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Topic: New Room for Non-Believers
Message: Posted by: Dan Paulus (Jun 12, 2007 10:02AM)
This came up in one of the gospel magic rooms.
How about a room where non-believers can discuss magic as it relates to science and philosophy and even how it effected ancient (and modern) religions with out having to be "saved"?
Would be fascinating.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Jun 12, 2007 11:24PM)
Some might say that would fit in the Bizarre magic thread. I say it would fit well in the "Food for thought" section.
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Jun 15, 2007 05:07PM)
[quote]
On 2007-06-12 11:02, Dan Paulus wrote:
This came up in one of the gospel magic rooms.
How about a room where non-believers can discuss magic as it relates to science and philosophy and even how it effected ancient (and modern) religions with out having to be "saved"?
Would be fascinating.
[/quote]

Dan,

I don't really know if another room is necessary. The truth is, that the magic mentioned in the Bible is not about the common conjuror. Whether you get saved is between you and God.
Message: Posted by: cfrye (Jun 15, 2007 06:21PM)
Steven,

It wouldn't be a room *against* religion, it would be a room for the positive discussion of magic and how it relates to scientific inquiry and philosophy.



Curt
Message: Posted by: Dan Paulus (Jun 16, 2007 10:37AM)
[quote]
On 2007-06-15 19:21, cfrye wrote:
Steven,

It wouldn't be a room *against* religion, it would be a room for the positive discussion of magic and how it relates to scientific inquiry and philosophy.



Curt
[/quote]

True, though it would be open to discussions of how conjuring may have been used to manipulate religious belief, historically or currently.

Example: Believe it or not I attended Seminary for nearly 4 years. Occasionally students would ask such questions as, "How did the pharaoh's magicians turn their staffs into snakes?" And without hesitation the Seminary teachers would answer something along the lines of, "The power of the Devil!"
When in reality, there is an asp in Egypt that will stiffen into an almost hypnotic state if you rub up against it's scales on the underbelly. They will stay in this stiffened state for several minutes, or until they get rudely awakened by being tossed against a hard floor! I've heard that some alligators will do the same thing. But alligators wouldn't pass for sticks.
If this were a discussion in the room for "Free thinkers" we could take it a step further and discuss how it was that Moses changed the staff into a snake.

And though the room would not be for the purpose of bashing any religion, I would like the availability to discuss magicians who do mock religion, such as Barry & Stewart or Penn & Teller, and how we feel about said magicians advancing mankind to where they question religious teachings and at least think, "Hey, maybe there are no fairies in my garden?" without fear of threads being locked out, members being temporarily banned, or having to hear the faithful chime in with, "They need to be saved"

Just as the Café has two rooms devoted praising Jesus and how to spread the word with magic, or how great it feels when your gospel show opens up the eyes of viewer who then opens his heart to Christ, this room could allow discussions on how to use magic to spread the word of Science, Evolution, Philosophy and Reason. And how great it might feel to open the eyes of a devout follower to the fact that the Earth is closer to 5 billion years old, not 6000. And what routines might be used to convey such messages? Is anyone out there doing it? Is there even a market for this kind of magic? Could this kind of message be spread though magic while still showing respect of another's faith?

This is what I have in mind.
Message: Posted by: Dan Paulus (Jun 16, 2007 10:40AM)
[quote]
On 2007-06-15 18:07, Steven Conner wrote:

Dan,

I don't really know if another room is necessary. The truth is, that the magic mentioned in the Bible is not about the common conjuror. Whether you get saved is between you and God.
[/quote]

Now, in the room I have suggested, the exact opposite discussion would be how the "Truth is" that the magic mentioned in the Bible very much IS about the common conjuror.
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Jun 16, 2007 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2007-06-16 11:40, Dan Paulus wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-06-15 18:07, Steven Conner wrote:

Dan,

I don't really know if another room is necessary. The truth is, that the magic mentioned in the Bible is not about the common conjuror. Whether you get saved is between you and God.
[/quote]

Now, in the room I have suggested, the exact opposite discussion would be how the "Truth is" that the magic mentioned in the Bible very much IS about the common conjuror.
[/quote]

Dan you raised a number of issues that I would love to debate; however, the Magic Café is not the place to do such. The discussions in Magic Café IMHO should be limited to magic as how it pertains to performances and not discussions about Creation and Evolution, Abortion or Pro-Life. Dan I mean no disrespect when I say the attending of Seminary does not make one a Believer no more than than changing a light bulb makes one an electrician. The only authority that really matters is God's Word. If you and I, Penn and Teller, and a host of others disagree, its all irrelevant. One thing remains for sure. When we die, we will find out the Truth.

Cordially,
Message: Posted by: Steve Brooks (Jun 17, 2007 03:11AM)
I will need to give this some serious thought...