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Topic: I want to learn bizarre magic... any good pointers
Message: Posted by: sleightofand (May 16, 2007 04:06AM)
I would love to take the darker side of magic. has any one got good advice on books, dvds or effects that I could have a look at, thanks in advance
andy
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 16, 2007 04:53AM)
If you enter Bizarre Magic into a search engine you will find quite a few interesting links which will give you many pointers. Searching in this forum will probably answer most questions you have too.

There are lots of reviews of books and effects here and those are bound to give you clues as to the sort of effects that fit in with your character. That being said, it's probably a good idea, after some investigating, to decide on a character because this is what you will work from. It needs to be someone you can easily 'be' and not a great leap from your natural self (unless you are a superb character actor but then, why make it hard on yourself?)

This being said, there are many here who are far more adept than I at this.

Ian
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 16, 2007 12:41PM)
Someone else recently asked this here, maybe two weeks ago.

My first piece of advice is.. learn to use the search feature well ! :P
Message: Posted by: sleightofand (May 16, 2007 01:19PM)
Yeah sorry, have seen that !!! you guys truly are thought readers !!! lol xx
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 16, 2007 01:33PM)
Its an FBI secret operation--theyre waiting for one of us to tell them how to rob a grave and get the REAL secrets there....but I aint sayin nuttin.....
Message: Posted by: chmara (May 16, 2007 02:45PM)
1. Be yourself.

2. Sleep until daylight fades

3. Hang frm the deiling a lot -- upside down is good.

4. Learn to take as well as live a good dark joke.
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 16, 2007 02:51PM)
Gregg, I'm stuck on number 3. I can't find a deiling to hang from! ;)

(This iss frum someon who never makes a typo).

Bill (Seriously, I got a kick out of your list).
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 16, 2007 04:43PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-16 14:33, Gede Nibo wrote:
Its an FBI secret operation--theyre waiting for one of us to tell them how to rob a grave and get the REAL secrets there....but I aint sayin nuttin.....
[/quote]

Yes, that IS the secret - the magic is all nothing more than a distraction, to keep prying eyes away whilst we pilfer graves..

My advice to bizarre newbs: trade in your top hat for a shovel.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 16, 2007 05:16PM)
Haha Mystcian 'member that night when yu were holding the latern for me and you almost fell in the gra....nevermind......
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 16, 2007 05:21PM)
I laugh so much here, I'm having trouble keeping up the evil mien demanded by my sinister reputation. There is something in that that, if I could only grasp it, I'd be a real dyed in the wool magus by breakfast.

Ian
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 16, 2007 07:43PM)
I remember that night baba, and as I recall it, you hit him with a shovel, and said, "No sence leaving a perfectly good grave empty".

Myst, HINT, when you're out with Baba, wear something to keep that eye in the back of your head uncovered. It'll save a lot of clawing out.
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 16, 2007 08:41PM)
Well, I'd be hard pressed to argue with his logic, it [i]was [/i]a perfectly good but empty grave. It would've been a waste.
And- he was just a little distressed because he was under the impression he was going to hit the jackpot that night.

So, that was YOU dressed as an ugly fat widow ? Drag doesn't really suit you, man. Or wear a heavier veil - I thought the beard was sorta suspicious, now that I think about it..
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 16, 2007 11:02PM)
Oh, he was the GREASY, fat and ugly widow? No, wait, that was another place and another time.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 16, 2007 11:13PM)
Sleightofand, the best advice I can give is:

1) Read lots of books, including but not limited to bizarre magic books.

2) Go to church every Sunday or Temple every Saturday. (I can't believe I really said that!)

3) Meditate.

4) Avoid eating meat.

5) Chew Ex-Lax.

;) Bill
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 16, 2007 11:23PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-17 00:13, Bill Ligon wrote:
Sleightofand, the best advice I can give is:

1) Read lots of books, including but not limited to bizarre magic books.
[/quote]
But mostly bizarre books. Especially in the beginning, it'll give you a reference for what it's like. But pleeeease, don't be a "patter" memorizer. One other thing - feel free to change, modify, alter, substitute, and butcher bizarre routines all you want - in fact, it's encouraged. Be Unique and Original as possible. (but don't stray too far from the trademark skulls and tarot cards ! lol ! just kidding)

[quote]
2) Go to church every Sunday or Temple every Saturday. (I can't believe I really said that!)
[/quote]
To finish your sentence properly : "- for a good laugh". :devilish:

[quote]
3) Meditate.
[/quote]
Ohhhmmmmm.. bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton bellybutton

[b]What [/b]?!?

[quote]
4) Avoid eating meat.

5) Chew Ex-Lax.
;) Bill
[/quote]

Bill, again, you forgot a word or two.
It should read, "Avoid eating [i]well-cooked[/i] meat".
The proper way to consume flesh is rare, or perferrably, tar tar. Or hell, just raw. Still breathing/ moo-ing/ screaming even.

In which case, the Ex-Lax might just come in handy.
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 16, 2007 11:31PM)
Bill,
I must take offense to your comments, Who you calling a widow! I'm a divorcee.
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 17, 2007 12:30AM)
Hey, that was Mystician who called you a widow. You know, the guy that was telling me I don't finish my sentences properly. HE called you a widow first, I swear! Not me! It was HIM! It was HIM! Not me! Not me! MYSTICIAN said it first!
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 17, 2007 12:45AM)
IAM THE WIDOW'S SON.......
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 17, 2007 03:26AM)
I think you bumped your head when you fell through the window son.
Message: Posted by: Black Hart (May 17, 2007 07:51AM)
Hello Andy

This is one of those questions that begs the answer, "If you have to ask then you aren't ready!"

Seriously though, those of us interested in the genre that is called 'Bizarre Magic' came to it in many ways. For example I began to develop my 'bizarre' act before I even knew that the genre existed. In many ways I think that it helped as I found my own style and did not have anyone to copy at that delicate development stage.

Next I would like to say that so called bizarre magic is not a religion or faith, it is merely a performing style.

There are those who like to read about it and to write stories and to concentrate on their own 'in their own mind' performances. There are those who actualy perform for their own inner circle of friends. Thre are even those who perform this style of presentation for money!

However please take two warnings about continuing along this performing path.

WARNING 1: The vast majority of presentations and ideas for perfomances in this gentre are not commercial effects and have indeed never been performed - they are mere ideas and fancies.

WARNING 2: Once you have started to take an interest in theis genre of performance it is very addictive and you will find yourself diging amongst the dusty shelves of second-hand shops,obscure retail stores and antique shops.

However it is possible to find commercial effects and it is possible to get paid to perform in this genre. Many performers find that to combine their performance of 'bizarre magic' with psychic readings makes a good combination.

Good luck Andy, enjoy your journey.

Keith Hart
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 17, 2007 08:59AM)
If you look at a veve you will see that many houngans were widow's sons.

Ian
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 17, 2007 11:25AM)
Sheesh, Egregor, that's W I D O W' S son.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 17, 2007 11:47AM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-17 09:59, billyboy1957 wrote:
If you look at a veve you will see that many houngans were widow's sons.

Ian
[/quote]

IN-deed frater. but how did you know this secret??? Bawon stole his top hat and overcoat from a Lodge. Houngans use certain tokens, signs, grips etc. etc. the Ounfour (temple) like the G. Lodge, is designed after SOL-OM-ON's temple....

bless.

and touchee,Blackheart Bizarre magic IS a faith, if not my religion. and I disagree when you subject that most bizarre magick is but a pipe dream, never or rarely performed. I think youre stuck in the 60's and 70's when you charge bizzare magick thus, with authors like andruzzi, cameron etc. But do you not perform the magick you write? doth not our beloved Curator, Kotah, Fraughton, Hilford, Montier,Caleb, not to mentionm my humble self? in-deed, they, we do. so, I disagreee with the charge that muchof what is writ' is not performed. again, perhaps this was the case in the tomes of old, but simply not true with these master writers of today
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 17, 2007 12:43PM)
Can I just confirm that I have been paid for performing some of Keith Hart's effect.
Mind you, I've also been asked to leave a few times too...
And I thought christianity was all about forgiveness?
WWJD? A better trick, probably.
Message: Posted by: The Curator (May 17, 2007 12:45PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-16 05:06, sleightofand wrote:
I would love to take the darker side of magic. has any one got good advice on books, dvds or effects that I could have a look at, thanks in advance
andy
[/quote]

[img]http://www.hereses.info/illustrations/bible.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 17, 2007 01:09PM)
Baba Gede,

As you know, there is contact between traditions amongst people who respect each other's workings, and gaps in knowledge can be filled in by seeing how another way handles this. Over the years I have been pleased to be invited to all sorts of strange rites; and a good friend trained in Obeah in Jamaica worked with me for a while quite a few years ago and likened me to the one in whose presence one must beware of whistling, because everyone I touched with my rattle was ridden at that point (unbeknownst to me because I was away with the fairies at the time - so to speak). Loki (the tricky one of colder climes) can be a dodgy entity.

Ian
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 17, 2007 03:02PM)
Frater:. I am most impressed; welcome to the Grand Lodge. I have a lot more info re: vodou and masonry we can share together, overtime.

until then, to the EAST!

Frater Gede
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 17, 2007 03:59PM)
I think what Keith said has merit - a budding bizarrist is likely to read, early in his search for resources, the very material that he mentioned - the stuff that just isn't do-able and never was. A lot of that stuff found it's way into Compleat Invocation, for example. A good many of those effects were more fantasy and mental exercise than anything viable, so it's far to warn a newb about them; (although most would probably suspect this themselves, especially when the instructions call for distilling sulphuric acid and making your own flash poster board or something.)
Fortunately the newer generation of books are far more practical.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 17, 2007 04:21PM)
Exactly as I stated beloved. the tomes o' old are mis leading oft'times, but lo! the new generation hath sprung to re-fresh, re-new, re-birth, re-cycle the old....love!

indeed, he has merit, for he's a fellow Mage. :)
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 17, 2007 04:24PM)
Did you know that even asking a chemical company the price for nitric acid, and sulphuric acid for making flash paper gets you put on a watched list for homeland security. I just found out the hard way, and I couldn't be more serious.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (May 17, 2007 04:27PM)
I'm sorry, who are you?
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 17, 2007 08:51PM)
How odd.. and yet, when you have 20 or 30 strange, 6 ft long mounds of fresh earth in your back yard at any given time, no once hardly notices ..

I'd like to thank the local Geek Squad particularly for helping my babies to grow ..

:bat:
Message: Posted by: Bill Fienning (May 17, 2007 09:56PM)
My thoughts for Sleightofand:

Bizarre is not an easy genre. If you are coming from a sleight of hand background (as it seems from your name), bizarre is completely different. In general, sleights are minimal and usually not the most difficult. Proper presentation is really tough. Often the magical principles are simple (like Buddha papers or a double lift). However, much effort is placed in obscuring the method and displacing audience interest to the story, NOT the method. This is an important distinction between "regular" magic and bizarre.

Not only do I never want to be caught doing a sleight, but I never want anyone to even suspect that I am able to do a sleight. But in fact, I resort to sleights, mechanicals, deviously misleading patter, and any other subterfuge that will achieve my goal.

Definitely, you want to develop your own style. You will want to shape and create your stories to fit your personality/character and background. This may take a while. Initially, you might more comfortable adhering more closely to your source material.

Finally, as a bizarrist, you will find that you really are not being chased. People will accept things in the context of a story that would be challenged if you were a regular magician. I have some interesting examples of this in my repertoire.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 17, 2007 10:27PM)
P E R F E C T......thanx good Mage...
Message: Posted by: Katterfel22 (May 17, 2007 11:10PM)
Sleightofhand, instead of looking for books that are strictly "bizarre magic", you might first want to look to more common magical books you already own.
The tarbell series, Sach's Sleight of Hand, and Henning Nelm's Magic and Showmanship
all have effects that can be used in the bizarre field of magic.
I would suggest that you start with magic books you already have, read through these forums (it is an excellent place to get a feel for what a bizarre routine should look like) and perform some effects using that information. See how it fits.
Then, if you still love the idea of performing as a bizarrist, go and make the investment in the more specialized bizarrist material.
Hope this helps.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 17, 2007 11:30PM)
TRUTH!
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 18, 2007 12:04AM)
I think it may be a good time to point out (just in case the stereotype rears it's ugly head) that Bizarre is not all about the props, either. Props are certainly a big part of the scene (usually, but not always), but the mere substitution of tarot cards for a normal bicycle deck doth not a bizarre effect make.
Same goes for skull caps and eyeballs for your cups'n'balls routine, although you'd probably get complimented on the props for aethetics' sake. ;)

I hestitate to even say that the "story" is the center of focus, as not all bizarre is necessarily story driven, although a great deal of it is.

I'd say instead that "context" is key. You're not "performing" or entertaining with a magic trick; but rather, you're displaying, experimenting with, or enlightening through the revelation of some relatively unknown facet of nature, previously well hidden under some unswept corner of the carpet of existence.
Message: Posted by: chmara (May 18, 2007 12:59AM)
Sorry for typo - it is hard typing while hanging from the ceiling.

Here's the thing in Bizarre. To me, there is nothing more real world bizarre then a guy walking out on a stage in Tails and pulling a dove from his (fill in the blank) then making a cane that no one would use today fly around his head or body. People today MIGHT respond to a flying walker better.....

All bizarre is not dark -- although in our society an element of danger or foreboding does draw attention as part of the drama. But, I do not consider Hippity Hop Vampires and the same vein as I might a living and dead test with a dark story.

One question I feel we must ask is what do WE as artists fear in real life -- aging, death, being alone, afraid of the dark, sudden noises or drops, isolation, or maybe just thought and quiet footsteps behind us on a dark street when we know the next block has no lights.

Tying those feelings together with routines and props into our own story -- a mini-drama or play -- with all the hallmarks of theater in each routine or presentation is the true work. And it ain't easy. For instance -- the Mummy in my generations was a horror movie -- but in this generations the Brandon Frasier movies were special effects thrillers that were mostly funny-horror. How do we use an Egyptian setting if we wish to overcome in a younger audiences' mind those laugh moments in those newer movies?

I believe that Christian has found one major character who can work in our area in the broadest sense -- that of "Curator." Wizards come and Wizards go, but curators collect (and display) their remains.

So, for me the eccentricities of character come before effects, just as rehearsal comes before performance.
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 18, 2007 02:34AM)
Strongly agree with the above. Also, we must consider the zeitgeist. Fears these days are often more concrete in concept, but still as unlikely and nebulous as, say, demonic possession, for example. EG terrorism, biological disaster, super-flu etc.
Fear may also be approached from a psychological point of view or an exploration of our primitive minds, with the magician appearing as experimenter/anthropologist (indeed this is my own character/silent scripting).
As a final example, one of my favourite performances is gaucci's Boddy Language, tied up in a tale about the Hassassin going after a liberal Muslim Sultan (based on fact) and combinming it with the modern study of Body language and defence security ( kind of fact based), ending with the origin of the term 'Black-balling' (complete tosh!).
Compare this to the exact same effect presented completely differently by Borodin.
The end result should be engagement with an intelligent audience above all.
Just my tuppence worth!
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 18, 2007 05:26AM)
I am beginning to realise that, if the collected wisdom from many of the postings here (particularly this one at the moment), were gathered together, a king's ransom would be the outcome.

Ian
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 18, 2007 12:00PM)
Not to beat up on Gregg Chamara's language skills, (lol )but, there is a [i]huge[/i] difference in saying, "All Bizarre is not dark" , and what I think he meant, which is, "Not all Bizarre is dark".
The former essentially says that [i]no[/i] bizarre is dark, because it clearly states that ALL bizarre is NOT dark; therefore it must all be light or neutral.
It's just like saying "ALL cats have babies called kittens" or "All cats do not have babies called puppies", (both true) because both statements are absolute, they are talking about ALL cats; All cat's babie's are called kittens, none are called puppies; The earlier statement was about ALL bizarre magic.

It may seem like a simple grammatical nitpick, akin to pointing out a silly spelling error (which I don't do !) but this is one language gaff that isn't minor; it substantially alters the meaning of the intended message.

It's okay though Gregg, I understand what it's like when you hang from the ceiling, and all that blood rushes to your head and makes it feel like it's going to explode.
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 18, 2007 12:01PM)
Docsteve, what is it about Blackballing that is "tosh"
I'd be interesting in hearing. The term "Blackballing" is more than a concept, it is an everyday, or at least an every month reality in my Lodge.
Message: Posted by: chmara (May 18, 2007 01:55PM)
Mystician -

No offense taken -- as a writer I am used to editors -- and I have always subscribed to the Mark Twain addage to use English as she is spoken.......

Now Spelling -- I go to George Bernard Shaw's fish as my source -- Ghoti......LOL
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 18, 2007 02:05PM)
In my story I tell the audience that the term 'Blackballed' comes from the H'assassins selection for a killer on a particular job; the patter runs like this: "The cell-like structure of the ancient Hassissin was remarkably similar to modern day Al-Quaeda, with 5 Hassinin's meeting to select pebbles from a goat-skin sack. The drawer of the black pebble was the one to be the killer. In that way even his comrades would never know for sure who was to carry out the killing, thus ensuring security & secrecy within the cell itself. It was from this chilling ritual the term 'blackballing' - you know, 'to blackball' someone - came about."

In actual fact, the use of a black or white ball/stone to signify 'yay or nay' in a vote has been around for literally thousands of years, but only as just that - a yes or no vote. It's never been used to select a killer from a cell of 5, as far as I know, but I needed a neat & credible sounding tale for the modus operandi of the gaucci effect! It's my usage in this particular tale that's tosh!

As for the Hassissins, the parallels between them & modern day fanatics are genuinely chilling, and I believe that this does help make an old story resonate deeper with today's audience.

As a further tuppenceworth, now that I'm babbling, another good device for testing the zeitgeist is to look at 1) who the 'baddies' are in hollywood blockbusters (at present mainly arabs & aliens!) and 2) what are the horror films about.
Interested readers are advised to read Stephen King's analytical ( and hugely enjoyable) work Danse Macarbre (Jaws is a metaphor for a parent's fear of childhood disease and/or abduction - discuss).
For a terrufying yet intelligent discussion on organised ALL religious fanatiscism (East & West) I suggest Sam Harris's "The End of Faith".

Phew. Don't I sound preachy. I'll just slide offa this high-horse of mine, and have a nice camomile tea...

Best
Steve
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 18, 2007 05:04PM)
Okay, so how did "low-balling" come about ?

egregor, careful now - you don't wanna get banned ! :evilgrin:
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 18, 2007 05:31PM)
Jeez, Myst! I thought I was pedantic! ;)

Bill
Message: Posted by: sleightofand (May 18, 2007 05:38PM)
Thanks guys for the advice, much appreciaited.
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 18, 2007 06:51PM)
In my world, low-balling means, The angle of the dangle is directly proportional to the seam of the crotch. Hahahahaha
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 18, 2007 08:06PM)
Watch your language, Egregore. The next thing you know, you'll be dangling your participle!

Bill
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 18, 2007 08:39PM)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/low-balling

So what's teabagging then?
(there goes the neighbourhood)
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 18, 2007 11:05PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-18 18:31, Bill Ligon wrote:
Jeez, Myst! I thought I was pedantic! ;)

Bill
[/quote]

You are - :P
You pointed out a tiny typo - I pointed out a significant grammatical error that essentially changes the actual intended meaning of the sentence.

And for Mr. Mark Twain's edification, I say: just because some people speak that way doesn't make it right either; they're speaking very poorly ! No wonder communication is a lost art these days. The more that people butcher the language, the worse it gets.

I give up on English, for the most part though; being the mutt language that it is, with far more exceptions to the rules than rules themselves, it's time for a brand new, logical language, born of common sense - and no, Esperanto doesn't cut it either, it's too based on Latin/romance languages.
It's time for something completely new, built from scratch. Anybody got a free weekend to kill ? :bwink:

okay, I'm done going off topic now ..
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 18, 2007 11:10PM)
Klingon.
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 18, 2007 11:40PM)
Believe it or not, that occurred to me, but I also realized that I don't know anything about klingon, or it's derivation.

I don't think I'd really want to speak a language that sounds like a catfight though - I mean, German is bad enough !
:rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Black Hart (May 19, 2007 07:18AM)
[quote]I think youre stuck in the 60's and 70's when you charge bizzare magick thus, with authors like andruzzi, cameron etc. But do you not perform the magick you write?[/quote]

Indeed I do, and I pride myself that all the items in the Black Artefacts store are thus.

However, as a person who does perform this genre for real people (not the mythical 'group of friends gathered at the mages home' one so often reads about) who pay for the privilege I can spot an 'unperformable' effect from a mile off. Believe me there are [b]many[/b] such effects and presentations still appearing in internet forums and print. I think that most of the stuff I see published is not commercial.

There is nothing wrong in producing such ideas of fancy, it is indeed as legitimate a hobby as any other - however, those new to this genre and who are seeking real life working effects need to be aware of this.

In the end we need to remember that we are in an 'entertainment' industry.

Keith Hart
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 19, 2007 10:35AM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-19 08:18, Black Hart wrote:


In the end we need to remember that we are in an 'entertainment' industry.

Keith Hart
[/quote]

in-deed.

as for myself, I admit that although I perform every single effect I offer here, or in books, when it comes to gigs, I oft' tone it down, as my venues are schools, detention centers and such. In short, I do my bizarre work, but sometimes forced to leave the skull and blood at home for a more intimate time.

also, Bizarre magic on stage just doesn't work for me. what ive seen just doesn't give that needed intimate ambience I feel is necessary for a true bizarre effect. just my opine.

thanx, peace

Baba
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 19, 2007 02:03PM)
This is exactly why I really only do magic on Halloween - I already have a reason to invite my friends and neighbors to my home for an intimate setting, plus there's the whole Celtic/Druidic "[i]The veil between the living the dead is thinnest at this time[/i]" thing that I can play on.
It takes the "tee-hee, this is just a halloween stunt" mindset and hopefully, (if I'm successful) changes it to something of a history education, and then forces more open acceptance of the possibility of things that go bump in the night. I don't charge for my parties, nor will I, when I expand them to doing full tarot and palm readings and more intense magic effects, seances, etc.
I have no intention of ever going pro or commercial, and I like that, because it enables me to be as true to the original spirit of bizarre as possible.
Like I've always said, I'm just a Halloween freak - one who discovered a genre of magic that fits him like a glove.

Naturally, the whole plastic bats thing, crass commercialism, and all that jazz, tends to work against me too, but by sticking to the historical basis for Halloween and giving everyone a little education, it can be overcome for most.
It's not that difficult, depending on the person, to swing the pendulum from "oh, it's a silly holiday" to "oh crap, is this for real ..?"; some people seem to be on the fence the whole time anyway, laughing nervously at first, and then getting geniunely spooked a moment later. Even with my limited past experience, I've seen that already.
It helps that everyone who knows me knows me as "a little weird" anyway.
;)
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 19, 2007 02:54PM)
Very interesting take on performing, Myst. I especially like the comment on staying true to the original spirit of bizarre. I love Hallowe'en, too, in spite of the commercialism and the plastic bats.

What I am trying to say is that your post was an interesting one (considering it came from a pedant :phhhhhht: ).
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 19, 2007 03:29PM)
I think this is probably the most fascinating debate I've ever had on magic, bar none.
Isn't the 'definition' of Bizarre magic one where the effect is apparently acheived by a force external to the performer (usually therefore supernatural, but as Myst says, not ALWAYS dark)?
However, I think most of us writing here are arguing for, and believe in, something more intelligent and emotional than the stereotypical bizarre act of cobwebs, skulls and the like (although they definately have their place). Surely that can be true to the spirit, AND commercial? Sure it'll never be 'big box office', but then I'd rather be 'Cult' than 'Mainstream'.
And why oh why oh why would anyone with powers CHOOSE to produce red sponge balls??? If it's not good enough for Sai Baba...
Cheers
Steve .
(hair is misdirection)
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 19, 2007 03:55PM)
"...why would anyone with powers CHOOSE to produce red sponge balls???"

Probably because the Black ones are harder to find, thus cost more.
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 19, 2007 04:02PM)
There you go with your racism again.....black balls rule! sponge balls, that is.......

Baba
president of the NAACSB (NAT. ASSOC. FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED SPONGE BALLS)
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 19, 2007 04:04PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-19 16:29, docsteve wrote:
I think this is probably the most fascinating debate I've ever had on magic, bar none.
[/quote]

It just ended with Doug & Baba! ;-)
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 19, 2007 04:59PM)
Haha. We have been known to do that. BUT I was serious!

Bubba...I mean Baba was being simply mean and diversionary. Black sponge balls comprise just 12% of the population thus ARE harder to find and yes more expensive. Red sponge balls are coming in by the boat load. Yes Black Sponge Balls do rule...and they have papers too. The NAOCSB or what ever the hell he claimed it was is a bogus splinter group that has even been known to put actual splinters in unassuming Red sponge balls.

For newbies, I am the least racist person Bubba...uh Baba knows and thus he is confused on occasion. That's ok. Like my real kids, he never calls me.
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 19, 2007 05:04PM)
The health fascists are at it again and have apparently banned blue Smarties on some medical ground or another, so producing them would be truly impressive. I can't see how this would be bizarre magic though, but I wouldn't rule it out because there are some pretty inventive people here.

Ian
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 19, 2007 05:04PM)
Therefore, Baba..I assume.. yellow balls are cheapest in Asia, and white balls have saturated the market in North America and Europe. ..?
Blue balls, are, of course, a small fortune.
However, Amazonian balls, no matter what color, are extremely expensive due to their rarity. ;)
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 19, 2007 05:09PM)
And A.I.M. might take issue with unfavourable comparisons between the red and the black (that's American Indigo-spongeball Movement in case you were wondering). If you think this is pretty corny - you're not wrong, but I would plead in my defence that an Englishman knowing the acronym A.I.M. deserves a break sometimes.

Ian
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 19, 2007 05:13PM)
And I'm also colour-blind.

Ian
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 19, 2007 05:51PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-19 16:29, docsteve wrote:
I think this is probably the most fascinating debate I've ever had on magic, bar none.

Cheers
Steve .
(hair is misdirection)

[/quote]

"Intellectually stimulating" I calls it.

I would like to hear what the Rev. Al Sharpton has to say about all this.

Nal
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 19, 2007 06:46PM)
OK ok...let's forget Red and Black Balls if it will be so misrecieved (that's a word I made up 'cause I can't spell misinterperted I don't think.) and Mystician's Blue Balls put it in another direction.

I will now appologize to the OP that my little one liner caused the thread to de-rail. I was only trying to rescue docsteve from a bout of 'too much information'.

Please forgive me. (but not you Bubba)
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (May 19, 2007 07:23PM)
Re: Black balls and splinters. The good Baba ,or the doctor may correct things.
Isn't the term sphinter to be used instead of splinter. I know I worked for years to strengthen mine; so I might do a no gimmick version of Zombie.

Sphinter muscel, that is.
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 19, 2007 08:36PM)
It's Sphincter and no we don't care about that either.


Geesh.
Message: Posted by: KOTAH (May 19, 2007 08:58PM)
Sphincter. For a man who claims he can't spell, misinterperted , that is imnpressive ! Anyone starting a thread on crystal balls ?
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (May 19, 2007 09:02PM)
KRAP, here we go again! :)
Message: Posted by: Gede Nibo (May 19, 2007 10:03PM)
At least we waited till the guy said "thanx for the advice"...that automatically turns it into a free for all, IMO......hahahaha

and doug, embarrassed to say..........................the number keeps gettin' deleted............plus, I'm a lazy ne'er do well.....but always thinkin of ya......not like that, but you know.....

anyhow my sponge ball joke was one of the funniest moments here, don't care who yar....

and, anybody else feel like we need our own reality show???
Message: Posted by: docsteve (May 19, 2007 11:02PM)
'Unreality show', surely.
Anyway I'm off to Disney for 4 days (Paris; was in denver, co, last week, and can't take another bout of jet lag!). How Bizarre is that? And as Doug hints - I really need a holiday!
Blessing to all
Steve
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 19, 2007 11:20PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-19 23:03, Gede Nibo wrote:
At least we waited till the guy said "thanx for the advice"...that automatically turns it into a free for all, IMO......hahahaha

[/quote]

So true .. ;)
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 20, 2007 01:04AM)
Well of course! We are not Barbarians!
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 20, 2007 01:33AM)
I'm a bavarian,
yeah, yeah, yeah, I know where is it, mom keeps shooting it down.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (May 20, 2007 01:38AM)
The closest I ever came to a Bavarian was a Bavarian Cream donut. :donut4:
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 20, 2007 02:04AM)
When Ghengis Kink and his 200,000 Ballbearings came roaring over the hill on tiny ponies...one might get the true picture of Bizarre.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (May 20, 2007 02:17AM)
Ich bin ein Berliner.
Message: Posted by: billyboy1957 (May 20, 2007 03:45AM)
Does that make you a donut or a doughnut (surely not a President?)

Ian
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 20, 2007 06:26AM)
Dog Nut.
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 20, 2007 10:29AM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-20 03:04, Doug Higley wrote:
When Ghengis Kink and his 200,000 Ballbearings came roaring over the hill on tiny ponies...one might get the true picture of Bizarre.
[/quote]

Now, that is truly bizarre!

<singing> "This is the dawning of the Age of Bavaria, the Age of Bavariaaaaa."

Bill
Message: Posted by: SeaDawg (May 20, 2007 06:47PM)
Previous posts alluded to the scarcity of "Blue Balls"? They obviously have not checked out enough high school dances where the phenomena reaches epidemic proportions.... LOL
Message: Posted by: Silvertongue (May 20, 2007 10:07PM)
I think if its not been said... charater development, good scripting, acting ability, the knowledge of this and much more... I would start collecting bizarre and interesting object off the net and flea markets now in the hope to develop a story around it, bags, boxes, books, coins, crucifix's, the list can be endless... read anything and everything study the greats they are mentioned abound within these tomes... study nlp, linguistics, religion, mythology, fairytales( I have lived in borders and barnes and nobles for the last 4 years...) know things about the human race most of the race doesn't know... suggestion, hypnosis... I mention nlp again because if you study into it deeply some very special insights are gained into the human psyche... milton errickson is a grandmaster of the art of magic in such a profoundly different way... be interesting that's why its good to read alot... this was my path into bizarre magic... the internet has been a great fountain of knowledge and bizarre gifts... and finally but I could say a billion things more and will I'm sure,. write all your idea's down have a notepad everywhere because inspiration can come in a heartbeat and in that heartbeat you must be prepared to nurture your own idea's and watch them grow... write down, print off, save in your favourites anything that means something to you as a person and you as a performer... turn those note books into folders and then those folders into files then you are on the path to becoming a bizarre magician... btw I have 7 full notepads, 2 folders and a huge repositary of the bizzare on my computer... a veritable shmorgesboard of links for research that has taken many hours to collect and read...
so turn your mind to the bizarre and watch your magic change and your life too... this type of magical performance will touch people in the most amazing ways I have proof... I rejoice for you there is no higher path in our art than the one you are about to tread and it is as yet only beginning to be explored... you arrive at an exciting time... good luck...
Message: Posted by: egregor (May 21, 2007 12:14AM)
I agree wholeheartedly, last year when my hard drive crashed I spent $300.00 for a specialist just to get my favorites folder off the old drive. I consider it only a tiny investment, I backup that file daily now. That file represented years of research on the Bizarre.
Message: Posted by: Silvertongue (May 21, 2007 12:21AM)
Mine has 7 years of links which is added to definatly on a weekly basis' oh the wonders the web doth weave' it is invaluable as a research tool... anything you wanna know... anything...
Message: Posted by: Mystician (May 21, 2007 01:20PM)
You two are making me nervous.. I should probably copy my bookmarks.html file up to my site again. (love Firefox !)
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (May 21, 2007 02:01PM)
Many "bizarrists" think that most of what it takes, is voice tricks. They slow down the pace of their speaking by about 50%, and try to speak an octave lower than their physical ability allows. And they take 20 minutes to do a card trick that should maybe take 4.

Others follow the saying of Ishmael Reed..."Every man is an artist, and every artist a priest."

Others learn to tell a good story, that engages their audience' imagination, makes them feel involved, makes them walk the lip of madness, and possibly back.

Some, don't bring them back. They slip and fall, and are never seen again.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (May 21, 2007 03:56PM)
Say it isn't so De, 4 years in a bookstore... One of the things that frustrates the 7734 out of me and sessip me off to no end is buying a book, taking it home, and dscovering food bits, coffee stains, and other nasty little things done to my "new book" by those who treat the books stores as a library, spending days reading at their leasure instead of buying, devaluing and ruining the experieces we buyers pay for.

You're not a BOOKBUM are you?

Tony
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 21, 2007 04:04PM)
Where might I ask are you putting all that accumulated 'knowledge' to work? I'll but a ticket. Do you have a lecture tour planned?
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 21, 2007 09:57PM)
Declanring, I have been a Buddhist since before you were born, and while I appreciate that you have studied the Dharma, I can see that your studies, rather than humbling you, have only strengthened the hold your ego has on you. I enjoyed some of the things you have posted, but I am afraid that you are now displaying a very un-Buddhist arrogance. I am really sorry to see this in you as I was hoping you would contribute intelligently to these discussions.

Milarepa is spelled M I L A R E (S) P A.

Bodhisattva is spelled B O D H I S A T T V A

Oh, and your BODHICHITTA...

You say you read a lot. I am certain that what you have read is only a BIJA compared to what others here have read.

You remind me of the story of two Buddhist monks walking together. They came upon a young lady having difficulty crossing a stream. One of the monks hoisted her on his back and carried her across.

The two continued to travel in silence for some distance when the other spoke. "You should not have carried that girl across the stream," said he. "You know we are not allowed to touch women." The first replied, "Put her down! I carried her just across the stream, but you are still carrying her!"

Tashi delek,
Bill
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 21, 2007 10:11PM)
What is the point of deleting those messages? It seems truly pointless.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Silvertongue (May 21, 2007 10:19PM)
Right... this seems to have become almost personal... I started off talkin of the fountain, the hand, and a few other topics when off the topics people have asked me my credentials or condecending with how to spell stuff or just generally making wirey comments... I at no point said I know more than anyone... on this site these comments come off a' who do think you are, dogs peein on a post kinda crap... I had never heard of any of you before I came on this site... I'm glad your all famous to each though...
I wanna talk about magic not me spankyou
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 21, 2007 10:27PM)
[quote]
On 2007-05-21 23:19, declanring wrote:
I had never heard of any of you before I came on this site... I'm glad your all famous to each though...

[/quote]

Then obviously you are not as well-read as you claim.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Bill Ligon (May 21, 2007 11:07PM)
You still don't see why people got upset. You yelled in three posts, doing so even after it was pointed out to you how this was a breach of etiquette, and you arrogantly attacked Kay in a childish and unprovoked diatribe over a prop. You acted with complete disrespect for those far more knowledgeable and experienced than yourself, and you remain completely unrepentant and only wish to defend your objectionable actions.

Bill
Message: Posted by: Phil Thomas (May 25, 2007 09:44PM)
Hi Andy,

Might I reccomend "The Book of Haunted Magick" by Rick Maue? There are some very excellent "dark" routines there to suit your fancy and chill your spectator's bones. The workings of the effects are actually quite easy to do, so all you need to do is focus on your presentation. Keep in mind that in bizarre magick, you need to be able to spin a good yarn and let the actor in you come out. Focus hard on your presentation and patter while you work the effect around it and you will succeed.

:cheers:

Phil