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Topic: Gravity flipper or not.....that is the question.....
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 21, 2007 07:19AM)
Does Troy Hooser use a gravity flipper or a regular flipper in his book "Destroyers"? Can you use either? I am going to purchase his book and was curious.....
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (May 21, 2007 07:39AM)
Regular at that time, its before its invention I think
Message: Posted by: jimmyj (May 21, 2007 12:22PM)
Joshua is correct. A regular flipper was being described in Destroyers. Yes, you can use both, but I would suggest using the Gravity Flipper, if you've got one. Much easier to handle.

Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 21, 2007 01:12PM)
Thanks guys, you have been very helpful. I kind of figured the gravity flipper came about after the book, but I wasn't sure. I was mainly concerned if a gravity type flipper would be a problem.....
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 21, 2007 01:18PM)
The flipper and the flopper each have advantages. Depends on what you wish to accomplish.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (May 21, 2007 01:32PM)
Fingers iv used a grav flipper with troys videos works fine. of course I lost mine so its not working so well any more =D
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 21, 2007 02:02PM)
Some of the tricks in the swadling booklet that comes with his double deception have to be reworked to use the flopper. Also the magnetic feature in double decpetion permits some clever options.
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 22, 2007 01:04AM)
I know what you are saying Mr. Townsend, that is why I was asking about it. I appreciate the help. Its good to know these things, so I have an idea of what I am getting myself into.

Sorry to hear about your flipper Barrett, hope you didn't pay too much for it. Thanks for your input.....
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 22, 2007 08:52AM)
For folks who own the Swadling coin set, the mechanics really does allow a clean setup for vanishes done from a fanned display of coins at your fingertips (toss, drop or just a shake ;) )

What the flipper permits which the flopper does not, is the hands off vanish of a coin from under a tabled glass without having to smack/bounce the surface. You could smack/bounce the surface but that's not always possible at someone's glass top coffee table.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (May 22, 2007 08:58AM)
Jon, if I toss, drop my grav flipper, it closes.... so I'm a bit confused to what your saying
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 22, 2007 10:58AM)
The flipper can go from two to one just by letting it go. The flopper needs some more help.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (May 22, 2007 11:42AM)
Ahh you mean like how you can't lay it flat?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 22, 2007 04:23PM)
The flipper will flip unless you keep it flat (rim of glass does nicely) while the flopper will not flip unless you flip it. Sorry... trying to give you a sensible answer while not exposing is tough. :)
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 23, 2007 06:21AM)
I know what you are talking about Mr. Townsend. One of the things you mentioned which "particularly" draws my interest is the application of a flipper/flopper as it applies to a fanned display of coins at your fingertips. I have not been educated in the mechanics of this type application, which I have a "great desire" to acquire and study.....
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (May 23, 2007 07:44AM)
Troy hooser does a lot with a fanned display with the gimmick
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 23, 2007 08:29AM)
The base mechanics for that application has been in print for just under a hundred years and was popularized when David Roth showed his CTT using a folder. The Swadling item uses the flipper to go "one better" and his double deception has the opening mechanics facilitated by the magnetic features.

Aside from Swadling's use of electromagnetism to save an abrupt motion to use inertia at an awkward moment this stuff is pretty much incremental improvements on what Hoffmann suggested way back in "More Magic". Imagine all the time and money you could save just by reading a few good books. :)
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 23, 2007 08:46AM)
Thanks guys, my eyes are opening wider. This is one area I haven't worked on as of yet, but I intend on doing so.

I am sure I will be asking a lot of questions in the near future along these lines and I hope you will be as gracious as in the past in directing me on the right path Mr. Townsend. I know your knowledge in this arena is unsurpassed. I am definately going to want to tap that knowledge. You have already answered some of my questions in just the few lines above and I appreciate it.....
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (May 23, 2007 08:49AM)
I recently got a flopper again, and a great routine with it it think is fire coins re-lit from eric jones. iv been mad I couldn't do it for some time after losing my first one
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 23, 2007 08:16PM)
Glad to hear you have a new "flopper". Haven't seen that routine, but it sounds good.....
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 23, 2007 09:21PM)
Where the flipper will flip if left on to its nature, the flopper will safely show two even on a volunteer's hand. And so the wise are well advised to use both where appropriate which is most of the time - and ask for the Swadling option when you can. ;)
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 24, 2007 06:31AM)
I use a "flopper" in a spectator's hand when I perform a routine by Dan Watkins called "4 Coins Your Hands". It is a great routine, it tends to make the spectators eye bulge! You have to be real careful with spectator management there though. However, if you perform the routine properly and as taught, spectator management isn't really a problem.

I guess you learn something every day. I didn't even know there was a "Swadling" option. You got me on that one Mr. Townsend. I definately will have to check into that. I have no idea what I could be missing here.....
Message: Posted by: nitrous_doc (May 26, 2007 08:32PM)
Hi there guys,

I'm trying to find some direction to head toward making my own gaffed coins. Strictly hobby stuff. I'm a physician by trade and do magic for kids in the perioperative period.

I'm not having a lot of luck finding information on how gaffed coins are actually made. I can think of some ways to make simple things like double backs and I think a shell could be pressed with some hard urethane foam onto a coin but making a scotch and soda would be a treat! I imagine that effect alone would answer a lot of questions about the basics of gaffed coin work.

Any information would be appreciated.

Take care,
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 27, 2007 05:09AM)
Hi Doug, welcome to the Café! Making your own gaffed coins would be quite a hobby, not an easy task. Hope you have a machine shop handy. I think you might be able to get some inkling here to some of the basics of gaffed coin making searching the various threads, but I don't think they would get too involved or specific. I myself have enough trouble figuring out how to use them, much less make them. Wish I could be of help to you, but I wish you all the luck in your quest.....
Message: Posted by: nitrous_doc (May 29, 2007 10:36AM)
Yes, I have a metal shop in my basement and am always looking for something interesting to do with it. I'm hoping to 'fall upon' some kind hearted soul who would have some of the basics to share. Making the shells isn't too hard. Pressing with a moderately hard urethane block distributes the pressure on sheet steel (later plated with copper) or sheet copper if a metal coin isn't required. The precision machining to get the inserts to fit exactly is, I'm guessing, a little more than precision machining although that is undoubtedly part of it.

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 29, 2007 10:42AM)
Phil Postma, the inventor of the gaff would likely be the person to ASK about making his invention. Other gaffs, from the expanded and non-expanded ] are almost in the public domain per-se as are the copper and silver composites.

Let's move this discussion off to the do-it-yourself side okay?

As to making flippers or floppers... I would guess the flopper would be a little easier.
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (May 29, 2007 07:46PM)
How much is the cheepest gravity flipper?
Message: Posted by: Fingers (May 30, 2007 05:04AM)
Wow Doug, I was kidding about the metal shop, but if you do have the equipment I would listen to what Mr. Townsend has to say about it.

I'm not too sure there is such a thing as a cheap "gravity" flipper. I paid $95 for mine from the Schoolcraft site. Originally I purchased what I would call a "regular" or "non-gravity" flipper that cost me about $25, but it was a piece of junk in my opinion, which led me to get the gravity flipper I have now.....
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (May 31, 2007 04:07PM)
I thought the gravity flippers were around 200 dollars. What other gravity flippers exist besides the dollar coins?
Message: Posted by: tbaer (May 31, 2007 04:17PM)
On 2007-05-31 17:07, THEGUY26 wrote:
I thought the gravity flippers were around 200 dollars. What other gravity flippers exist besides the dollar coins?

They are for the dollar coins, the half dollars are around $150.00
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (May 31, 2007 04:23PM)
Wow. That's a little too expensive. I'm not too much of a coin worker.
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Jun 1, 2007 05:28AM)
I have found that coin magic is an art, which requires a lot of hard work and dedication THEGUY26. Its not for everyone and if you aren't willing to fulfill the requirements, then you shouldn't pay the price, no brag, just fact.....
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 1, 2007 06:45AM)
Yeah, that's why some of us invented the EG and DBC sleights ... just in case we dropped our coins. ;)

You want to see a muggle's eyes go WIDE with amazement, drop a coin gaff on the floor and when it explodes into pieces and rubber bands and stuff...
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Jun 2, 2007 05:20AM)
Ha, not sure I would want to see that Mr. Townsend. By the way I PMed you with a link, but I am not sure it went through.....
Message: Posted by: THEGUY26 (Will Swanson) (Jun 2, 2007 01:43PM)
On 2007-06-01 06:28, Fingers wrote:
I have found that coin magic is an art, which requires a lot of hard work and dedication THEGUY26. Its not for everyone and if you aren't willing to fulfill the requirements, then you shouldn't pay the price, no brag, just fact.....

Yeah, your right. I don't do much coins, I do cards and such. I feel like I am really bad at coin magic, because I can just barely do a Goshman Pinch.
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Jun 3, 2007 05:35AM)
I am not sure I would use the Goshman Pinch as a standard to measure how good a coin man I was THEGUY26. I think cards are great, but what I will say about coins is it isn't worth spending a good sum of money unless you plan on putting in the work and time required to get the results necessary to get your moneys worth.....
Message: Posted by: lubdub (Jun 3, 2007 12:44PM)
I perfer my gravity flipper. It allows the moves to look so much smoother and allows better routines(check out coin man walking). I also like the fact that my schoolcraft is shimmed by jamie(all of the schoolcraft's are shimmed). And the insert looks more realalistic. Another point is the bands on gravity flippers last sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much long and are a lot easier to replace(in my opinion).

Hope this helps,
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Jun 4, 2007 06:57AM)
I have one of Jamie's gravity flippers(Walking Liberty) and I totally agree with you Jordan.....
Message: Posted by: Jaxon (Jun 12, 2007 02:04PM)
First let me tell you that a friend of mine has one of the Gravity Flipper coins and they are great.

However, I don't own one. Here's why. A little over 15 years ago when I started doing my Flip-M-out routine (The flipper wasn't as known then) I ran into the problem of secretly opening the flipper. I eventually found a solution. It turns any flipper coin into what's now known as a gravity flipper. The solution was simple. I went ot my local Dental Supply warehouse and picked up rubber bands that where larger in diameter and thinner (1/4" lite or Medium grade). They have less tension on them so it makes the flipper easier to open.

I made this short webcam video demonstrating the difference between a flipper with the bands that come with them and a flipper with the lighter grade band.

You can watch the video [url=http://flixn.com/play/c9lyu5/]here[/url].

Both of these are the cheaper flipper coins (Sasco) and it's what I use because I slam the coins on the table during my routine. I don't like to use my Lassen coin for my Flip-M-Out routine but I use Lassens for other routines.

Ron Jaxon
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 12, 2007 02:29PM)
So a bigger band makes your flipper floppy?
Message: Posted by: Jaxon (Jun 12, 2007 05:04PM)
Yea, that's what I'll call them. [b]Flipper Floppy bands[/b].. :)

Ron Jaxon
Message: Posted by: jimmyj (Jun 12, 2007 05:24PM)
Good one Jonathan. Not sure if I'd like too many things floppy though. Ron is, of course, right. I too have experimented with different gauges of these rubber bands( they're used for orthodontic braces). Problem;

1/ I had to buy 1000 lots-$25.00 Canadian. I'm impatient and didn't want to wait for a delivery from the States. Bought them in town.

2/ They come in 12 different gauges. Ive got 4 different flippers/floppers. Kennedy's, Walking Liberty's, Twoonies and an Eisenhower. No Morgan yet.

3/ By the end of this escapade, I was just about ready to pull my hair out.

Ron's right. It can be done. Have patience and you'll find the right bands for the right coins. I've heard,and tried 1/8 light for halves, 3/16 mediums for halves, 1/4 light for halves, 1/4 lights for dollars, 1/4 mediums for dollars, etc. They even have 3/8ths. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh. I've destroyed two flippers, a half and an Eisenhower, thank God not my Schoolcraft, f$#@*&g around with these band combinations. I hope you have better luck, and patience, than I do.

I just hope that I don't break a band anytime soon, because I've got a drawer full of them.
Message: Posted by: Jaxon (Jun 12, 2007 05:43PM)
Yea, I haven't experimented with any other coin but a half dollar. My favorite is the 1/4" medium grade. I don't feel much difference between the lite and the medium but the medium seems to last longer.

I also just picked up some of the non-latex type. They sell it to dentists because of people who are allergic to latex. It also said they have "longer shelf life" then latex. So I picked up a box of them. As Jim just mentioned I had to order a large quantity of them. So far after a couple of weeks of testing they seem very nice. Of course two weeks isn't long enough to really test how long they'll last but so far so good. Changing the band every couple of weeks don't take long anyway.

I don't know. Should I make them available on my site? I don't plan to make money off it really. Just two or three dollars a bag (Bag contains about 100 bands) for shipping. Like Jim, I have more then I need right now anyway.

Ron Jaxon
Message: Posted by: Fingers (Jun 13, 2007 06:19AM)
Geeze, you guys with the rubber bands sure have more patience than I do. I have my one Walking Liberty flopper for about a year now and I use it everyday mostly and I haven't needed a rubber band yet. This is good, because I have never changed one and I don't picture it as being too much fun.....
Message: Posted by: jimmyj (Jun 13, 2007 06:56AM)
Ron-that would be a great idea, to sell the bands on your site. I do know of about three places that sell 100 bands per bag, Roy Kueppers being one of them. If you've got this down to a relative science, meaning the different gauges, I say go for it. And the price is usually $3.00 per 100. Besides, it might bring in more traffic to your site. Fingers- I bet you've got a Schoolcraft Walking Liberty. Because of their construction, as opposed to "standard" flippers, they are more forgiving on the bands, and the bands last longer. Not as much strain. I'm sure you knew that already.

Message: Posted by: Fingers (Jun 13, 2007 08:41AM)
You have it right Jim, it is Schoolcraft. I am glad you said what you did, my eyes aren't the best anymore and I dread the day I will have to change the rubber band. Maybe you guys could start up a band replacement service, ha.....