he lives in a very small town and wanted to get out and do something. Was your "starving for attention" post really necessary ? Your post suggests that you are insecure by picking on others in here. doesn't feel to good eh ? What ? You NEVER perform any magic for free ?

Ever run into some friends while out and they ask you to do something for them. You start out and next thing you know, there are 20 or 30 people standing around ? Probably not, you are probably too busy at home counting all of your money from all your gigs. Jez, some guys on here are wound too tight. Why not spend your time trying to get youtube losers from stopping all the magic exposure instead of worrying about his need for attention.

I for one would have loved to have been there to see you perform some stuff. don't let the haters stop you. Just check with the owners first and do your thing brother. I don't think you hurt any magicians or out reputations. It is great that you are comfortable performing for that many.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I don't have time to respond to your silly little post. Just like you said, I am too busy counting all of my money from all my gigs. You just hit the nail on the head. :rotf:

Ok, fine. Not gonna fight about this. I guess when you are as old as I am do it as often as I do, you really don't just go to a mall and start performing. I have never done this, not even when I was just starting out. I wasn't putting him down but I was just wanting to know WHY.
Message: Posted by: donkeys and waffles (Dec 26, 2006 02:45AM)
I do not wish to argue about anything as well. I just felt it was an attack when you ask was he "starving for attention". You must remember that all on here are not pros and will never be.

I am glad that you are so successful with your magic career, I wish you the best. I apologize for my negative post as I do not like them. Cheers.
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Dec 26, 2006 03:02AM)
No harm, no foul. HAPPY HOLIDAYS. :)
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Dec 26, 2006 06:07AM)
In addition to performing without permission as has been mentioned before, another possibility here is homeland and mall security. It's possible they didn't want large gatherings for security reasons. During the holidays, most malls increase their security both to prevent shoplifting and to thwart terrorism where large numbers of people gather. In the mall close to me, the police were there in full combat gear complete with assault rifles. Going over board? I think so but that's their job.

If you plan on doing this again, you might want to go and talk to mall management (not mall security) and have them explain what happened to you and why. Then you'll know what to do to prevent it from happening again.
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Dec 26, 2006 12:20PM)
[quote]
JoeJoe, the only problem I have with these guys doing this for FREE as it were is this. After doing their free show, they want to show up at my shows, and be treated as if they are a peer.
[/quote]

Every profession has people working for free ... I can call a friend who will come over and install a new tub, won't charge me a thing. Do plumbers get upset for this? I don't care if they do.

Do rock stars get upset because a guy is playing some tunes for his friends at a party? I wouldn't expect so.

So a lady cooks a birthday cake for a neighborhood party ... doesn't charge a thing to do it, does this make the bakery look bad? I somehow doubt it.

Yet, "professional" magicians want to jump up and down just because a kid is showing off at the mall ... next, lets bad mouth uncle lester - how dare him pull that kids nose off! He should get paid for that - but instead he goes off and gives the kid the quarter claiming it was in his ear! The nerve!

Being able to turn your hobby into a profession is a gift, and should not be taken for granted. And you should always remember that there are those out there who still view magic as a hobby, and they are not graced with the blessing of making a living doing something they love to do. It doesn't mean they are trying to hurt your business or show you up. Who knows, when they get out of school they might turn pro themselves ... they certainly have the drive to do so. Being hungry is a good thing.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: SpellbinderEntertainment (Dec 26, 2006 12:21PM)
To summarize, in a nutshell….

In any venue, especially a public venue:

-Check out the rules, policies, and laws

-Find who is in charge and GET permission

-Be aware you are not the center of the universe and your show may be subverting other activities

-Do not perform in a venue where you are taking business from another performer

-Respect the confines and guidelines of the venue

-Be good at what you do!

I personally think pulling out your magic in a public place like a mall or restaurant uninvited and unwelcome, is a little like dropping your pants in public...
but then guys do that too.

My two-cents,
Walt
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Dec 26, 2006 12:30PM)
Malls are not "public areas", they are private property which is open to the public. The distinction is important. They have the right to ask you to leave, if they feel that what you are doing in any way interferes with the Mall's commercial operation.
I'm sure you feel that you weren't interfering with business, but the point is, it's not your call. The mall is private property, and if the management doesn't want you there, you gotta go.
They may have legitimate reasons for forbidding you to perform. During the holidays especially, anything that causes a bottleneck to foot traffic is a problem in a mall. As mentioned above, liability is an issue as well (and probably their biggest concern)
The simplest, and wisest course, may be to just go to the mall office and tell them you do magic and would like permission to perform for free, to gain experience working for an audience. If they say yes, go for it. If they say no, go someplace else.
Wherever you live there is probably a public space, like a park or public square, where you can get permission to perform. Even there, though, you should check and find out if you need a permit of any kind.
Message: Posted by: munkywrench (Dec 27, 2006 10:51AM)
I did a show for a local VFW. The kids whose folks were off doing their thing in Iraq apreciated what I did for them. I do magic for fun and personal fufillment. I am sure I could make a little cabbage but, that's not what I am in it for. For someone to come down on me because we have different interests in the realm of magic is horrible. If you want to make a buck fine good luck...don't bag me because I don't want to. I am pretty sure that the "PRO" friends I have in magic look at me as peer because I work just as hard as they do in the sleight and presentation side of magic.
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Dec 27, 2006 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-27 11:51, munkywrench wrote:
I did a show for a local VFW. The kids whose folks were off doing their thing in Iraq apreciated what I did for them. I do magic for fun and personal fufillment. I am sure I could make a little cabbage but, that's not what I am in it for.
[/quote]
I'm glad to hear that, and it's probably the best solution yet for guys like us that rarely do professional gigs but still want to be able to do a show for a real audience. I see there's a forum here especially for this type of volunteer work, and I'm going to do some idea-shopping there.
Message: Posted by: expand your consciousness (Dec 27, 2006 01:22PM)
Wow! what a response. Ok, to clarify I was given permission from security to move from one point to another if I wanted to continue performing, which I did so, it was surprising that they kicked me out the way they did? I have performed magic like so in 5 different malls, 2 at this one, that's why I was taken back by the way I was let out, security aside, "starving for attention", "working for free"?
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I am an amauter, but a good one. I do performances like this as much as I can, Iv'e done this in large areas in Las Vegas, Seattle, San Francicso and Mexico, I believe this is the purest form to produce magic. In the open, in the surround having all eyes peer un your performance, I do this to practice being around different environments so I can succed in my demo. Maybe I am starving for attention, but I doubt it, plus I don't know anybody that can do multiple/mixed effects one after another, I know the people enjoyed it, and I loved it. But my demos only last 20-30min. And If anybody I need money to earn, but I love magic so much that I don't always see money as a must, so if I don't need it I'm not going to ask. Plus it would sound odd to ask for money while you are doing magic or after,especially if you don't really need it. Money doesn't rule my world, and is it so bad to donate your time for free.
Message: Posted by: BrianMillerMagic (Dec 27, 2006 01:34PM)
You are missing the point. It is a great thing to donate your time for free - go volunteer at a hospital, underpriveleged school, nursing home, etc. You do not have the right to public performance in a private area such as a mall. Either get permission or accept the consequences of your actions. There are plenty of places that would love to have you volunteer your time.

And as for not knowing anyone that can do multiple/mixed effects one after another, that's just silly. Try any professional here on the Café, as well as many good amateurs (such as you claim to be).

Sorry if that came off sounding harsh, but you really don't seem to be grasping the idea here.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 27, 2006 01:47PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-26 13:20, JoeJoe wrote:
[quote]
JoeJoe, the only problem I have with these guys doing this for FREE as it were is this. After doing their free show, they want to show up at my shows, and be treated as if they are a peer.
[/quote]

Every profession has people working for free ... I can call a friend who will come over and install a new tub, won't charge me a thing. Do plumbers get upset for this? I don't care if they do.

Do rock stars get upset because a guy is playing some tunes for his friends at a party? I wouldn't expect so.

So a lady cooks a birthday cake for a neighborhood party ... doesn't charge a thing to do it, does this make the bakery look bad? I somehow doubt it.

Yet, "professional" magicians want to jump up and down just because a kid is showing off at the mall ... next, lets bad mouth uncle lester - how dare him pull that kids nose off! He should get paid for that - but instead he goes off and gives the kid the quarter claiming it was in his ear! The nerve!

Being able to turn your hobby into a profession is a gift, and should not be taken for granted. And you should always remember that there are those out there who still view magic as a hobby, and they are not graced with the blessing of making a living doing something they love to do. It doesn't mean they are trying to hurt your business or show you up. Who knows, when they get out of school they might turn pro themselves ... they certainly have the drive to do so. Being hungry is a good thing.

-JoeJoe

[/quote]

I love the way you ignore the most important part of my post. I don't care if he does the free stuff, fine. BUT after playing a few songs for free at a party, does that guy show up and talk guitar riffs with someone doing a professional show? Don't think so.
Message: Posted by: the levitator (Dec 27, 2006 04:24PM)
Unfortunately Danny, that has happened to me more times than I care to count. I've been performing as a drummer and vocalist for 17 years and I never cease to run into "Karaoke Bar Heroes" that want to "talk shop". It's irritating on one level, when you have put so much of your life into something to be the best you can be and someone just saunters drunk up to a microphone and publicly embarasses themselves for free and call themselves musicians. Open jams are even worse, but at least you know what you are getting into if you go to one. But, on the other hand, people have to start somewhere, and I ended up picking up a lot of drum students from beginners just starting out. Many people don't understand the difference of performing and giving a performance. It's easy to jump up and sing a few of your favorite songs. In my last band, Baskitcase, I sang 42 songs a night, sometimes doing 3 nights in a row. It's very similar to magic. Knowing a few tricks and performing them well is one thing. Crafting an hour of entertainment with scripted dialogue, planned pauses, music, blocking, choreography, lighting changes, and pyrotechnics that people will pay money to see is a totally different animal.

I think this "phenomenon" is pretty prevalent in most artistic circles. I think it's our job as professionals to try and nudge people in the right direction without crushing their hopes and aspirations.

Danny has a good point though. Just because someone is a hobbyist doesn't mean they shouldn't try to be as professional as possible when performing in public. And speaking as someone who feeds his daughter with the money he earns as an entertainer, I wouldn't be too thrilled if I walked into my mall and saw someone performing shows for free. Kudos to getting out there and performing though. If you were able to get a nice crowd who seemed to like your magic, just go the next step and go through the right channels. Heck, they might even hire you and pay you the next time around! Please don't take offense to anything I've said, as I am not trying in any way to insult you or make you mad. I'm just trying, like others here, to encourage you and just give you a nudge in the right direction so that you can enjoy your craft and put your best foot forward at the same time. :D
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Dec 27, 2006 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-27 17:24, the levitator wrote:

I think this "phenomenon" is pretty prevalent in most artistic circles. I think it's our job as professionals to try and nudge people in the right direction without crushing their hopes and aspirations.
[/quote]

I stopped doing wedding photography for a number of reasons I wont go into here, but one of my pet peeves was, when I was doing the formal poses of the bride, groom and wedding party, I'd get my shots set up and there would be a guest who showed up with his own camera who would be shooting my setups. One guy actually walked up and started rearranging my group shots! "Best man, move to the right and crouch down, Maid of Honor, move right"
Trust me, that guy got a "nudge" in the right direction!
Message: Posted by: jakeg (Dec 27, 2006 06:01PM)
I have no argument with anyone who wants to do magic for friends, family or for a good cause. But going into a mall that has mega promotional bucks to spend and doing free shows? Why hire a magician when we can get one for free? There is definately a place for free shows, and there is a heading on this forum that covers the subject. If you're going to give it away, do it for a charitable venue where it will do some good. Malls give nothing away. Every promotion that they have is designed for one thing, to create traffic. For do nothing for altruistic reasons.
Just to answer DSach...., I had a guy at a wedding tell me that he was going to shoot my formals so that he can give them to the bride and groom and they wouldn't have to buy them .... Same thing, right?
Message: Posted by: DStachowiak (Dec 27, 2006 08:38PM)
Exactly what I'm talking about Jake
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Dec 27, 2006 10:16PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-26 13:20, JoeJoe wrote:
[quote]
JoeJoe, the only problem I have with these guys doing this for FREE as it were is this. After doing their free show, they want to show up at my shows, and be treated as if they are a peer.
[/quote]

Every profession has people working for free ... I can call a friend who will come over and install a new tub, won't charge me a thing. Do plumbers get upset for this? I don't care if they do.

-JoeJoe

[/quote]

I remember a local story about the gymnasium of a local school which needed painting. The parents of the students got together, donated paint and time and painted the gym. The paper ran a story about it and the local painters union wrote a letter tot he paper about how upset they were that the gym was painted without union help. One of the parents wrote back and said they hadn't been able to afford union help, if they'd <had> to have union painters, the gym would not have been painted. The union representative wrote back that in that case, it would have been better if the gym had remained unpainted!
Message: Posted by: jakeg (Dec 28, 2006 06:46AM)
You hit the nail right on the head: The school couldn't afford it ... we should be performing at places that would otherwise 'go unpainted' because they couldn't
afford it. A mall is a commercial enterprise, not a charitable organization. I know unions and industries that fund charities that would otherwise go begging. (St Jude's Hospital, for one, is either entirely or partially funded by the entertainment industry.)
I did shows in upwards of 30 state and locally run schools and hospitals in Pennsylvania and West Virginia every year, some more than once. The local chamber of commerce would suggest which and set them up for me. That was while I was earning a living doing magic, and doing shows on a steady basis. I knew pro ball players who visited Children's Hospital in Pittsburgh once a week when they played in town, but would never consider working for free for a commercial enterprise. Lots of people do it and it's admirable. All that I'm suggesting is that if you want to work for free, do it where it will do some good, not somewhere that has huge promotional budgets.
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Dec 28, 2006 11:30AM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-27 14:47, Dannydoyle wrote:
I love the way you ignore the most important part of my post. I don't care if he does the free stuff, fine. BUT after playing a few songs for free at a party, does that guy show up and talk guitar riffs with someone doing a professional show? Don't think so.
[/quote]

I did answer your question, it just didn't get past your superiority complex.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Dec 28, 2006 11:32AM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-28 07:46, jakeg wrote:
You hit the nail right on the head: The school couldn't afford it ... we should be performing at places that would otherwise 'go unpainted' because they couldn't
afford it.
[/quote]

You could look at it the other way around too ... as in, the aspiring magician would go "unpainted" otherwise.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: SpellbinderEntertainment (Dec 28, 2006 12:41PM)
OK,
-what this guy seems to want is to hear:

1) you are a good performer with lots of experience even though you don’t care about money.

2) you poor dude, they were sooooo mean, how great you hone your magic by doing shows uninvited in malls.

And he seems pretty much closed to any other response.

-In the real world:

1) there are proper ways to perform, and actually do good, on a volunteer basis, without taking work away from magicians who make their living by performing.

2) there are proper ways to go about gaining official permissions to perform and be invited to perform, without annoying mall managers and security professionals.

There are some totally self-absorbed performers, in every craft,
who will do what they do, no matter what policy, laws, or even etiquette dictate.

In my opinion, we are wasting time by not just agreeing with this guy and stroking his ego.

Magically,
Walt
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 28, 2006 01:45PM)
It will save us some time won't it Walt?

God I hope that wasn't a superiority complex you exibited.
Message: Posted by: Powers of the Mime (Dec 28, 2006 01:57PM)
I got kicked out of a mall for skateboarding. Big deal.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 28, 2006 02:05PM)
Actually it is kind of a parallel if you think of it.
Message: Posted by: majik (Dec 29, 2006 10:24AM)
It maybe the best thing. I have not done buisness in a mall in the last 15 years. I hate malls and will not use them. But look at the bright side since the mall evicted you, you can now do real street magic.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Dec 30, 2006 09:56AM)
I think his main complaint is that they asked him to move which he did and then they told him to leave. If they didn't want him performing, and that's certainly their right, they should have told him to stop in the first place.

As far as the performing free thing is concerned. I hardly think he was drawing any significant crowd the way he would if the mall had actually hired him and promoted a magic show. Furthermore, apparently the mall didn't feel they were getting any "free" service since they asked him to stop.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 2, 2007 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2006-12-25 19:16, Dannydoyle wrote:...<- snip ->...After doing their free show, they want to show up at my shows, and be treated as if they are a peer...<- snip ->...I don't care if he does the free stuff, fine. BUT after playing a few songs for free at a party, does that guy show up and talk guitar riffs with someone doing a professional show? Don't think so...[/quote]

Ha ha! Well Danny, I'm not a PRO (obviously...Ha!)...however I HAVE done magic for money quite a few years ago...(Semi-pro?)...

So what you're saying is, if I come to one of your shows and want to talk "shop" with you, you're going to snub me? I mean I've done more free shows than I can count...and that makes a PRO "off limits" to amateurs? Gee...I hope not...I'd be very disappointed.

Magic in the Mall? In my opinion...bad idea. For all the reasons stated above.

Doug
Message: Posted by: expand your consciousness (Jan 4, 2007 10:58PM)
Allow me to end my topic on a great note, and be more specific on the incident and answer certain statements, "feeding my ego","working for free".
THE MALL MANAGEMENT APOLOGIZED TO ME FOR KICKING ME OUT AND MADE A MISTAKE!
I was always in the right when I said these things, I don't think people read my post clear enough.
I don't think I was clear enough becuase I recieved a lot of backlash for doing this. First of all I don't perform for free 90% of the time, and I like to do impromptu performances, and this was my second performance in the that same mall, again security asked me to move if I wanted to continue, in essence they gave me permission. And agian, I truly doubt that my performance would really **** another magician off, seriously. If I was to see another magician perform I could appreciate it and not get mad at the individual, that wouldn't make sense. And if that person chose to work for money or free wouldn't that be their decision? Really. And as for stroking me ego, well I think the person who wrote that is the only one who is stroking my ego, not everyone else reading this. This topic went into a different direction I just wish people would have read what I wrote more clearly. As for working for free, I doubt I will ever perform in a mall again in general, and this incident and response has made me consider giving my time to charitable causes, will I again be bad guy for doing that? I hope not.
But I do appreciate your criticisms, criticism is good it helps spot weak points in your game.
I hope I was clear enough this time. And to all magicians around the world, never stop doing what you love, never accept criticism but deal with it and become the best and what you do.
Happy New Year to one and all.
Message: Posted by: MagicSanta (Jan 4, 2007 11:48PM)
Hi. You should learn to accept criticism, listening to it could change your direction to a better one. As for the mall issue that is wonderful they apologized to you, next time you perform unscheduled (impromptu? Not the correct term) they have every right to move you off the property. You see, that guard was trying to be helpful, guards do not run the show and his second appearance was his following instructions. I don't know what type of magic you do but you may want to see if the mall wants to hire you. I can tell you this, if I showed up at a mall in my Santa outfit and wasn't their Santa I'd be asked to leave and do so gracefully, then again I wouldn't go in the first place.
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Jan 5, 2007 10:56AM)
Prince came to my University and gave a free concert! Elton John goes to small clubs to sing new songs to see how people react to them. Learning is a lifetime experience. Once saw a kid ask Mick Jagger how he feels about other people singing his songs, and his reaction was that he was glad. more publicity for him. What do Rock Stars do with their time? Who knows! In my lifetime, I have seen rock stars perform free, and don't mind. Money is not everything!

I hear the top magicians perform the same stuff for years, so I wonder if we small time magicians just might be learning more than what they know? If they stay with the same stuff how do they learn the new stuff. One thing they do is have workshops with students. If they spot a student with real talent, they use them for their knowledge. Same as college professors. They are the ones that can't go to malls, because that would probably generate a huge mob that they don't want. Take a closer look at some of your Magic DVD's they film their stuff while performing on the streets FREEE, but charge us to buy the DVD's.

Going to the mall can be a learning experience. I could careless about the Mall's rules, even if it is private property. I like to see people smile. If I have problem running into a Mall security, then I will use some common sense and move on (no big deal). Also, I need to know what works and does not work, going to the mall is just one of many places where there are people. I been thrown out of a movie theatre for throwing water at a unseen police officer. This was at a Rocky Horror Picture show, way back in the late 70's. No big deal. Live your life as fun as possible. If you are learning something, then good for you. How you learn is not important, what you learn is important. If you are making money goody for you.

I have never drawn a crowd of people, maye one day. It must have been fun.
Message: Posted by: Ethan the emazing (Jan 16, 2007 10:58AM)
One time my friend was performing a card trick in a mall and while performing he knelt down, and couple min. later an officer came up to him and told him he had to stand up. He said he could keep performing but had to stand up, or leave.

Whats up with that?

Ethan the Emazing
Message: Posted by: Michael Taggert (Jan 16, 2007 08:46PM)
Ethan that relates back to street gamblers and the previous posts about homelnad security. don't ask for an explanation just accept what the rent-a-cop says and do your best to comply.

I have stayed out of this one on purpose but here goes. Sorry guys Walt is correct. Get PERMISSION from the Mall Before you pop up and do the show. the same goes for any street performers anywhere. you may find that if you are a working street pro, that your area will magically be protected and your pitch safe from intruders. but I digress, there has been miles of threads written on free vs paid performances. as a working pro I do not have a problem with a young performer wotking for free or little pay. the VFW show mentioned by monkeywrenh is a prime example of when to do a Free show. I would have done the same thing.
The bottom line is that many people think the Mall is a public place and the mall would like you to think so Untill they get a complaint. then they are a private property with their own private security force. Again get their permission to perform. find out what their rules are and follow them. It is best to get them in writting and keep a copy on hand so that when Barney Fife tells you you have to leave and you ask him what his justification is, you can pull out your agreement to say where is it written that I can't kneel while performing? Be Smart and like any good magician one step ahead of the crowd.
for my money however I would prefer a crowded park on a sunny afternoon.
Message: Posted by: dxsare (Jan 17, 2007 01:06AM)
I think a lot of people are missing the point. Another thing, there are a lot more hobbist than pros working, and even on this Café, there are a lot more hobbist than pros. This isn't about the "mall" post. It's about all the flame. A professional getting upset because some hobbist is performing magic for people?? Crazy. What's wrong with someone getting a little practice in?? Would everybody be so upset if he were on the street and showed a small group some tricks out of the blue?? MAYBE if there was a busker right around the corner.. but the truth is there isn't a magician on every corner.... MOST people have NEVER seen a live magician. I see a lot of people's egos get out of control on this forum.. actually on almost any forum. We all really need chill out with the flame. Critism is fine and very helpful. Being rude and disrespectful in a somewhat athoritive way is not. I give all the respect in the world to the pros.. but after all... the more people exposed to magic, the more it will help you, no?? I'm not starting a fight with anyone. I think we all need to think a little more about how we post, and how we treat other people in general. I just had to get that out.

Stevie D
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Jan 17, 2007 11:25AM)
Well said Stevie ... I'm glad somebody here gets it.

Next we will be hearing comedians complain that some guy is trying to be funny at the waffle house. A little perspective please.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: Phil Thomas (Jan 24, 2007 01:28AM)
I agree with Stevie and JoeJoe. I've been off this forum for quite some time due to so called "professionals" bashing the amateur. That's not a very "professional" way to act, people. In small towns where I live, there are NO professional magicians in my area at all...well there is one, but he has since retired from the craft due to arthritic hands and can no longer perform. Anyways, what's the big deal if the guy performs for free? I do it all the time. Am I taking money out of your pockets and food off of your tables by doing this? I think not. Please remember the slogan of the Café. "Magicians Helping Magicians". Criticism is fine and most needed, but when it turns into belittling others and looking down your nose at them, then that's when I have a problem and that's another reason why I have been silent for so long around here.

WHEW! I'm done venting now. I've thrown in my 2 cents. I'm off to perform in a port-a-potty. :bg:
Message: Posted by: Laszlo Csizmadi (Jan 24, 2007 03:38AM)
Ok guys here are my idea for that who wants to perform in the mall but that is needs a little extra work. Go down to the mall and find the person who gives permission selling staff on table. (Here where I live there are some tables in the mall where people selling books, calendars etc). Now ask him or her that is there any chance they will give you permission. If they say yes then go down to your local magic shop and talk to the owner and tell him about your plan. Explain to him that you love doing magic but you can perform only if you buy one spot and sell magic staff. The owner will pay the table fee for the mall. You took magic staff to the mall and sell them while you performing. The owner might pay you either a certain percentage for your work. Or you can open your own small business and do the whole thing for yourself.

Best

Las
Message: Posted by: Hank H (Jan 24, 2007 08:59AM)
[quote]
I've never been kicked out of anything as far as I can remember, but this was exhilerating, I enjoyed it. [/quote]

If you thought that was fun I suggest you take up Blackjack and Card Counting. I've been kicked out dozens of times. Sometimes more than once on the same trip.
Message: Posted by: Yellowjacket (Jan 25, 2007 09:17PM)
Ok…here I go…

In defense of Danny Doyle and Walt

I am a professional that makes my living performing.

I have many amateur friends that help me in becoming better.

There are many amateurs that respect the art and contribute greatly.

However, most of my problems have been the result of the other amateurs. Those that as Danny Doyle stated, have learned a few tricks and now think they are my peer. Sorry, it is not a snub thing but simply I do not have time to hear how some guy who has just learned how to do a French drop tell me how to improve my show. I have spent years seriously studying my art. I have consulted with other experts in the field, some of them amateurs. How does some guy who walks around doing a couple of card tricks suddenly become my peer? He doesn’t.

I had a show about a year ago, where during the intermission, an amateur was doing card tricks in the lobby and explaining how the tricks in my show worked. He seemed surprised when one of my staff asked him in so many words to shut-up. After the show he tried to come back stage and was offended that I did not treat him as a fellow professional magician.

There is a place and time to perform magic or any other art form. I would not just show up to the mall and beginning jamming on my guitar. There are some social rules.

Free shows or doing magic for free? Frankly it has no impact on me. If some business is happy to get someone to perform magic for free for them so they do not have to pay, they don’t want a professional in the first place. If you do not understand that comment then you do not understand business.

YellowJacket
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Jan 25, 2007 11:12PM)
I was outside a Circle-K one night way back when in Tucson Az. I had gathered a small crowd and was performing some magic, when all of a sudden the place was surrouned by cops, half the crowd took off running...I was one of 'em, because I had no idea what was going on and I may've had warrants. One just never knows sometimes- after all I was a grifter from out of state...kinda like MARK LEWIS, but not as honest or nice.

The next day I went back to the Circle-K to buy some smokes and the clerk behind the counter told me the cops came because they thought there was a gang fight going on, this was due to the crowd I gathered, I love magic!

A week or so later I went back to the same store for a burrito and a soda pop, I had the munchies ya know and what do you think happens? As soon as I walk out of the store the place is surrounded by cops,there was even a police helicopter on the scene!!!

I calmly walked inbetween the cop cars as they pulled up to the convience store, I acted like nothing was going on (remember I had no idea if I had warrants or not) the sound was incredible, there was a chopper in the air, sirens going off everywhere due to the amount of police cars pulling up and me...just wading thru it all.

I ran across I think a four lane road on the street called 'Golf Links' in Tuscon Az. Cops were everywhere, they kept yelling at me, but I acted as though I had no idea they were.

And then I was tackeled, taken down man!!! I lost my drink, my burrito and my high. Come to find out just minutes before I went into the store it was robbed and the cops thought the robber was me!

What an experience!

johnny
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Jan 26, 2007 02:50AM)
Hehe ... glad to know I'm not the only one here that has performed in front of a Circle-K!

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: SoCalPro (Jan 26, 2007 10:54AM)
Johnny....
Find another convenience store man!!!!! :rotf:
Message: Posted by: expand your consciousness (Jan 27, 2007 12:52PM)
Thank you for all of your responses, I think people started to understand the point of my topic, now I started doing some magic at the college that I'm in now, and yes with permission, but nothing crazy has happened yet.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 29, 2007 03:45PM)
[quote]
On 2007-01-25 22:17, Yellowjacket wrote:
Ok…here I go…

In defense of Danny Doyle and Walt

I am a professional that makes my living performing.

I have many amateur friends that help me in becoming better.

There are many amateurs that respect the art and contribute greatly.

However, most of my problems have been the result of the other amateurs. Those that as Danny Doyle stated, have learned a few tricks and now think they are my peer. Sorry, it is not a snub thing but simply I do not have time to hear how some guy who has just learned how to do a French drop tell me how to improve my show. I have spent years seriously studying my art. I have consulted with other experts in the field, some of them amateurs. How does some guy who walks around doing a couple of card tricks suddenly become my peer? He doesn’t.

I had a show about a year ago, where during the intermission, an amateur was doing card tricks in the lobby and explaining how the tricks in my show worked. He seemed surprised when one of my staff asked him in so many words to shut-up. After the show he tried to come back stage and was offended that I did not treat him as a fellow professional magician.

There is a place and time to perform magic or any other art form. I would not just show up to the mall and beginning jamming on my guitar. There are some social rules.

Free shows or doing magic for free? Frankly it has no impact on me. If some business is happy to get someone to perform magic for free for them so they do not have to pay, they don’t want a professional in the first place. If you do not understand that comment then you do not understand business.

YellowJacket

[/quote]

Pretty much the point I am making. Not snobbery, not superiority, but reality of situations as they exist.
Message: Posted by: Andy the cardician (Jan 30, 2007 12:42AM)
Johnny . . great story.
Did the cops buy you a new soda afterwards?
Message: Posted by: johnnymystic (Jan 30, 2007 06:56AM)
Hell no, I was just thankful to be let go, it was quite the expereince! :)

johnny